For the Martin backers, if UT doesn't make the play-in game.....

[Litehouse]

I didn't realize that was a prereq to have an opinion on the matter

Not a pre-requisite, but come on... this guy shows up 5 days ago and has been averaging over 60 posts/day pushing Martin.  Something is fishy.

[CAGASS24]

MARTIN PROS:

Professional playing experience  (NBA and overseas - to include the BUCKS)
Successful college basketball experience (back to back Big Ten titles and an elite 8)
Successful assistant coaching resume (at Purdue and Hall of famer Gene Keady - one elite 8 and a few second round appearances)
Took Missouri State from a dump to winning the MVC regular season in just three seasons.
Took over for Tennessee amidst serious turmoil and improved record over 3 years
Solid recruiting efforts at Tennesee;
Solid tourney success final year
Head coaching experience at BCS level school.


SOMEONE HELP WITH THE CONS   

[GooooMarquette]

Not a pre-requisite, but come on... this guy shows up 5 days ago and has been averaging over 60 posts/day pushing Martin.  Something is fishy.

Yup.

[Pakuni]

Shaka's team wasn't a play-in this year and has put 3 teams in since that one year.

Nobody would consider him the top young coaching prospect in the country if not for that Final Four run. He'd just be a good young coach who took over a solid program built by Jeff Capel and Anthony Grant, and kept it a solid program. He'd be a guy with a 2-3 tournament record.
He'd be Ben Jacobson, and not a serious candidate for jobs like UCLA.

On Hubbs and Stokes, is it fair to ask why a team with two 5 star players had to get in to the NCAA tournament as a play-in?  

Sure, it's fair to ask anything you want.
Not every five-star recruit becomes a star, much less an instant star.
Kentucky had several 5-star recruits last year .... and didn't make the tournament.
The 2010 UNC team featuring 5-star guys like John Henson, Tyler Zeller, Larry Drew and Ed Davis played in the NIT.
NC State also appeared in a play-in game this year .... with two five-star recruits.

Honestly, the 5 star recruits I'm not super wild about.  Too many of them leaving early, prima donnas, etc. 

So, you're not super wild about them in this post, but in a previous post you call out Martin for not landing "a bevy" of them.
Got it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

He has improved every single year at both schools. Missouri stayed was a mess when he took over. They ended as a top 25 RPI team.

At Tennessee 7 of the 10 returning players left when he was hired. He improved every year. Upward Trajectory everywhere he has been.

Not to pick too many nits, but when he left Missouri State, they were 39th in RPI.  The year prior, they were 74th.  I realize WikiPedia says they were 25th, but they weren't

http://web1.ncaa.org/weeklyrpi/templateMBB.jsp?s=1&y=2010

http://www.warrennolan.com/basketball/2011/rpi

[Big Papi]

He has improved every single year at both schools. Missouri stayed was a mess when he took over. They ended as a top 25 RPI team.

At Tennessee 7 of the 10 returning players left when he was hired. He improved every year. Upward Trajectory everywhere he has been.

I don't know if I think he is the best option but I realize that other than Shaka, I have lots of question marks with all the remaining viable candidates.

What I like about Martin is that his teams have improved year over year and from beginning of the year to the end of the year.  He took one crappy team and made them good and took one that was in disarray and got them into the tournament.  Not an impact hire but I can't say with certainty that Howland or anyone else is either.

Howland was fired from his last gig and his trend was definitely downhill unlike Martins.  My other concerns with Howland is it sounds like he is a pain to work for and not a players coach.  I think we have a greater chance to keep our nucleus of players with Martin over Howland and I dont want to see a rebuilding project.  So, in other words, it is not a slam dunk one way or another no matter who we hire.

To ask Chicos, what was Danny Manning before this year and his name is mentioned on these boards?  What was Archie Miller before barely making the tourny and getting to the Elite 8 this year?  What has Wojo ever done as a coach?  What was Crean before we hired him?  What was Buzz before we hired him?  

That being said, there are countless examples of coaches who didn't have GREAT success at their original head coaching gigs that ended up being damn good coaches and Martin has been successful so that is a plus.  

I trust in Cords to make the best coaching selection for MU.  It might or might not work out, but if Martin is hired, I am all aboard the Martin bandwagon until he loses our first recruit and then that first game..........just kidding but I know many on these boards will rip his head off when it happens.

[WadeATKBurton]

I didn't realize that was a prereq to have an opinion on the matter

RIGHT

[Texas Western]

Martin would be an excellence choice. I hope we can sign him up soon.

[Sharpie]

As I sit here right now, I am not a "Martin backer." Nor am I a Martin critic. I am a Marquette backer and will support the team regardless.

I can look at every single candidate -- including Shaka, whose NCAA tourney record has declined fairly significantly each year since VCU's FF run -- and pick some scabs if I want to.

I am choosing not to prejudge any of these guys. Each has strengths and weaknesses, merits and question marks.

What any of us thinks doesn't matter one I iota, so why get all worked up about it? None of us knows more about each candidate and about the entire process than the decision-makers, anyway. Of course we have opinions and it's fun to express them. But saying stuff like, "If you think Martin will be a good coach you are an idiot" is dopey, ill-informed drivel. It adds nothing to the conversation.

No matter whom we select, I will support him and our basketball program. That doesn't mean I won't have opinions about recruiting, strategy, etc., as situations present themselves down the line. It just means I have learned not to stress out about things I can't control and also have learned to try not to make judgments out of ignorance.

Go Marquette!

One of the only logical posts I have seen in days. I agree.

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

Shaka's team wasn't a play-in this year and has put 3 teams in since that one year.


On Hubbs and Stokes, is it fair to ask why a team with two 5 star players had to get in to the NCAA tournament as a play-in?  Can you imagine a 5 star recruit at MU that scored 5 points per game like Hubbs did?  I can imagine the questioning....plus only played 18 minutes a game.....sound familiar?


Honestly, the 5 star recruits I'm not super wild about.  Too many of them leaving early, prima donnas, etc. 

Let's not forget the fact that Stokes blew the game against Michigan, by being called for an offensive foul with 8 seconds left.  The guy was double covered and still didn't try to pass the ball.  I've been reading that NBA scouts are scared of his decision making and not being polished enough offensively.   Hubbs and Stokes being 5 stars and not developing is a knock against Martin's player development.

Other than that, the seniors on the team were Bruce Pearl's guys and not Martin's.  Remember, Bruce Weber took Illinois to the championship game with Bill Self's players.  After that, Weber could fill the shelf with decent players and was fired.  I'm afraid that same scenario will happen with Martin.  He's riding the coattails of Bruce Pearl's recruiting efforts.

[WadeATKBurton]

I don't have that opinion at all.  You're awfully sensitive.  I'm asking you to convince me.  Look, I think point guard is the most important position in college basketball and for the life of me I don't know why Buzz went down that path. 

I look at Martin's record and he seems qualified, seems competent, but so do many others.  I'm just curious why so many back him as hard as they do and if they didn't make the play-in game this year, would this discussion be going on at all?

Tennessee fans aren't dumb, they've had some good college basketball teams there off and on over the years.  I was surprised how many of them wanted him out.  The Bruce Pearl thing is understood, but as much as people here were not thrilled with Buzz this year, less than 5% wanted him gone.  That percentage seemed to be a lot higher with CM last year and this year until the end.  Why?  Is it simply because he wasn't Pearl?  Or something else?

Are these not fair questions to ask?

I got u. You seem pretty fair, unlike MOST of the other posters. Respect

[WadeATKBurton]

MARTIN PROS:

Professional playing experience  (NBA and overseas - to include the BUCKS)
Successful college basketball experience (back to back Big Ten titles and an elite 8)
Successful assistant coaching resume (at Purdue and Hall of famer Gene Keady - one elite 8 and a few second round appearances)
Took Missouri State from a dump to winning the MVC regular season in just three seasons.
Took over for Tennessee amidst serious turmoil and improved record over 3 years
Solid recruiting efforts at Tennesee;
Solid tourney success final year
Head coaching experience at BCS level school.


SOMEONE HELP WITH THE CONS   

The PROS would outweigh the CONS by a lot!

[ChicosBailBonds]

So, you're not super wild about them in this post, but in a previous post you call out Martin for not landing "a bevy" of them.
Got it.

I called out Martin for not landing a bevy of 5 star recruits?  Hmm...no I didn't.  Please re-read what I said, it was in response to that poster who said he lands a bunch of 5 star players.  I didn't call him out at all, I asked (form of a question) if he had a bevy of 5 star recruits he had landed.  Seems you didn't get it.   

Nobody would consider him the top young coaching prospect in the country if not for that Final Four run. He'd just be a good young coach who took over a solid program built by Jeff Capel and Anthony Grant, and kept it a solid program. He'd be a guy with a 2-3 tournament record.
He'd be Ben Jacobson, and not a serious candidate for jobs like UCLA.

No question the Final Four run bought him credibility. 

Sure, it's fair to ask anything you want.
Not every five-star recruit becomes a star, much less an instant star.
Kentucky had several 5-star recruits last year .... and didn't make the tournament.
The 2010 UNC team featuring 5-star guys like John Henson, Tyler Zeller, Larry Drew and Ed Davis played in the NIT.
NC State also appeared in a play-in game this year .... with two five-star recruits.

Agreed

[tower912]

There is no perfect choice at this point.  Heck, a case can be made that Shaka isn't all that.   It is clear that whomever MU is able to land will be a disappointment to many.    Coach Martin is probably not my first choice.   Depending on the assistant and the program, I am comfortable with an assistant.   

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

There is no perfect choice at this point.  Heck, a case can be made that Shaka isn't all that.   It is clear that whomever MU is able to land will be a disappointment to many.    Coach Martin is probably not my first choice.   Depending on the assistant and the program, I am comfortable with an assistant.   

Go the assistant route.  Martin has established that he's flawed. 

[Silkk the Shaka]

Well crap, having Martin's team lose to them twice with two 5 star recruits is a little concerning. 

Again, one of them (Hubbs) had season-ending surgery after 12 games.

[Windyplayer]

Go the assistant route.  Martin has established that he's flawed. 

So, your criteria or sorry, criterion, is Jesus?

[UticaBusBarn]

For the Martin backers, if UT doesn't make the play-in game.....you still supporting him for the coach?


How much of your support is based on the three games won in the NCAA tournament?

Curious more than anything

Yes. I am not a backer, but he has a good body of work. In addition, Marquette is past the point of hiring an assistant coach. It is time to play with the big folks.

As a footnote, if you ever saw how hard Martin played, coupled with his over-coming serious health problems, one can only conclude that he a "tuff muther."

[ChicosBailBonds]

MARTIN PROS:

Professional playing experience  (NBA and overseas - to include the BUCKS)
Successful college basketball experience (back to back Big Ten titles and an elite 8)
Successful assistant coaching resume (at Purdue and Hall of famer Gene Keady - one elite 8 and a few second round appearances)
Took Missouri State from a dump to winning the MVC regular season in just three seasons.
Took over for Tennessee amidst serious turmoil and improved record over 3 years
Solid recruiting efforts at Tennesee;
Solid tourney success final year
Head coaching experience at BCS level school.


SOMEONE HELP WITH THE CONS  

Those are fair PROs.  I'll take a crack at the CONS, but that's not because I don't think he is a viable candidate, I'm merely trying to be objective.  I struggle when someone thinks a candidate only has pros...no one has only pros.

So here goes

CONS
One NCAA appearance in 6 years of coaching.  
Some want to argue his teams have gotten better each year, is this based on record?  That's a bit misleading as schedule matters.  In RPI terms, not always the case.  Same for Sagarin, etc.
Missouri State was not a dump program.  In fact, when he took over they had 7 straight winning seasons.  Martin's first season there they went 11-20.  Now, could be lots of reasons for that.
Went to Purdue...Purdue's head coach on thin ice, Martin may not be here long if he is as good as people are suggesting
An existing fan base at his current school that have wanted him out for 2 years...why?

[LAZER]

Go the assistant route.  Martin has established that he's flawed. 

Which assistant?

[Silkk the Shaka]

Yes. I am not a backer, but he has a good body of work. In addition, Marquette is past the point of hiring an assistant coach. It is time to play with the big folks.

As a footnote, if you ever saw how hard Martin played, coupled with his over-coming serious health problems, one can only conclude that he a "tuff muther."

Interesting - never heard of the overcoming serious health issues. Can you elaborate?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Appreciate the feeback....hitting the slopes.  Hope we have a hire everyone can get behind and be excited about.  My sense is we won't, but ultimately it will take years to know.

[BM1090]

Not to pick too many nits, but when he left Missouri State, they were 39th in RPI.  The year prior, they were 74th.  I realize WikiPedia says they were 25th, but they weren't

http://web1.ncaa.org/weeklyrpi/templateMBB.jsp?s=1&y=2010

http://www.warrennolan.com/basketball/2011/rpi

Interesting. Maybe they were 25 at the time of the selection show? Guess Wikipedia isn't reliable after all

[ChicosBailBonds]

Interesting. Maybe they were 25 at the time of the selection show? Guess Wikipedia isn't reliable after all

No, you wouldn't be able to drop that much that quickly.  I think they just screwed up. 

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

So, your criteria or sorry, criterion, is Jesus?

No, I just see too many CRITICAL flaws with Martin.  

I would have liked to see the following:

Closer games/more effort against Florida and Kentucky.
More consistent recruiting - He's all over the map, with the majority of recruits being 2-3 stars.  He's landed 2 -4/5 stars, but has achieved most success with Bruce Pearl's recruits- his haven't had a significant impact. 

My huge concern is that, next year, the Tennessee boards are saying that the team will not be anywhere near 20 wins with the current talent on the roster.  People keep saying..... he's upward trending, but next year, that isn't the case.  

Let's not forget that the 5 stars were instate recruits either......  He doesn't have a great recruiting pipeline across the country which is critical to being a consistent sweet 16 team.