Buzz needs to sit Derrick Wilson

[madtownwarrior]

Wow, great that we had De Wilson guard the ASU guard or he might have scored 59 rather than 29....

Off the top of my head, 3rd best defensive point guard in 33 years (behind Dominique James and maybe Tony Miller).

[tower912]

Anybody who watched last night's game and still thinks Dawson is a better option AT THIS TIME needs to turn in their basketball fan card. 

[GGGG]

Announcers said during the game tonight that he "didn't look anywhere near 100%" My guess is Buzz is still weighing his options with the medical redshirt

Actually it would just be a regular redshirt for Duane at this point.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Wow, great that we had De Wilson guard the ASU guard or he might have scored 59 rather than 29....

Jahii Carson only scored 23 points, which was 1 point below his season average at that time.

What I assume you meant was the SDSU guard Xavier Thames might have scored 59. Derick wasn't the only one guarding him and the kid went 5/6 from 3 and 10/11 from the stripe. He just couldn't be stopped that night. Derrick did hold him to 2/10 on 2P FG

[NersEllenson]

Ball State defended Derrick Wilson like he was a regular PG tonight, guarding him closely all aorund the floor, and he was able to use that to penetrate.  Let's hope more defenses play him like that.

I saw that too, and was shocked - and it definitely helped Derrick be more effective.  Although Ball State did give him that wide open 3 - and I'm glad he took it - you HAVE to take that shot if teams are going to dare you to shoot, leave you that wide open.  To be a PG that is a total non-threat from the perimeter kills an offense.

Derrick played a very nice game last night - and loved his usage of 23 minutes.  Let's hope his production can continue against the higher level opponents, as Ball State was a sub 200 RPI team with a 5'7" PG.

[GGGG]

Posted on another board:

So far this year, Derrick has 37 assists in 271 minutes. That's one every 7.32 minutes. Last year Junior had 133 assists in 982 minutes. One every 7.38 minutes. All with having a A/TO ratio of 2.8...Junior's was 1.5.

Derrick's OR right now is 98.7. Junior's was 96.2. This despite the fact that Junior was a better shooter and scored more points. And of course Derrick is a much better defender than Junior was.

Now of course Derrick's numbers may fade as we get into BE play, but he has been much better than he has been given credit for.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Posted on another board:

So far this year, Derrick has 37 assists in 271 minutes. That's one every 7.32 minutes. Last year Junior had 133 assists in 982 minutes. One every 7.38 minutes. All with having a A/TO ratio of 2.8...Junior's was 1.5.

Derrick's OR right now is 98.7. Junior's was 96.2. This despite the fact that Junior was a better shooter and scored more points. And of course Derrick is a much better defender than Junior was.

Now of course Derrick's numbers may fade as we get into BE play, but he has been much better than he has been given credit for.

But the offense flows better with (insert player).

[GGGG]

Now to be fair, Junior had many more steals than Derrick has, and that coupled with Vander leaving is why we haven't had the fast break points that we did last year.  But that's because Derrick is a better positional defender.  He doesn't take those risks.

A good example of this is that dumbass Fox analyst last night, who said that Deonte is a good defender because he has 14 steals or something like that.  While that's nice and all, anybody can watch just a few minutes of any game to see that Deonte is a below average defender at this point.  Steals have never been a good measure of how good defensively a player is.  Good defensive players can get a lot of steals (Vander, Juan) and bad defensive players can get a lot of steals (Junior, Deonte).

[NersEllenson]

Posted on another board:

So far this year, Derrick has 37 assists in 271 minutes. That's one every 7.32 minutes. Last year Junior had 133 assists in 982 minutes. One every 7.38 minutes. All with having a A/TO ratio of 2.8...Junior's was 1.5.

Derrick's OR right now is 98.7. Junior's was 96.2. This despite the fact that Junior was a better shooter and scored more points. And of course Derrick is a much better defender than Junior was.

Now of course Derrick's numbers may fade as we get into BE play, but he has been much better than he has been given credit for.

Interesting analysis.  Will be interesting to see what happens when we enter the watered down Big East, as Derrick's numbers against the high level teams have left a lot to be desired - thankfully - he won't have to face Lville, Cuse, UCONN as Junior did...

[GooooMarquette]

Interesting analysis.  Will be interesting to see what happens when we enter the watered down Big East, as Derrick's numbers against the high level teams have left a lot to be desired - thankfully - he won't have to face Lville, Cuse, UCONN as Junior did...

Junior also had a solid starting SG in Vander, while Derrick has had to deal with Jake at starting SG.  Everybody has been saying "defenses have to focus on Jake" -- which might be true to an extent -- but do you think they focus on him anywhere near as much as they did on Vander last year?  Hopefully Todd and JJJ will continue to develop into players opposing defenses really have to focus on, so Derrick has the same cushion Junior often had....

[NersEllenson]

Junior also had a solid starting SG in Vander, while Derrick has had to deal with Jake at starting SG.  Everybody has been saying "defenses have to focus on Jake" -- which might be true to an extent -- but do you think they focus on him anywhere near as much as they did on Vander last year?  Hopefully Todd and JJJ will continue to develop into players opposing defenses really have to focus on, so Derrick has the same cushion Junior often had....

Think teams were still content to let Vander shoot from the perimeter based on his prior 2 years of shooting data.  Vander scored A LOT of points in transition - a fast break game that we haven't had this year.  But, to your point, good players do command some attention (Derrick commands virtually none from the opposition's defense) - which is what makes it even more difficult on a guy like Jamil - playing with the starting lineup we use...Jamil has been playing much better of late, because he's been getting more minutes with Burton, Gardner, Mayo/JJJ...and less with Jake, Derrick, Otule and Juan.

[GooooMarquette]

Think teams were still content to let Vander shoot from the perimeter based on his prior 2 years of shooting data. 

In November perhaps.  Not so much after that.

[CTWarrior]

Junior also had a solid starting SG in Vander, while Derrick has had to deal with Jake at starting SG.  Everybody has been saying "defenses have to focus on Jake" -- which might be true to an extent -- but do you think they focus on him anywhere near as much as they did on Vander last year?  Hopefully Todd and JJJ will continue to develop into players opposing defenses really have to focus on, so Derrick has the same cushion Junior often had....

If your point is somehow that defenses focused less on Junior last year than they do on Derrick this year you are flat out wrong.  Regardless of who the other guard is, it is obvious that the good teams have much less interest in guarding Derrick Wilson this year than they had in guarding Junior Cadougan last year.  

That's why I think that if his numbers are the same as Cadougan's last year, he is performing worse because he is producing those numbers with much less defensive pressure, which in turn means the other guys are facing more defensive pressure.  That's why you have to watch the games and not just look at the numbers.

Last night, Ball State defended him straight up most of the game.  This plays into MU's hands, because now Derrick becomes a threat, because with tight defensive pressure driving lanes are opened to him.  To his credit, he took advantage of them for layups and assists.  The other benefit is that the balance of our guys have more room to operate.  When teams are not smart enough to sag way off of him, he becomes a useful offensive player.  

Jake Thomas, OTOH, is completely stymied by tight defensive coverage, because he can't shake free.  He needs for his man to have to help out elsewhere and then receive the kick out for the three.  Smart teams will always leave a guy hanging with JT, because that neutralizes him.  Those same teams will slough off of Derrick Wilson to help elsewhere until he shows he can make some perimter shots, because thus far, if he has no driving lanes he has no offensive game.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

 That's why I think that if his numbers are the same as Cadougan's last year, he is performing worse because he is producing those numbers with much less defensive pressure, which in turn means the other guys are facing more defensive pressure.  That's why you have to watch the games and not just look at the numbers.

So what #'s would Derrick have to produce to be considered equal to Cadougan?

5% better than Junior? 10% better?

[CTWarrior]

So what #'s would Derrick have to produce to be considered equal to Cadougan?

5% better than Junior? 10% better?

My point is that the individual stats don't tell the story.  Last night, facing a team playing straight defense on him, if you are so inclined you can take his numbers pretty much at face value and say he had a great game, which he did.  On another night, when the defense is sagging off of him and letting him go where he wants to within 15 feet and our interior guys can't get going because of the clogged lane and our 2G isn't getting open looks, if Derrick scores 10 points and has 5 assists that still is not good because his defender is hampering the rest of the team.  That's my point.  Basketball is not baseball, the numbers for any one guy don't tell the whole story of his value.  You have to see how everything fits on the floor.

[forgetful]

Posted on another board:

So far this year, Derrick has 37 assists in 271 minutes. That's one every 7.32 minutes. Last year Junior had 133 assists in 982 minutes. One every 7.38 minutes. All with having a A/TO ratio of 2.8...Junior's was 1.5.

Derrick's OR right now is 98.7. Junior's was 96.2. This despite the fact that Junior was a better shooter and scored more points. And of course Derrick is a much better defender than Junior was.

Now of course Derrick's numbers may fade as we get into BE play, but he has been much better than he has been given credit for.

Strict numbers don't mean anything.  The Bucks brought Junior in for tryouts and were going to bring him in for summer camp (I realize this is partially a local thing), no one would bring in Derrick for the equivalent.  There is a giant chasm between the two of them in terms of talent and what they bring to the table. 

I'm not saying that makes Derrick, bad, rather Junior was a lot better than people give him credit for.  Derrick is serviceable that is it.

[GGGG]

Strict numbers don't mean anything.  The Bucks brought Junior in for tryouts and were going to bring him in for summer camp (I realize this is partially a local thing), no one would bring in Derrick for the equivalent.  There is a giant chasm between the two of them in terms of talent and what they bring to the table. 

I'm not saying that makes Derrick, bad, rather Junior was a lot better than people give him credit for.  Derrick is serviceable that is it.

Alright...I give up.  Derrick won't get a camp invite in 2015.  You have to see how pieces fit on the floor.

I guess subjective self-rationalization is a better judge.

[GooooMarquette]

If your point is somehow that defenses focused less on Junior last year than they do on Derrick this year you are flat out wrong.  Regardless of who the other guard is, it is obvious that the good teams have much less interest in guarding Derrick Wilson this year than they had in guarding Junior Cadougan last year.

It has nothing with the other team's "interest" in guarding Derrick or Junior...and everything in who the opponent actually focuses on in their defensive scheme.  

Last year, any team with a sober coach would have to focus more on Vander than Junior...even if that coach also had "interest" in defending Junior.  This year, our starting SG has hardly garnered the kind of respect and attention that Vander did.

[CTWarrior]

Alright...I give up.  Derrick won't get a camp invite in 2015.  You have to see how pieces fit on the floor.

I guess subjective self-rationalization is a better judge.

What part of what I said do you disagree with?  You really can't see in some games where his defender ignoring him to help elsewhere might boost his numbers while hurting the team overall?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

My point is that the individual stats don't tell the story.  Last night, facing a team playing straight defense on him, if you are so inclined you can take his numbers pretty much at face value and say he had a great game, which he did.  On another night, when the defense is sagging off of him and letting him go where he wants to within 15 feet and our interior guys can't get going because of the clogged lane and our 2G isn't getting open looks, if Derrick scores 10 points and has 5 assists that still is not good because his defender is hampering the rest of the team.  That's my point.  Basketball is not baseball, the numbers for any one guy don't tell the whole story of his value.  You have to see how everything fits on the floor.

Yea, but doesn't that seem arbitrary?

"Derrick's numbers look good, but it's only because that team didn't guard him."

I don't remember anybody saying that when DJO or Jae would have a great game. Hell, Juan has had 2 good games in a row, and nobody has attributed it to how he is or isn't being guarded.

Derrick certainly has his limitations. He might not be better than Junior. Fine. But, the idea that we can shrug off his statistics because of how he's being guarded seems too arbitrary to me.

[chapman]

Vander scored A LOT of points in transition - a fast break game that we haven't had this year.

Hoping that the defensive focus is changing based on the past two games, particularly with Buzz letting Juan and the freshmen cover some ground and play disruptive defense.  Lockdown defense is good, disruptive defense is better since we need the transition opportunities.

[GGGG]

What part of what I said do you disagree with?  You really can't see in some games where his defender ignoring him to help elsewhere might boost his numbers while hurting the team overall?

I think you are exaggerating the problem.

Marquette is scoring at basically the same rate as they did last year at this time EVEN IF you completely exclude the Grambling State game....slightly under 70 ppg.  And they are actually, despite all the doom and gloom around here, shooting about the same overall and *better* from 3.

Does Derrick need to be a threat?  No doubt...and he has gotten better in that regard since Ohio State.  And yeah I do realize stats don't tell the entire story here, but I think you guys are looking for things that really aren't there.

[NersEllenson]

Yea, but doesn't that seem arbitrary?

"Derrick's numbers look good, but it's only because that team didn't guard him."

I don't remember anybody saying that when DJO or Jae would have a great game. Hell, Juan has had 2 good games in a row, and nobody has attributed it to how he is or isn't being guarded.

Derrick certainly has his limitations. He might not be better than Junior. Fine. But, the idea that we can shrug off his statistics because of how he's being guarded seems too arbitrary to me.

Well, that's because you don't get it.  Ball State was the first team, I recall, seeing play Derrick straight up, in his face, like you would most good PG's.  Idiotically, they didn't sag/help off of him, which benefits the team 2 ways:  1) Derrick is better able to beat a man (albeit a 5'7" 170lbs guard) off the bounce and get into the lane.  2) Less help defense on our bigs and Jake - as when they sag 5' off of Derrick and cram the lane, that causes congestion and makes it difficult for Derrick to penetrate.

I'd LOVE it if teams the rest of the way defend Derrick as Ball State did, because it will make our team (and Derrick) much better.

[CTWarrior]

Yea, but doesn't that seem arbitrary?

"Derrick's numbers look good, but it's only because that team didn't guard him."

I don't remember anybody saying that when DJO or Jae would have a great game. Hell, Juan has had 2 good games in a row, and nobody has attributed it to how he is or isn't being guarded.

Derrick certainly has his limitations. He might not be better than Junior. Fine. But, the idea that we can shrug off his statistics because of how he's being guarded seems too arbitrary to me.

I am saying you simply can't say because his numbers are the same as Cadougan's he is performing the same or as well as Cadougan.  The situations are different, and to me, the biggest variable is the relative lack of defense Derrick is facing most nights.  It is not every night, however.  Ball State played him straight up.  Maybe it is a little arbitrary, but so far on most nights it is so obvious that it can't be ignored.  To some people, the biggest variable is that Vander is better than Jake.  I think that is less of an issue because our opponents are keeping a guy on Jake everywhere and it's not like the other team was doubling Vander everywhere (and when they did, it was not usually with Cadougan's man)

I have felt all along that if we could find a way to force the defense to play Derrick straight up, it would open a lot of things up for everybody and we will be a much better offense.  I still believe that.  I will go on believing that until I see evidence to the contrary.  Last night was an example of that, though Ball State wasn't forced to play Derrick straight up.  They simply chose to.

[jesmu84]

What part of what I said do you disagree with?  You really can't see in some games where his defender ignoring him to help elsewhere might boost his numbers while hurting the team overall?

If people are sagging off of him, wouldn't it be harder to get assists?