Cuonzo- ESPN top 100

[HutchwasClutch]

Much like buzz, if c Martin is hired, I'll be pissed. I think MU can do better this time around and the fact a guy like Howland is there proves my point.

That being said, ill still be an MU fan and will hope I'm proven wrong (and admit it) just like I did with Buzz. Think most of us here are like that.

I feel exactly the same way, I'll support him with all I've got, like every MU coach, but I refuse to believe he is the best candidate we can get.  He just screams out mediocrity.

[MUSF]

One down year after a threepeat of Sweet 16's!  Strong recruiting always pays off in the long run.  Are you kidding?  UT's been in the NIT the two years prior to this.

UT also lost their coach three years ago due to NCAA violations. C. Martin didn't exactly inherit a stable program, and yet he has maintained an upward trend.

Anyway, my point wasn't to say that Cuonzo and UT are better than Buzz and MU. I was simply countering the notion that one can determine a coach's success from recruiting rankings.

[GoVols]

My original post was wrong - I thought Stokes committed pre- Cuonzo.

That being said- TWO top 100 recruits in three years?!?!  We've been pulling that many and more per year under Williams.  Great that he landed a couple of top 25-30 kids (Hubbs finished the ranking about 29th, not top 25), but wouldn't a little more consistency be nice?  How low are you going to set the recruiting bar at MU?

Stokes was a very unique case. Pearl and Tony Jones had been recruiting him for three years and his sister attended UT. He transferred high schools and wasn't eligible to play as a Senior. So he graduated early and wanted to enroll immediately and play. His other offers were Memphis and I believe Kentucky. Neither had a free scholarship available at mid-season, Tennessee did. The rest is history

His problem isn't not landing top 100's even as much as it is landing guys no one has ever heard of before. People that don't get offered by any major schools near where they live. We have guys on the team that didn't average 10 points per game in high school. A juco guy who averaged around 3 points per game in juco and played all of 10 minutes after December this season. Around 50% of his recruits contribute basically nothing at all and this is year three, heading into year four.

[HutchwasClutch]

Stokes was a very unique case. Pearl and Tony Jones had been recruiting him for three years and his sister attended UT. He transferred high schools and wasn't eligible to play as a Senior. So he graduated early and wanted to enroll immediately and play. His other offers were Memphis and I believe Kentucky. Neither had a free scholarship available at mid-season, Tennessee did. The rest is history

His problem isn't not landing top 100's even as much as it is landing guys no one has ever heard of before. People that don't get offered by any major schools near where they live. We have guys on the team that didn't average 10 points per game in high school. A juco guy who averaged around 3 points per game in juco and played all of 10 minutes after December this season. Around 50% of his recruits contribute basically nothing at all and this is year three, heading into year four.

That's some frightening stuff- thanks for the insight.

[MUSF]

Stokes was a very unique case. Pearl and Tony Jones had been recruiting him for three years and his sister attended UT. He transferred high schools and wasn't eligible to play as a Senior. So he graduated early and wanted to enroll immediately and play. His other offers were Memphis and I believe Kentucky. Neither had a free scholarship available at mid-season, Tennessee did. The rest is history

His problem isn't not landing top 100's even as much as it is landing guys no one has ever heard of before. People that don't get offered by any major schools near where they live. We have guys on the team that didn't average 10 points per game in high school. A juco guy who averaged around 3 points per game in juco and played all of 10 minutes after December this season. Around 50% of his recruits contribute basically nothing at all and this is year three, heading into year four.

And yet, UT ends up a possession away from only their second Elite Eight. To what do you attribute the late season success?

[brandx]

A great coach will make average players good. Great players will make an average coach great.

This is my biggest fear with Cuonzo. He does not have a reputation as a recruiter. For better or worse, one thing was clearly associated with Buzz Brett Williams and Tom Crean; they were known as tireless and effective recruiters.

Can Cuonzo bring talent to Marquett? The number one quality I want in the future Marquette coach is the ability to bring talent to the school. Crean was fairly effective. Buzz Brett was very effective. We cannot afford to take a step back.

Edited to correct our former coach's name. Sorry, Brett. We'll never forget you!

So Buzz was very effective at bringing top talent to MU and "not coaching them" or "refusing to play them"? So was this "top talent" not even good enough for the NIT or did Buzz not know how to coach top talent?

[GoVols]

And yet, UT ends up a possession away from only their second Elite Eight. To what do you attribute the late season success?

Jordan McRae was a top 50/Pearl recruit, top 3 for SEC POY, 2nd in the league in scoring. Jeronne Maymon, you guys know, 4*, Wisconsin POY. Averaged 12/11 in the post season. Stokes was a top 25 player and is now a junior. Went into ultra beast mode in the tourney vs undersized Iowa/UMass/Mercer and put up 20/18 type nights. Josh Richardson, also a junior, upped his average by 10 ppg in the tournament, that offense came out of no where basically.

All in all, we started three seniors and two juniors, all of whom were pretty talented and didn't give our bench many minutes during the run. It was basically three top 50/75 level players starting, the other two were 3* top 125 types.

The baffling thing wasn't that we made the sweet 16, especially getting to play a #11, what looked to be a very overmatched #6 in UMass and a #14 in Mercer. it was that we didn't go 25-6 or so and get a top 4-5 seed.

We finished behind Georgia in the SEC this season. Florida was the class of the league and Kentucky had talent but was inconsistent and young. We had the 3rd best talent and were right with Florida experience wise, but lost to them 3 times and finished 7 games behind them in league play.

[brandx]

MU ESPN top 100 recruits during the Cuonzo ear at UT-

2014- 2
2013- 3
2012- 1

6-2 MU- tripled Cuonzo's recruiting production.

Again, I know top 100's aren't everything, but that is a weak three years at UT.

So give me your reasoning why they made the dance and why we weren't even good enough for the NIT.

[MUSF]

Jordan McRae was a top 50/Pearl recruit, top 3 for SEC POY, 2nd in the league in scoring. Jeronne Maymon, you guys know, 4*, Wisconsin POY. Averaged 12/11 in the post season. Stokes was a top 25 player and is now a junior. Went into ultra beast mode in the tourney vs undersized Iowa/UMass/Mercer and put up 20/18 type nights. Josh Richardson, also a junior, upped his average by 10 ppg in the tournament, that offense came out of no where basically.

All in all, we started three seniors and two juniors, all of whom were pretty talented and didn't give our bench many minutes during the run. It was basically three top 50/75 level players starting, the other two were 3* top 125 types.

The baffling thing wasn't that we made the sweet 16, especially getting to play a #11, what looked to be a very overmatched #6 in UMass and a #14 in Mercer. it was that we didn't go 25-6 or so and get a top 4-5 seed.

We finished behind Georgia in the SEC this season. Florida was the class of the league and Kentucky had talent but was inconsistent and young. We had the 3rd best talent and were right with Florida experience wise, but lost to them 3 times and finished 7 games behind them in league play.

Fair enough, I appreciate your assessment.

I'm just curious to see how Martin does in his next three years, whether he is at UT or MU. His teams have improved every year at both Miz St and UT. Maybe this year's team didn't live up to pre-season expectations (we know a little something about that) but they improved nonetheless.

For the record, I am not necessarily a "Cuonzo guy". I simply felt the need to defend him and the MU administration against some of the over the top attacks on this board. I trust that our administration will make a good hire and provide ample resources and support for him to succeed. Time will tell.

[GoVols]

Fair enough, I appreciate your assessment.

I'm just curious to see how Martin does in his next three years, whether he is at UT or MU. His teams have improved every year at both Miz St and UT. Maybe this year's team didn't live up to pre-season expectations (we know a little something about that) but they improved nonetheless.

For the record, I am not necessarily a "Cuonzo guy". I simply felt the need to defend him and the MU administration against some of the over the top attacks on this board. I trust that our administration will make a good hire and provide ample resources and support for him to succeed. Time will tell.

If he goes there, good luck. Hopefully he is learning. Sadly, we're neither of us good schools for on the job training type coaches. You guys have pretty much one of the top 25 programs ever. Honestly, this move sorta baffles most Vol fans.

[Pakuni]

That's some frightening stuff- thanks for the insight.

"That's some frightening stuff," said the man who mysteriously forgot about Bret Roseboro, Aaron Durley, Youssoupha Mbao and Liam McMorrow.

[ChicosBailBonds]

He also didnt have access to a private plane.

Actually, he did then when he wasn't producing the boosters denied it to him.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, your facts are screwing up Martin haters' narrative.

Not haters, Marquette educated alums asking questions.

I see he has two 5 star recruits, also seemed to have a fair share of 2 star recruits.  The latter doesn't seem to be mentioned very often here.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yet he has enough charisma to get two top 25 recruits in three years and enough coaching ability to have a top 25 offense & defense and make the sweet sixteen.

Both kids from the state of Tennessee opting to play for the big state school.  That's an important piece of information.

[Pakuni]

Not haters, Marquette educated alums asking questions.

I see he has two 5 star recruits, also seemed to have a fair share of 2 star recruits.  The latter doesn't seem to be mentioned very often here.

Define "fair share."
Per Rivals, Martin has signed all of one 2-star players, and that was a JUCO big man project who also was being recruited by Auburn, LSU and Mississippi State.

[keefe]

Edited to correct our former coach's name. Sorry, Brett. We'll never forget you!

Brett? I thought it was Brutus

[HutchwasClutch]

So give me your reasoning why they made the dance and why we weren't even good enough for the NIT.

A one year blip.  The committee thought so highly of UT they were sent to Dayton.   Are you honestly trying to make an argument that strong or weak recruiting is irrelevant?

[brandx]

Not haters, Marquette educated alums asking questions.

I see he has two 5 star recruits, also seemed to have a fair share of 2 star recruits.  The latter doesn't seem to be mentioned very often here.

I would think you have more access to numbers than I - but wonder if you would/could compare recruiting budgets. It might impact recruiting more than just a little.

Numbers I have found were approx. $900,000 for MU and $125,000 for UT. I would guess the UT number is pretty accurate since their recruiting budget was about $1.7 mil for all men's sports with over $1.1 mil going to football. And MU is #3 in the country with BB recruiting spending.

[HutchwasClutch]

"That's some frightening stuff," said the man who mysteriously forgot about Bret Roseboro, Aaron Durley, Youssoupha Mbao and Liam McMorrow.

Says the man who seems to forget that Mcmorrow, Roseboro, and Durley never played a minute at MU, and Mbao barely more than that.  GoVols was talking about guys on their roster multiple seasons.  Buzz replaced all those stiffs.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Define "fair share."
Per Rivals, Martin has signed all of one 2-star players, and that was a JUCO big man project who also was being recruited by Auburn, LSU and Mississippi State.

Since this thread was about ESPN top 100, that's the recruiting service I used.

Wesley Waspun 2 stars    http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/126851/wesley-washpun
Quinton Chievous 2 stars   http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/123944/quinton-chievous
Yemi Makanjuola 2 stars  http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/138847/yemi-makanjuola
Armani Moore 2 stars  http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/evaluation/_/id/156215/armani-moore
Derek Reese 2 stars  http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/evaluation/_/id/143529/derek-reese

Five in the last three years, that seems like more than one's fair share for a high major program. 

[brandx]

A one year blip.  The committee thought so highly of UT they were sent to Dayton.   Are you honestly trying to make an argument that strong or weak recruiting is irrelevant?

Not at all. But 4 & 5 star recruiting is overrated (Hate to agree with Chicos here). A good coach recruits to his system.

In UW's 8-man rotation, there is 1 5-star (Dekker), and one 4-star who doesn't get many minutes (Koenig). That's it. Yet they were better at all 5 positions on the floor. Not one MU guy who would have been better on that team than any starter they had. Not to mention Buzz would have killed to be able to put someone like Hayes in games (defense, rebounding + he can shoot).

[ChicosBailBonds]

I would think you have more access to numbers than I - but wonder if you would/could compare recruiting budgets. It might impact recruiting more than just a little.

Numbers I have found were approx. $900,000 for MU and $125,000 for UT. I would guess the UT number is pretty accurate since their recruiting budget was about $1.7 mil for all men's sports with over $1.1 mil going to football. And MU is #3 in the country with BB recruiting spending.

The numbers are all over the board and tough to pin down because each school allocates dollars differently.  One school may put something in a recruiting budget that another school does not, despite it being essentially the same type of expense.

I have no doubt MU has a higher recruiting budget and access to some great assets.  On the other hand, Wisconsin has a very low recruiting budget because they can get kids that want to play for state U to come to Madison.  UW spent $57K on recruiting a few years ago.  Tennessee has that advantage as the big state school as well....notice the two top 25 recruits both hail from the state of Tennessee. If you look at the entire Big Ten, for example...IU's recruiting budget is 10th, Wisconsin 11th in the Big Ten...near the bottom.  Michigan State is 8th in the Big Ten.  My point being that big state schools have a huge advantage with the name on their chest.

Some in the industry will also argue that having football is a great recruiting tool.  Often basketball players come in to see campus when the football team is playing a big game, as an example.  Others will argue that a basketball only school can appeal more to a basketball player because it shows they are king of the hill at that school.  Different strokes for different folks.

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

Since this thread was about ESPN top 100, that's the recruiting service I used.

Wesley Waspun 2 stars    http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/126851/wesley-washpun
Quinton Chievous 2 stars   http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/123944/quinton-chievous
Yemi Makanjuola 2 stars  http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/138847/yemi-makanjuola
Armani Moore 2 stars  http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/evaluation/_/id/156215/armani-moore
Derek Reese 2 stars  http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/evaluation/_/id/143529/derek-reese

Five in the last three years, that seems like more than one's fair share for a high major program. 

It's very alarming.  MU cannot have this type of recruiting, or we'll be back in the Deane years Chico.  There are just too many alarms going off with Martin.  

[brandx]

The numbers are all over the board and tough to pin down because each school allocates dollars differently.  One school may put something in a recruiting budget that another school does not, despite it being essentially the same type of expense.

I have no doubt MU has a higher recruiting budget and access to some great assets.  On the other hand, Wisconsin has a very low recruiting budget because they can get kids that want to play for state U to come to Madison.  UW spent $57K on recruiting a few years ago.  Tennessee has that advantage as the big state school as well....notice the two top 25 recruits both hail from the state of Tennessee. If you look at the entire Big Ten, for example...IU's recruiting budget is 10th, Wisconsin 11th in the Big Ten...near the bottom.  Michigan State is 8th in the Big Ten.  My point being that big state schools have a huge advantage with the name on their chest.

Some in the industry will also argue that having football is a great recruiting tool.  Often basketball players come in to see campus when the football team is playing a big game, as an example.  Others will argue that a basketball only school can appeal more to a basketball player because it shows they are king of the hill at that school.  Different strokes for different folks.

Thanks for the reply. I think since football is the driving factor ($$$$), state schools will tend to spend less on BB recruiting. Where do UW's recruit come from? Wisconsin and bordering states + Ohio. That's it. Bo doesn't recruit nationally. Same with Izzo. And that probably goes back to your point about state schools.

In the South, though, I think it works against them. I vacation near Knoxville a couple times a year and football mania at Tennessee and the SEC is light years ahead of Wisconsin. Basketball is just something to root for between Football season and spring practice. That is why, other than UF and UK, top recruits aren't really available.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It's very alarming.  MU cannot have this type of recruiting, or we'll be back in the Deane years Chico.  There are just too many alarms going off with Martin.  

Alarms...maybe.  I hope he turns out well, but certainly important unanswered questions that are out there, but the ranks are already closing and you can already see some MU fans that don't want to ask these questions and are ready to call those that do not fans, or haters or whatever.  It's like clockwork.  Sadly.

I'll give MU credit for at least hiring someone away from a power conference, something we haven't done maybe ever.  As to aiming high and all that stuff...well I guess we find out in 5 years.  Not overly excited, but he'll have my support unless he cheats or does something stupid like the Buzzard did with some of this actions...the squirmy ones.