Buzz needs to sit Derrick Wilson

[CTWarrior]

I think you are exaggerating the problem.

Well, I suppose I can see where you could believe that from what I wrote.  I have no idea what the effect is on the team overall or how to quantify it, and I didn't mean to imply that I could.  I do know that it is something and that's why a comparison, to me, of Cadougan's and Wilson's numbers are not apples to apples.

[CTWarrior]

If people are sagging off of him, wouldn't it be harder to get assists?

This is a good question.  Other than last night and Grambling, most of the assists I see from Derrick are his usual perimeter to perimeter passes that aren't defended and then the receiver drives and scores or makes a jumper.  When you have the ball as much as Derrick does and you throw as many perimeter to perimeter passes as he does, eventually some of them pay off with assists. 

I will quit on this topic now.  A couple of points that bear repeating.
1.  I think Derrick is our best option at the point.
2.  I think Derrick is playing better now than he was a month ago.
3.  I think Derrick is a plus defender and a plus rebounder.
4.  I think Jake Thomas on the floor at the same time as Derrick highlights his shortcomings
5.  I think Derrick is a minus offensive player that good teams will take advantage of by doubling Gardner and forcing him further from the basket to get open, much moreso than in previous seasons with Derrick's predecessor.
6.  I think limiting his minutes to more of the 25 a game would help Derrick and MU by not allowing the defense to get in the groove of sagging off of him.
7.  I think I know a lot about basketball from experience, but I am smart enough to know I doon't know everything.
8.  I think I am verbose.

[bilsu]

Derrick does not make turnovers, because he does not take chances which elimates assist opportunities.

[NersEllenson]

If people are sagging off of him, wouldn't it be harder to get assists?

Ahh yes, those of the creative variety that good point guards make - not just those that are the result of frequent ball swings, and the ball coming through Derrick at the point most frequently as pointed out by CT Warrior.

Why don't we conduct a fun exercise, and count all of the assists Derrick has the rest of the year that are the result of him driving the basketball, forcing help, where he dumps it off and the player scores without needing a dribble?  Junior created those looks frequently for our bigs.

[jesmu84]

This is a good question.  Other than last night and Grambling, most of the assists I see from Derrick are his usual perimeter to perimeter passes that aren't defended and then the receiver drives and scores or makes a jumper.  When you have the ball as much as Derrick does and you throw as many perimeter to perimeter passes as he does, eventually some of them pay off with assists. 

It is a good question. And here's why. You just made the statement that defenders sagging off of Derrick would somehow inflate his numbers and be a negative for the team. Yet, Derrick's numbers point to more a distributor than a scorer. If his defender is sagging off and helping defend others, assists should be harder to come by as the other players would have a more difficult time scoring. So how would defenders sagging of Derrick help inflate his assist numbers?


jeez. you guys will do whatever argumentative voodoo you can to tear down the kid huh? highlight his shortcomings and discredit his positives. if you'd like to take a break from the team and scoop, i can PM you when we have 5 all-americans starting.

[GGGG]

Derrick does not make turnovers, because he does not take chances which elimates assist opportunities.

Then how come he is getting more assists per minute than Junior did last year?

[NavinRJohnson]

Ahh yes, those of the creative variety that good point guards make - not just those that are the result of frequent ball swings, and the ball coming through Derrick at the point most frequently as pointed out by CT Warrior.

Why don't we conduct a fun exercise, and count all of the assists Derrick has the rest of the year that are the result of him driving the basketball, forcing help, where he dumps it off and the player scores without needing a dribble?  Junior created those looks frequently for our bigs.

I see..now even his assists aren't any good.

[Lennys Tap]

I see..now even his assists aren't any good.

So do we not count any of JJJ's jump shots because they don't look pretty. Are we talking basketball or art appreciation?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I am saying you simply can't say because his numbers are the same as Cadougan's he is performing the same or as well as Cadougan.  The situations are different, and to me, the biggest variable is the relative lack of defense Derrick is facing most nights.  It is not every night, however.  Ball State played him straight up.  Maybe it is a little arbitrary, but so far on most nights it is so obvious that it can't be ignored.  To some people, the biggest variable is that Vander is better than Jake.  I think that is less of an issue because our opponents are keeping a guy on Jake everywhere and it's not like the other team was doubling Vander everywhere (and when they did, it was not usually with Cadougan's man)

I have felt all along that if we could find a way to force the defense to play Derrick straight up, it would open a lot of things up for everybody and we will be a much better offense.  I still believe that.  I will go on believing that until I see evidence to the contrary.  Last night was an example of that, though Ball State wasn't forced to play Derrick straight up.  They simply chose to.

The stats say Derrick and Junior are pretty even. The eye test might say something different (as you stated above), and that's fine. But, let's not just dismiss Derrick's performance when he plays well. I think that's a bit unfair.

Davante was single teamed for a lot of last night. He had a pretty efficient game. I haven't read anybody critiquing him because he wasn't guarded correctly by the opposition.

Derrick has a good game, and it's "yea, but Ball State is stupid". C'mon. Let's not do that.

[Lennys Tap]

.

Derrick has a good game, and it's "yea, but Ball State is stupid". C'mon. Let's not do that.

And John Dawson makes a nice pass against Grambling St and people think that earns him big minutes.  People want the new toy even when there's no evidence it's as good as the old one.


 

[CTWarrior]

But, let's not just dismiss Derrick's performance when he plays well. I think that's a bit unfair.

That is very unfair but I don't dismiss his performance against Ball State at all.  It is obvious to me and you and everybody that DeWilson played well against Ball State.  If teams don't use his defender to pack the middle he will take advantage of his strength to penetrate, he will be effective and we are going to be an efficient offense.  Most of our quality opponents have chosen that to play him soft and pack the middle and double Gardner on or before the catch with his DeWilson's man and our offense has often bogged down as a result.  That is what I think our Big East opponents are going to try to do.  If we are going to have the successful top-25 type season we want to have, he and/or Buzz is going to have to find a way for him/us to be effective when that happens.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

That is very unfair but I don't dismiss his performance against Ball State at all.  It is obvious to me and you and everybody that DeWilson played well against Ball State.  If teams don't use his defender to pack the middle he will take advantage of his strength to penetrate, he will be effective and we are going to be an efficient offense.  Most of our quality opponents have chosen that to play him soft and pack the middle and double Gardner on or before the catch with his DeWilson's man and our offense has often bogged down as a result.  That is what I think our Big East opponents are going to try to do.  If we are going to have the successful top-25 type season we want to have, he and/or Buzz is going to have to find a way for him/us to be effective when that happens.

You're right... but the only thing I'll add is that there is more than 1 way to accomplish the goal (put the ball in the hoop).

Last season, teams sagged off of Junior as well (he was a poor shooter), but MU still found ways to score. Buzz has "bragged" (in the self-deprecating way that Buzz does) about that team's inability to shoot, yet they led the conference in FG%. It's not all about post-ups or kick outs for 3. MU found ways to create offense last year with a PG who couldn't shoot.

Derrick is going to have to do enough scoring to keep teams honest, and still find some ways to score when teams do sag off him and focus on Gardner (like Junior did last year). This ain't new.

[NersEllenson]

And John Dawson makes a nice pass against Grambling St and people think that earns him big minutes.  People want the new toy even when there's no evidence it's as good as the old one.
 

It's deeper than simply liking the new toy Lenny.  Generally agree with your viewpoints on things, but respectfully disagree on Derrick.  He's played more minutes than anyone on the team, and his season efficiency rating is a clear cut dead last.  It's a bad deal when the guy getting the most minutes on the team, and at the PG position, is far and away your most inefficient player.  Dawson is a far more natural PG, who sees the floor much better - and has shown himself to be a very solid defender, and has 4 turnovers for the whole year.

Derrick was invisible against OSU and UW, the two very good teams we played.  Played well against ASU, but Carson still got off for 23 even though in foul trouble, and then Thames from SDSU got off for 29 on Derrick.  

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It's deeper than simply liking the new toy Lenny.  Generally agree with your viewpoints on things, but respectfully disagree on Derrick.  He's played more minutes than anyone on the team, and his season efficiency rating is a clear cut dead last.  It's a bad deal when the guy getting the most minutes on the team, and at the PG position, is far and away your most inefficient player.  Dawson is a far more natural PG, who sees the floor much better - and has shown himself to be a very solid defender, and has 4 turnovers for the whole year.

Derrick was invisible against OSU and UW, the two very good teams we played.  Played well against ASU, but Carson still got off for 23 even though in foul trouble, and then Thames from SDSU got off for 29 on Derrick.  

Dawson would have been worse against OSU and UW.

Carson did get 23 off but that was 1 point below his season average. Thames did get 29 off by going 10/11 from FT and 5/6 from three. The kid could just not be stopped. Derrick did hold him to 2/10 from 2P range

[Lennys Tap]

It's deeper than simply liking the new toy Lenny.  Generally agree with your viewpoints on things, but respectfully disagree on Derrick.  He's played more minutes than anyone on the team, and his season efficiency rating is a clear cut dead last.  It's a bad deal when the guy getting the most minutes on the team, and at the PG position, is far and away your most inefficient player.  Dawson is a far more natural PG, who sees the floor much better - and has shown himself to be a very solid defender, and has 4 turnovers for the whole year.

Derrick was invisible against OSU and UW, the two very good teams we played.  Played well against ASU, but Carson still got off for 23 even though in foul trouble, and then Thames from SDSU got off for 29 on Derrick.  

I agree that Derrick has been at best average this year, Ners. But the fact that he's logged the most minutes of anyone on the team speaks volumes about how Buzz feels about his alternatives at his position. Now he's resorting to a guy who has never played the position in his life as a back up to Derrick. That means based on what he's seen in practice and in games, Buzz has zero confidence in John Dawson right now. You do. I'll go with Buzz on this one.