2014-15 NFC North/NFL Thread

[reinko]

Simmons called Goodell a liar, because he said he didn't what was on the tape.  If Goodell had read this, than it strikes me he had a pretty good idea of what happened on the tape.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Little hard to figure out exactly what's going on here since you only published one side of the conversation.

It was a one way twitter rant by Rivers toward an article that Simmons posts.  No responses from Simmons that I'm aware of.

Here's the entire article

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/doc-rivers-son-jeremiah-sounds-off-espn-bill-150333520.html

[mu03eng]

It was a one way twitter rant by Rivers toward an article that Simmons posts.  No responses from Simmons that I'm aware of.

Here's the entire article

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/doc-rivers-son-jeremiah-sounds-off-espn-bill-150333520.html

Ah ha, so as evidence that Bill Simmons says untrue and unverified things, you publish twitter postings of a private citizen with an observable bias in which that person claims that Bill Simmons is wrong.....without proof that he is wrong

OK so if someone doesn't have proof but what they say agrees with my point it is invariably fact, good to know

[ChicosBailBonds]

Reinko

He has no proof that Goodell knew what was on the tape in terms of the veracity of the incident.  We all know James Foley was beheaded, and we can imagine in our minds how terrible it would be.  That's quite a bit different than actually seeing it.  The video makes all the difference in the world.   If read a story about a kid walking across the street and is killed being hit by a car.  I'm jarred by reading it, but if there is video of it and I SEE the video, it takes it to a different level...it might even change my view (I might see the kid was in the wrong, I might see the car targeted the kid, I might see that the driver was slumped over the wheel).  The video, actually seeing it, MATTERS.

Did Goodell know that Rice punched his fiance?  Yes.  Goodell has not denied this.  But there is a material difference in hearing about something and seeing it.  That's where Simmons is wrong.   It would be interesting to see Goodell call out Simmons claim that he would fail a lie detector test....it won't happen, but interesting nonetheless.

If you're going to call someone a liar, you better have proof to back it up.  If Simmons is so insulted, quit his job because he works for a network that apparently has no scruples, go independent and gather his own audience on his own....and let any libel suits or any other negative impact come to him, not his employer.

[mu03eng]

Here is what Simmons said

"I just think not enough is being made out of the fact that they knew about the tape and they knew what was on it.  Goodell, if he didn't know what was on that tape, he's a liar. I'm just saying it. He is lying. I think that dude is lying. If you put him up on a lie detector test that guy would fail. For all these people to pretend they didn't know is such f------- bulls---. It really is. It's such f------- bulls---. And for him to go in that press conference and pretend otherwise, I was so insulted. I really was."

Seems to express it as an opinion.  Also he never said Goodell saw the tape, just that he knew what was on it.  I agree that Simmons was inarticulate and aggressive in his statements, but suspension for 3 weeks?  Really?  Especially compared with the fact that we are talking about someone who knocked a woman out cold??

[ChicosBailBonds]

It strikes me as funny the linguistic gymnastics that have to be done to show Simmons was wrong and yet he is suspended 3 weeks.  Essentially, ESPN has determined that an opinion maker calling someone a liar(not provable but "likely" by even your quoted writer) and challenging the companies authority merits a longer suspension than a man you punched his wife unconscious in an elevator as well as fellow opinion maker who on-air intimated that women can provoke their own beatings.  We have no issue with that?

Additionally, the very commissioner who we are bristling at being called a liar, suspended a coach for a year with no proof because "ignorance is not a defense".....is using the ignorance defense as to why he didn't do more in the Ray Rice scenario.

I won't argue the ignorance is not a defense portion, that's a slippery slope whenever it is used.  No doubt.

You can't call someone a liar, multiple times, without proof.  It's simple as that.  Not in the context he did it in.  As far as the suspension length, you're mixing two different organizations.  What the NFL does in their suspensions has no bearing on what ESPN does with theirs, or what the DOJ or Microsoft or Pam's bakery does with theirs.  Totally independent.  But if you truly want to go down that path, I believe the NFL after actually seeing the video, suspended Rice indefinitely.

[reinko]

Reinko

He has no proof that Goodell knew what was on the tape in terms of the veracity of the incident.  We all know James Foley was beheaded, and we can imagine in our minds how terrible it would be.  That's quite a bit different than actually seeing it.  The video makes all the difference in the world.   If read a story about a kid walking across the street and is killed being hit by a car.  I'm jarred by reading it, but if there is video of it and I SEE the video, it takes it to a different level...it might even change my view (I might see the kid was in the wrong, I might see the car targeted the kid, I might see that the driver was slumped over the wheel).  The video, actually seeing it, MATTERS.

Did Goodell know that Rice punched his fiance?  Yes.  Goodell has not denied this.  But there is a material difference in hearing about something and seeing it.  That's where Simmons is wrong.   It would be interesting to see Goodell call out Simmons claim that he would fail a lie detector test....it won't happen, but interesting nonetheless.

If you're going to call someone a liar, you better have proof to back it up.  If Simmons is so insulted, quit his job because he works for a network that apparently has no scruples, go independent and gather his own audience on his own....and let any libel suits or any other negative impact come to him, not his employer.

Goodell in press conference said he didn't know what was on the tape. Fact.  You claim he knew what was on the tape in the bolded above.  Simmons called him a liar, and now you are calling Goodell liar too?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ah ha, so as evidence that Bill Simmons says untrue and unverified things, you publish twitter postings of a private citizen with an observable bias in which that person claims that Bill Simmons is wrong.....without proof that he is wrong

OK so if someone doesn't have proof but what they say agrees with my point it is invariably fact, good to know

And like I said, if Bill Simmons wants to publish his claims about Goodell being a liar independently as a private citizen, knock your socks off.  Just as Jermiah Rivers had.  That's not what Bill Simmons did, he is an employee of ESPN and a public personality representing ESPN.   

You're smart enough to know the difference.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Here is what Simmons said

"I just think not enough is being made out of the fact that they knew about the tape and they knew what was on it.  Goodell, if he didn't know what was on that tape, he's a liar. I'm just saying it. He is lying. I think that dude is lying. If you put him up on a lie detector test that guy would fail. For all these people to pretend they didn't know is such f------- bulls---. It really is. It's such f------- bulls---. And for him to go in that press conference and pretend otherwise, I was so insulted. I really was."

Seems to express it as an opinion.  Also he never said Goodell saw the tape, just that he knew what was on it.  I agree that Simmons was inarticulate and aggressive in his statements, but suspension for 3 weeks?  Really?  Especially compared with the fact that we are talking about someone who knocked a woman out cold??

HE IS LYING.   (that's a statement, he doesn't know that)
If YOU PUT HIM UP ON A LIE DETECTOR TEST THAT GUY WOULD FAIL.  (that's a statement, he doesn't know that)



He may be right, but today he doesn't know.  He has no proof, let it play out.  Just last week it was reported the Ravens had the video on cellphone, then that was retracted....but that was bought as gospel by many people.  This week, the text messages implying Ravens owner was buying off Rice....oops, now those are retracted.   Let it play out.  Simmons doesn't know who knew what, least of all Goodell, but he is making claims of fact that he is lying, that he would fail a lie detector test, etc.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Goodell in press conference said he didn't know what was on the tape. Fact.  You claim he knew what was on the tape in the bolded above.  Simmons called him a liar, and now you are calling Goodell liar too?

Try again.  He said he hadn't seen the tape, thus not knowing what it showed in video context, which is at issue here.  That is different than knowing what was alledged or reported to have happened.

He read the report, interviewed the parties involved, got their side of the story, etc....he knew what went on in the elevator based on those inputs.  That's far different than knowing what is on the tape.  If you haven't seen the tape, you don't even know what the tape captures.  I said that Goodell knew Rice punched his fiance...that is fact.  He has not denied this.  You're trying to jump to the conclusion that this means he saw the tape or knew exactly what is on the tape, it does not.  Until one sees the tape, one doesn't know what is on the tape, etc.  What is a "punch" as stated by the fiance and Rice, vs what you "see" on the tape.  Could be materially different, and I suspect was based on what they told him. Try again.

[reinko]

Try again.  He said he hadn't seen the tape, thus not knowing what it showed in video context, which is at issue here.  That is different than knowing what was alledged or reported to have happened.

He read the report, interviewed the parties involved, got their side of the story, etc....he knew what went on in the elevator based on those inputs.  That's far different than knowing what is on the tape.  If you haven't seen the tape, you don't even know what the tape captures.  I said that Goodell knew Rice punched his fiance...that is fact.  He has not denied this.  You're trying to jump to the conclusion that this means he saw the tape, it does not.  Try again.

I'm jumping conclusions,  Goodell in press conference said he didn't know what was the tape.   Simmons called him a liar for that.   Those are just facts.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Incidentally, you left out the rest of what he said

"I really hope somebody calls me or emails me and says I'm in trouble for anything I say about Roger Goodell, because if one person says that to me, I'm going public," Simmons said. "You leave me alone. The commissioner's a liar and I get to talk about that on my podcast ... Please. Call me and say I'm in trouble. I dare you."

Sorry, but when someone is paying your salary, you don't get to say that.  People can whine all they want about it, but don't attack your employer and dare them to do something and don't call someone a liar for the 4th time as a point of fact, not unless you have the goods to back it up.  For the record, if Goodell is lying, he will get canned as he should.  None of us know if he is or not, and that's the point.   Simmons could have done this very easily, but his little ego got in the way.

His contract is up in 9 months.....

[mu03eng]

Incidentally, you left out the rest of what he said

"I really hope somebody calls me or emails me and says I'm in trouble for anything I say about Roger Goodell, because if one person says that to me, I'm going public," Simmons said. "You leave me alone. The commissioner's a liar and I get to talk about that on my podcast ... Please. Call me and say I'm in trouble. I dare you."

Sorry, but when someone is paying your salary, you don't get to say that.  People can whine all they want about it, but don't attack your employer and dare them to do something and don't call someone a liar for the 4th time as a point of fact, not unless you have the goods to back it up.  For the record, if Goodell is lying, he will get canned as he should.  None of us know if he is or not, and that's the point.   Simmons could have done this very easily, but his little ego got in the way.

His contract is up in 9 months.....

He is not being suspended by ESPN for challenging them according to their own statement, so that is immaterial to the conversation.

[GGGG]

I think this is a pretty good summary on why Simmons should have been suspended.  (And I think he should have...but three weeks is a bit excessive.)

http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/everyday-ethics/271451/bill-simmons-espn-suspension-and-the-challenges-of-editing-star-talent/?utm_content=bufferdd2bc&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer#.VCQ46QnVsDQ.twitter

[ChicosBailBonds]

He is not being suspended by ESPN for challenging them according to their own statement, so that is immaterial to the conversation.

That's what they are saying publicly....in my opinion.      In my opinion, in talking to Disney \ ESPN folks practically daily, I believe that is part of the suspension.  In my opinion.

[ChicosBailBonds]

My argument is all about the context of it. Ray Rice got suspended for the equivalent of two weeks. Stephan A. got suspended for 1 week. Simmons called out Goodell, not even his own boss and got suspended for as much as Stephan A. and Ray Rice combined. It doesnt make sense. ESPN is too worried about saving their own ass when it comes to publicity and protecting the NFL and Goodells ass they are almost no better than he is. Thats whats frustrating. I will be welcoming Simmons with open arms if and when he decides to join Fox Sports 1.

Chitown, I truly am interested in understanding how you square that ESPN is trying to protect the NFL and their butts, but allow OTL to go off on the NFL.  Or allow Simmons (it's not like he hasn't gone off on Goodell the last two weeks) or any of a number of other reporters.  Are you just ignoring that part and only locking in on the suspension?

[reinko]

That's what they are saying publicly....in my opinion.      In my opinion, in talking to Disney \ ESPN folks practically daily, I believe that is part of the suspension.  In my opinion.

Of course it is,  but big bad ABC is too chickencrap to say it.

And for the record,  if they come out and say he sis suspended  for insubordination,  people including myself would agree with that choice.

[mu03eng]

Of course it is,  but big bad ABC is too chickencrap to say it.

And for the record,  if they come out and say he sis suspended  for insubordination,  people including myself would agree with that choice.

This is my point entirely.....it is insubordination, call it that and we'll all move on.  If it's because he called Goodell a liar, OK I get it, but 3 weeks????  If it is the two in combination, call it that.  They are horrible at optics especially around these types of issues.

What also doesn't help is when ESPN "pulled down" the ombudsman article praising Simmons.  They are now claiming it was a technical issue..riiiiggghhhttt.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Has Olbermann, Whitlock, Simmons last week been suspended for attacking the NFL, Goodell, etc?  Nope.  It's all about what you say and how you say it.  He crossed the line.  Not sure why this is so foreign to many of you, but I guess if you have grown up on deadspin and tmz where fast and loose is cool.

But hell, even the beloved Deadspin and TMZ (snicker snicker) had a story on it...even they sort of get it.   "And get this ... our ESPN sources tell us there are multiple on-air people who STAND-BY the punishment ... with one on-air person telling us, "Bill went too far. Remember, Disney runs this thing." 

The source adds, "You have got to know where you work at. It's not all about you.



#prayforsimmons

#justice4simmons

[ChicosBailBonds]

Dan Lebatard, an ESPN employee who was suspended only a few weeks ago and a good friend of Bill Simmons.  Addresses the realities of it in HIS OPINION.  He challenged his employers and he went over the line.

He takes fans to task for saying that ESPN is protecting the NFL.  "I have been stunned at ESPN's coverage of this....ESPN has POUNDED the commissioner...", pounded the NFL....people that say this stuff haven't been paying attention.  You can't dare your employer to do this (which is exactly what my ESPN guys told me today....people can choose to pretend that isn't part of the reason.)  "Everyone's arguing ESPN is wrong because they crushed the little guy....because it's easy"  (my interpretation....it's lazy).

Starts around 14:10...goes for a few minutes

http://podbay.fm/show/301023639/e/1411684863?autostart=1

[NavinRJohnson]

Tedious...and I take yet another step away from professional sports (college basketball included).

[jesmu84]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11589797/official-says-ray-rice-video-was-sent-nfl-security-chief-jeffrey-miller

ruh roh

Also, how has this voicemail from the NFL offices confirming receipt of the video along with the comment of it being terrible not been addressed more? This indeed confirms that someone at the NFL offices did see it. If the video did get sent to the NFL, was received by the NFL, and was viewed by whoever is the female voicemail, then it appears Goodell did lie. Lots of "ifs" to get past though.

[GGGG]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11589797/official-says-ray-rice-video-was-sent-nfl-security-chief-jeffrey-miller

ruh roh

Also, how has this voicemail from the NFL offices confirming receipt of the video along with the comment of it being terrible not been addressed more? This indeed confirms that someone at the NFL offices did see it. If the video did get sent to the NFL, was received by the NFL, and was viewed by whoever is the female voicemail, then it appears Goodell did lie. Lots of "ifs" to get past though.

It's too bad whomever the source is didn't send it via registered mail.  (Or maybe that's the next shoe to drop.)

[reinko]

It's too bad whomever the source is didn't send it via registered mail.  (Or maybe that's the next shoe to drop.)

Or maybe, they can blame his secretary.  Curious how many packages the chief of NFL security gets a week.

[Sir Lawrence]

Bears are 1.5 point dogs?  That isn't right.