Gotta start it...Dawson needs to be starting PG

[NersEllenson]

Oh yes, absolutely.

- Total Minutes Played (season)
- Total Points Scored (season)
- Player Rating (I believe Sugar or Blackheart track this, right?).
- Total Assists (good PG stat, right?)

I don't know if the mods want monetary bets on the site (feel free to correct me mods).

How about a vacation from scoop? (April 2014-October 2014)

Bolded categories should be based off of Per 40 minute metrics - as only way to measure true head to head comparison.  It would be counter-Buzz to bench a vet for a freshman, so you have that going for you as it is..which should point to a victory in the Total Minutes category.  Other categories need to be apples to apples.

And yes...an April-October break from Scoop is agreeable...

[NersEllenson]

The point to this is that Dawson isn't better than Derrick on the offensive end of the floor.

Do you genuinely believe this?  And, would you not agree that with the new hand check rules, and limiting of physical play - it takes away Derrick's greatest asset as a defender?

[chapman]

Why is scoring constantly repeated?  It's not even what is being suggested as the difference between the two.  Dawson hasn't shown he can score either.  Possibly that he isn't afraid to try, but not that he hasn't done it.  From a limited sample, he's shown that he understands tempo and isn't afraid to push it, moves more fluidly, isn't get shy about dribbling or passing north-south, and doesn't get scared and pick up his dribble to make a safe pass if a defender is within six feet of him.  We'll see if this holds when the competition increases, or if he gets shy or turnover prone instead.  

[NersEllenson]

Why is scoring constantly repeated?  It's not even what is being suggested as the difference between the two.  Dawson hasn't shown he can score either.  Possibly that he isn't afraid to try, but not that he hasn't done it.  From a limited sample, he's shown that he understands tempo and isn't afraid to push it, moves more fluidly, isn't get shy about dribbling or passing north-south, and doesn't get scared and pick up his dribble to make a safe pass if a defender is within six feet of him.  We'll see if this holds when the competition increases, or if he gets shy or turnover prone instead.  

Bingo.  His assists last night were a thing of beauty...as was the one drive he did score on..

[GGGG]

Bolded categories should be based off of Per 40 minute metrics - as only way to measure true head to head comparison.  It would be counter-Buzz to bench a vet for a freshman, so you have that going for you as it is..which should point to a victory in the Total Minutes category.  Other categories need to be apples to apples.

And yes...an April-October break from Scoop is agreeable...

That's bullsh*t Ners.  According to that metric, a PG that plays 2 mpg and has 1 assist is better than one that plays 30 mpg and has 10 assists.

I would do an assist to turnover ratio...but you need to have a certain number of assists for the season to even qualify....say 50.  Then I would do ppg, with again a certain number of points for qualification....say 50 as well.

If neither qualify, it's a push.

[GGGG]

Do you genuinely believe this?  And, would you not agree that with the new hand check rules, and limiting of physical play - it takes away Derrick's greatest asset as a defender?

Yes.  Considering that offense is more than scoring, Derrick is the better offensive PG.

And it doesn't look like the hand check rules are hurting Derrick so far.  In fact it looks like he is going to great pains to keep his hand off of players...like he was coached or something.

[Tums Festival]

You realize that there is more to offense than scoring right?

Of course. I just think we're seeing all that Derrick is going to offer whereas Dawson brings a higher ceiling. Good thing we have both guys.

[MU82]

I was mildly encouraged by Derrick's second half last night. Made more good passes, even penetrated a few times.

To answer the question what do I expect out of my pass-first PG ... I expect him to be at least a threat to score. There's no better example for Marquetters than Tony Miller. He was a 36% shooter. He wasn't a very good FT shooter (under 60% career) and in only one of his 4 seasons did he average double-figures (and that was about 11 pts as a senior). But he knew how to run an offense, he knew how to get into the middle of a defense so he could create for his teammates, and he also knew when it was important for the PG to score -- or at least TRY to score.

I don't expect Derrick to be as good as Tony Miller was, but that's a good template because they are similar athletes with fairly similar backgrounds.

Oh, and even if my PG isn't a great scorer, I want him to have the ability and the balls to take (and preferably make) the 3-pointer that Cadougan made against UConn last year. Can anybody here honestly say they envision Derrick doing that?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Bolded categories should be based off of Per 40 minute metrics - as only way to measure true head to head comparison.  It would be counter-Buzz to bench a vet for a freshman, so you have that going for you as it is..which should point to a victory in the Total Minutes category.  Other categories need to be apples to apples.

And yes...an April-October break from Scoop is agreeable...

Fair enough.

MPG
PPG
APG
Player rating (sugar or blackhart)

TIEBREAKER: Conference play Player Rating

6 month vacation... starting the day after MU wins the national title (or loses in the tourny).

[mu-rara]

We have a guy to come in and spell DeWil, with little (or no) dropoff.  That should be really encouraging.

It is obvious that Dawson has some skills.  If he progresses enough over the course of the season that Buzz starts him, cool.

Way to early to bump off DeWil.  Those who don't appreciate his complete game are missing the boat.

I am not going to judge either player on a game against Grambling.  

[MerrittsMustache]

First point - Not sure how you can say Duane has more upside than Dawson...simply based on high school ratings. Buzz himself said Duane had a long way to go....funny he didn't make that comment about Dawson.

Did anyone ask Buzz about Dawson?

As for your other examples - Mayo and Jamil have shown they can produce at this level...at least shown a good number of flashes of being able to produce at this level.  Derrick?  He's shown he can be a quality backup PG...his best performance to this day still was against Jordan Taylor and UW - that was far and away the most impressive thing we've seen from De-Will.  He's a gritty defender, and solid with the ball.  Not a playmaker.  Dawson has playmaking ability, and the athletic tools to be a very good defender...and I'd say better tools now with the knew rules in place with no hand checking.  Derrick's body/physicality are his greatest asset defensively...and that is somewhat mitigated by the new rules.

Interesting that you don't think Duane Wilson has more upside than the other MU PGs but you're ready to make the bolded proclamation above based on seeing Dawson play in 26 minutes of actions, 20 of which came against the worst team in D1.

[MUfan12]

Interesting that you don't think Duane Wilson has more upside than the other MU PGs but you're ready to make the bolded proclamation above based on seeing Dawson play in 26 minutes of actions, 20 of which came against the worst team in D1.

Don't want to speak for Ners, but I think Duane's upside is playing more of a combo guard.

Personally, I think he can play PG at this level. But he'd be more of a scoring PG than either John or Derrick.

[NersEllenson]

Did anyone ask Buzz about Dawson?

Interesting that you don't think Duane Wilson has more upside than the other MU PGs but you're ready to make the bolded proclamation above based on seeing Dawson play in 26 minutes of actions, 20 of which came against the worst team in D1.

Fair point on if anyone asked Buzz about Dawson...I don't recall hearing Buzz commenting on Dawson, but did make the comments on Duane having a long way to go, but having the right approach..

But to your point, I'm not going to measure Dawson against Duane Wilson, till I've seen them play against the same competition...was merely stating that it may not be the landslide some would led to believe that Duane is the better of the two (compared to Dawson).

Sure wish we could be seeing Duane in action. 

[bilsu]

It's easy to shut down a streak shooter like Jake if you need to. He doesn't put the ball on the floor, he doesn't drive, he is a one-trick pony IMO. With other guys on the floor who can drive, he can be an asset. But to me, Jake and Derrick together isn't a high-level D1 recipe. Mayo is a scorer. He can be a streak shooter, which then sets up his drives and finishes. Mayo is just as much of a space creater as Jake, with so much more upside.  It's too bad Jake can't play the point. He is a decent passer and plays good D.

My point is that the opposing team cannot ignore Thomas when MU is on offense. They would be foolish to back off of Thomas and leave him open. They can at this point back off of Derrick. I suspect as the season comes along Derrick will become a better scorer, but it will not be significant. I can see him averaging about 4 points a game.

[Nevada233]

right Dawson was rated off a inflated high school scale.... the kids from New Mexico...... I doubt anyone even seen him play before rating him.... he has a high basketball iq.. and that 25 foot bounce pass was insane.... I stop what im doing and focus on the tv when this kid is on the floor... he will be special...

[jsglow]

Wow.  Lengthy discussion.  I'm simply pleased that John appears capable of meaningful minutes after two solid performances against SWAC opponents. If that means 15 per game I'll be thrilled. 

[brewcity77]

What's really funny is that it seems the guy who believes Buzz walks on water also thinks Buzz is an idiot when it comes to managing his point guards. I mean, that has to be it, right? If it's so obvious from the stands and television set that Dawson is the man, then the guy that sees him up close in practice and games every day must be blind, deaf, and flat out stupid to not see what so many Scoopers accept as evident.

I'm glad Buzz isn't an idiot. I'm glad he can see who the better player is. Right now it's Derrick. I'm glad Dawson has been an able backup in our first two games. But this far, that's all he is. Thank you Buzz for realizing that when so many cannot.

[Lennys Tap]

One thing I think we can all agree on - Derrick is the steadiest ball handler we have. But what do we do at the end of games that we're winning? Ball protection is obviously important, but so is the ability to make free throws. Unless Derrick can figure that out he sits in those situations. Mayo, Thomas, Jamil, Davante and someone TBD will be on the floor.

[Lighthouse 84]

One thing I think we can all agree on - Derrick is the steadiest ball handler we have. But what do we do at the end of games that we're winning? Ball protection is obviously important, but so is the ability to make free throws. Unless Derrick can figure that out he sits in those situations. Mayo, Thomas, Jamil, Davante and someone TBD will be on the floor.

Exactly Lenny.  +1

[NersEllenson]

What's really funny is that it seems the guy who believes Buzz walks on water also thinks Buzz is an idiot when it comes to managing his point guards. I mean, that has to be it, right? If it's so obvious from the stands and television set that Dawson is the man, then the guy that sees him up close in practice and games every day must be blind, deaf, and flat out stupid to not see what so many Scoopers accept as evident.

I'm glad Buzz isn't an idiot. I'm glad he can see who the better player is. Right now it's Derrick. I'm glad Dawson has been an able backup in our first two games. But this far, that's all he is. Thank you Buzz for realizing that when so many cannot.

Ahh yes....I have been one of Buzz's biggest fans since his first year here and said he was the real deal and had the "it" factor....also said the same about Davante first semester freshman year...said he'd be as good/possibly better than Robert Jackson...all of which were met with ridicule by some...now I say the same about Dawson....and again, some of you feel I'm an idiot for making the statement early on...

And, quite frankly, I have no issue with Buzz - he already gave Dawson 20 minutes (an equal share) as to Derrick in just Game 2 of the season....so....I suspect he sees Dawson's potential - if he didn't...no way he gives him 20 minutes of run....

[GGGG]

Ahh yes....I have been one of Buzz's biggest fans since his first year here and said he was the real deal and had the "it" factor....also said the same about Davante first semester freshman year...said he'd be as good/possibly better than Robert Jackson...all of which were met with ridicule by some...now I say the same about Dawson....and again, some of you feel I'm an idiot for making the statement early on...

And, quite frankly, I have no issue with Buzz - he already gave Dawson 20 minutes (an equal share) as to Derrick in just Game 2 of the season....so....I suspect he sees Dawson's potential - if he didn't...no way he gives him 20 minutes of run....

You've gone from "Dawson needs to be starting PG" to Dawson is the "real deal and has the 'it' factor." 

And no one has said you were an "idiot" or has "ridiculed" you for saying that he has potential.  So you can stop playing the victim.  (a la Chicos)  I think pretty much everyone recognizes that he has potential.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

You've gone from "Dawson needs to be starting PG" to Dawson is the "real deal and has the 'it' factor." 

And no one has said you were an "idiot" or has "ridiculed" you for saying that he has potential.  So you can stop playing the victim.  (a la Chicos)  I think pretty much everyone recognizes that he has potential.

Sultan, that's not actually fair. Ners has said a lot more than "Dawson needs to be starting"

Now yes, it is Grambling - but I'll tell you what - Dawson has the look of a better point guard than we've had here since Diener.  Yes...a huge statement...but he's making passes that are Magic Johnson good.

I agree that Saturday is not the time to elevate Dawson - hell he may not start all year - but I suspect he'll be playing more minutes than D-Will as the year goes on.  WAY more upside.

[GGGG]

Heh...my apologies.

[bilsu]

One thing I think we can all agree on - Derrick is the steadiest ball handler we have. But what do we do at the end of games that we're winning? Ball protection is obviously important, but so is the ability to make free throws. Unless Derrick can figure that out he sits in those situations. Mayo, Thomas, Jamil, Davante and someone TBD will be on the floor.

Right now we do not know if either can make a free throw under pressure. James was a 50% free throw shooter overall, but he was better than that in the last minute. He still was not a good free throw shooter, but I would of rather had him at the line with the game on the line than some of the other players on his team. It would frustrate me to no end when as a sophomore or junior DJO, who was around a 70% free throw shooter lost us games because he could not make one with the game on the line. I prefer Derrick not to be fouled at an end of game situation, but I do not know if I rather have Dawson shooting the free throw instead of Derrick.

[Aughnanure]

Right now we do not know if either can make a free throw under pressure. James was a 50% free throw shooter overall, but he was better than that in the last minute. He still was not a good free throw shooter, but I would of rather had him at the line with the game on the line than some of the other players on his team. It would frustrate me to no end when as a sophomore or junior DJO, who was around a 70% free throw shooter lost us games because he could not make one with the game on the line. I prefer Derrick not to be fouled at an end of game situation, but I do not know if I rather have Dawson shooting the free throw instead of Derrick.

Actually 62%. Basically shot 65% for 1st 3 years and had a horrendous start his sr yr finishing with something like 47%. But yeah, he did make the big ones when he needed to.