Gotta start it...Dawson needs to be starting PG

[ATL MU Warrior]

Start up the DVR.  The spot on the carpet is still wet with my drool from Dawson's passing.

Unfortunately I am away from home for work for the rest of the week.  I did record the game and intend to watch when I get back.

I don't doubt Dawson looked good and am glad that he did.  Maybe just a tad premature to name him as the starter after a decent game against one of the worst teams in college basketball.

[Tums Festival]

Including tonight's game, Derrick Wilson has scored 61 points in his college career. Offensively, we're playing 4 against 5 when he's in the game.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

Including tonight's game, Derrick Wilson has scored 61 points in his college career. Offensively, we're playing 4 against 5 when he's in the game.

You realize that there is more to offense than scoring right?

[wadesworld]

Including tonight's game, Derrick Wilson has scored 61 points in his college career. Offensively, we're playing 4 against 5 when he's in the game.

Good thing he got us 10 assists. That's 20 points at the very least. Then take into account the passes he made that led to free throws.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Good thing he got us 10 assists. That's 20 points at the very least. Then take into account the passes he made that led to free throws.

+1.  DeWilson with a 154 ORating and Dawson with a 98 tonight.

[brewcity77]

Including tonight's game, Derrick Wilson has scored 61 points in his college career. Offensively, we're playing 4 against 5 when he's in the game.

And this is why being the MU PG sucks. Because once upon a time, someone said "playing Derrick is like 4 on 5" and it becomes this constant mantra even on nights when he looks fantastic running the offense. DeWil had a freaking 10/1 A/T ratio! And yes, Dawson looked good, but it's not like he dropped a triple double, he had 2 freaking points.

Derrick is the starting PG and he should continue to be the starting PG. Dawson has shown he is a capable backup against 2 SWAC teams. But if we're going to elevate him to starting point based on his performance against Grambling, well that's just about the dumbest thing ever said on Scoop. Even worse that so many people jumped on the idiot bandwagon.

[seakm4]

You realize that there is more to offense than scoring right?

Only the sophisticated fan realizes there's more to offense than scoring

[NersEllenson]

And this is why being the MU PG sucks. Because once upon a time, someone said "playing Derrick is like 4 on 5" and it becomes this constant mantra even on nights when he looks fantastic running the offense. DeWil had a freaking 10/1 A/T ratio! And yes, Dawson looked good, but it's not like he dropped a triple double, he had 2 freaking points.

Derrick is the starting PG and he should continue to be the starting PG. Dawson has shown he is a capable backup against 2 SWAC teams. But if we're going to elevate him to starting point based on his performance against Grambling, well that's just about the dumbest thing ever said on Scoop. Even worse that so many people jumped on the idiot bandwagon.

So we are going to get excited about Derrick Wilson 10 to 1 Turnover to Assist Ratio against Grambling?  And FYI Dawson's 2 points are 2 more than Derrick got.  There's also something called the eye test - and any "idiot" with a shred of basketball knowledge can see that John Dawson has a much higher ceiling than Derrick Wilson.  We've seen 2 years of Derrick, he is what he is - a solid game manager type of PG.  Dawson is far more dynamic, creative, and fluid - he can be a difference maker - Derrick?  Not so much.  We can be good with Derrick at the point - feel we can be great if we get Dawson up and running with 25-30 minutes per game...a few bumps along the way, but come March...it will have been the right decision.

[NersEllenson]

Anybody else notice how much more aggressive Burton was than Jamil?  He needs to be starting at the 4.

Also, Todd has unturned the corner that he turned against Southern, and Jake is now a sniper.

Agreed?

See how stupid it looks to make generalizations about players based on a cupcake opponent?

Pretty funny Wades....by your account after the Southern game - you wouldn't think Todd turned any kind of corner - he didn't pass enough for you.  Now against Grambling of course, he goes for 4 assists....so for you...should be safe to say he's turned the corner.  K?

[Mutaman]

So we are going to get excited about Derrick Wilson 10 to 1 Turnover to Assist Ratio against Grambling?  And FYI Dawson's 2 points are 2 more than Derrick got.  There's also something called the eye test - and any "idiot" with a shred of basketball knowledge can see that John Dawson has a much higher ceiling than Derrick Wilson.  We've seen 2 years of Derrick, he is what he is - a solid game manager type of PG.  Dawson is far more dynamic, creative, and fluid - he can be a difference maker - Derrick?  Not so much.  We can be good with Derrick at the point - feel we can be great if we get Dawson up and running with 25-30 minutes per game...a few bumps along the way, but come March...it will have been the right decision.

This thread goes much longer and he'll have John up to 50 minutes per game.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Anybody else notice how much more aggressive Burton was than Jamil?  He needs to be starting at the 4.

Also, Todd has unturned the corner that he turned against Southern, and Jake is now a sniper.

Agreed?

See how stupid it looks to make generalizations about players based on a cupcake opponent?

I actually thought Todd played extremely well. A very quiet 10 points but did not force anything or take bad shots. Took what the defense gave him and made a lot of nice drive and kicks when the defense closed in on him.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Personally, I like Derrick running the point more than Dawson. I think he's a better floor general, a better passer, a better defender, and a better leader. Dawson may have a higher ceiling but Derrick is better right now.

Just based on how Buzz has run things in the past, I would be willing to bet money that Derrick will start at PG every game this season and average more minutes than either Dawson or Duane (barring injury of course).

And if that's how Buzz thinks we will win, then I trust it. Buzz is much better at this than all of us combined.

[MUHoopsFan2]

Personally, I like Derrick running the point more than Dawson. I think he's a better floor general, a better passer, a better defender, and a better leader. Dawson may have a higher ceiling but Derrick is better right now.

Just based on how Buzz has run things in the past, I would be willing to bet money that Derrick will start at PG every game this season and average more minutes than either Dawson or Duane (barring injury of course).

And if that's how Buzz thinks we will win, then I trust it. Buzz is much better at this than all of us combined.

No he is not. He is not "better" from what I have seen. He makes some good decisions but Dawson looks like a natural. Lets not throw around "better" because with what Buzz seems to want to do with this squad both are invaluable.

What I saw from Dawson tonight was he was relaxed and poised and confident with the ball in his hands and directing the offense and has very good passing instincts and ability.

John seems to know and make the entry pass from different  angles, uses the bounce pass well and delivers the ball with two hands and right where the Big men can get it and not have to bend down to far and at the right speed.

Derrick is not flashy and very solid and will not make a dumb pass or an errant one and the players are used to receiving the ball from him. But once he picks up his dribble or gets trapped there is not much he can do.

But Dawson to me is able to make most of the passes Derrick cannot and is not as stiff a player. Granted I have only seen the kid once or twice and I am not there in practices and have seen Derrick for three years now.

But John has some explosion and wiggle and is a good spot up shooter as well it looks like. I think he adds a dimension along with Todd Mayo that can play that position well. 

Derrick is stronger but not quicker and is a safer player to bring off the bench. But Dawson has better floor presence and command but I am not that coach.

John is still a freshman and it is pointless to haggle right now because Duane Wilson is going to factor in as well. But the college game needs good PG's and Dawson will have his up and downs.

But with the no touch AT ALL RULE that I saw called in the Kentucky vs Mich ST game if that is how they are going to call it, then Steve Taylor, Chris Otule, Devante Gardner, Jamil Wilson and even Deonte Burton who all have decent hands on the catch should have a field day with these passing guards.

The Ball movement albeit was Grambling ST was great tonight as was the cutting and slashing and attacking the rim and running the floor.  

[MUHoopsFan2]

I actually thought Todd played extremely well. A very quiet 10 points but did not force anything or take bad shots. Took what the defense gave him and made a lot of nice drive and kicks when the defense closed in on him.

Only the sophisticated fan realizes there's more to offense than scoring

Yes but it depends on what position you play. Both Derrick and John got their teammates involved.

I take nothing from it other than to say I really liked what Dawson showed us and Deonte as well. Even Burton's miss shots were impressive.

This team can only get better if they can clean up their free throw shooting and adapt to this really weird no touch at all rules in the game where you cannot put a hand on your man at all, not even the forearm bar in the paint or on the post up!

Steve Taylor needs to be in the gym night and day getting a solid quick post game...so should Jamil. Devante has that down to a T.

But you will be able to operate down low now and you need a PG who can deliver that quick entry and then move and space the floor and open up slashing lanes or spot up opportunities in the half court.

I like the quick pass motion offense this year. It fits the players style. 

[Nevada233]

for dawson and wilson to even be spoken of in the same scentence speaks volumes..... Imagin when Dawson is a junior with 3 years under Buzzes system.... he maybe the best pg we've had in a long time.... hes got the size and handles... love it

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Okay self proclaimed "sophisticated" basketball mind - come back and talk sh$t when Dawson takes over the role sooner than later - or even if he doesn't start - watch the minute usage between the two guards...Dawson will begin to get more...and you'll see him on the floor during crunch time...which is saying a lot for a freshman.  Only way he doesn't is if Buzz feels a deep loyalty to the veteran.

Starting a freshman in an environment like what Saturday will be - isn't necessary when you have the vet Derrick who is serviceable....should be telling to see if Buzz gives Dawson minutes against OSU to get a true pulse on how high he is on Dawson...you see even 15 minutes out of Dawson on Saturday - Buzz likes him a lot.

I'm not as bullish on Dawson as you are.

I don't think he'll play that much, especially in conference play.

How do you want to measure this, and what are the stakes for a wager?

Minutes played? Points Scored? Blackhearts stats? Henry Sugar's stats?

[brewcity77]

Okay, I'll try to explain this, complete with (very simple) diagrams. I know a lot of people will skip the lengthy post, or gloss over for minor points they can dissect, but if you are going to push the Dawson for PG argument, I'm really going to try to tell you why it hasn't happened and likely won't happen any time soon.

First things first. Dawson is a freshman. I know, some people don't care, but I'm pretty sure Buzz does. In his 5 years here, his starting PGs have been senior Dominic James, seniors Maurice Acker and David Cubillan, senior Dwight Buycks, junior Junior Cadougan, and senior Junior Cadougan.

Buzz learned the importance of experience at the point when Tyshawn Taylor decommitted, which led to bringing Acker back and having unexpected success with two midget seniors that were willing to play a role and run a completely different system.

Right now, I get that Dawson is a flashier player. That little lay-off pass to Gardner was a thing of absolute beauty. And I'll also agree that Dawson has a higher individual ceiling. But if any of you think that this year is about individual ceilings, well clearly you don't know Buzz and haven't really learned much of anything in the five-plus years he's been the head coach here.

Here are the metrics people in the pro-Dawson crowd seem to be gravitating to:



Here is the slightest sliver of the type of metric someone like Buzz is going to gravitate to:



What the first indicates is that yes, Dawson scored one more bucket than Wilson. What the second indicates is that Wilson played a more efficient game. Regardless, this is all play against Grambling, so picking a starter based on it is about as accurate as picking the starting lineup based on Pro Am box scores. By the way, had we done that, we would have been trying to find a way to start Dwight Buycks at all five positions. Considering he's making it in the NBA while guys like DJO, Junior, and Blue are toiling overseas, maybe that would have been worth a thought.

Anyway, Buzz is looking at stats that are far above the "who scored more points" stat that seems to be dominating thinking. But more important, this isn't about individual stats! As nice as Dawson's 2-0 scoreline over Wilson is from the first diagram, and as nice as Wilson's 126-92 efficiency line is from the second diagram, neither are really what's relevant here.

What matters is not the player's individual stats or ceiling, it is the team's ceiling. Buzz has never been about creating individuals. He's been about forming a team. Boot Camp is about forming a team. The field trips are about forming a team. The scrimmages, the practices, even the meaningful cupcake games in November and December are all about forming a team. And one of the most important roles on that team is the starting point guard that needs to be Buzz's ambassador on the floor.

Buzz learned this with Acker and Cooby. By the time they were seniors, after Buzz had tried everything he could to run those midgets out of the program, they were willing to do anything to get time on the floor and to get in his good graces. That meant being the embodiment of Buzz on the court. Playing a controlled game, not turning the ball over, making the smart pass, and picking your spots when it came to shooting the ball. Clearly it worked. The next year, Buzz went with the senior in Buycks over the more heralded recruit Cadougan. Finally as a junior, Junior got the reins, and despite practice performances from Derrick (and a few Scoopers calling for DeWil to start), Buzz stuck with the guy that had been in the system and knew what he wanted on the floor.

This year, Derrick becomes that guy. He has been here. He can channel Buzz on the floor better than any of the other options at the point. And unlike many of the others, Derrick is here to play the point. He's not here to try to take over individually, to try to score every bucket, or to be the star. He's here to embody Buzz and he's here to win.

And at the end of the day, that last bit is all that matters. Because as I said above, this isn't about individual ceilings. This is about the team's ceiling. And running a controlled game, running a smart game, and not making mistakes is what Buzz wants out of his point guard because he believes that is what's going to help the team reach their ceiling. Might a starting freshman like Dawson or DuWil when he gets back put up gaudier numbers? Maybe averaging 12 ppg, 5 apg, and 3.5 tpg and looking damn good in the process? Entirely possible. But look at this team's makeup. That guy will take shots away from efficient scorers like Gardner, Jamil, and Mayo. That guy will turn the ball over when we need an extended, controlled possession. That guy will NOT be the guy who makes this the best team it can be.

We all know how this story likely ends. Most likely, this season will end with a loss. With a freshman at the point, no matter how gaudy their statline looks, the odds are a lot better that that loss takes place in St. Louis or Indianapolis. For Marquette to pass the next test, that loss needs to take place in Arlington, and Buzz will do everything he can to make sure that his team is in Arlington, even if that means starting a guy who's going to score less but make the team better in the process.

[Dreadman24]

Okay, I'll try to explain this, complete with (very simple) diagrams. I know a lot of people will skip the lengthy post, or gloss over for minor points they can dissect, but if you are going to push the Dawson for PG argument, I'm really going to try to tell you why it hasn't happened and likely won't happen any time soon.

First things first. Dawson is a freshman. I know, some people don't care, but I'm pretty sure Buzz does. In his 5 years here, his starting PGs have been senior Dominic James, seniors Maurice Acker and David Cubillan, senior Dwight Buycks, junior Junior Cadougan, and senior Junior Cadougan.

Buzz learned the importance of experience at the point when Tyshawn Taylor decommitted, which led to bringing Acker back and having unexpected success with two midget seniors that were willing to play a role and run a completely different system.

Right now, I get that Dawson is a flashier player. That little lay-off pass to Gardner was a thing of absolute beauty. And I'll also agree that Dawson has a higher individual ceiling. But if any of you think that this year is about individual ceilings, well clearly you don't know Buzz and haven't really learned much of anything in the five-plus years he's been the head coach here.

Here are the metrics people in the pro-Dawson crowd seem to be gravitating to:



Here is the slightest sliver of the type of metric someone like Buzz is going to gravitate to:



What the first indicates is that yes, Dawson scored one more bucket than Wilson. What the second indicates is that Wilson played a more efficient game. Regardless, this is all play against Grambling, so picking a starter based on it is about as accurate as picking the starting lineup based on Pro Am box scores. By the way, had we done that, we would have been trying to find a way to start Dwight Buycks at all five positions. Considering he's making it in the NBA while guys like DJO, Junior, and Blue are toiling overseas, maybe that would have been worth a thought.

Anyway, Buzz is looking at stats that are far above the "who scored more points" stat that seems to be dominating thinking. But more important, this isn't about individual stats! As nice as Dawson's 2-0 scoreline over Wilson is from the first diagram, and as nice as Wilson's 126-92 efficiency line is from the second diagram, neither are really what's relevant here.

What matters is not the player's individual stats or ceiling, it is the team's ceiling. Buzz has never been about creating individuals. He's been about forming a team. Boot Camp is about forming a team. The field trips are about forming a team. The scrimmages, the practices, even the meaningful cupcake games in November and December are all about forming a team. And one of the most important roles on that team is the starting point guard that needs to be Buzz's ambassador on the floor.

Buzz learned this with Acker and Cooby. By the time they were seniors, after Buzz had tried everything he could to run those midgets out of the program, they were willing to do anything to get time on the floor and to get in his good graces. That meant being the embodiment of Buzz on the court. Playing a controlled game, not turning the ball over, making the smart pass, and picking your spots when it came to shooting the ball. Clearly it worked. The next year, Buzz went with the senior in Buycks over the more heralded recruit Cadougan. Finally as a junior, Junior got the reins, and despite practice performances from Derrick (and a few Scoopers calling for DeWil to start), Buzz stuck with the guy that had been in the system and knew what he wanted on the floor.

This year, Derrick becomes that guy. He has been here. He can channel Buzz on the floor better than any of the other options at the point. And unlike many of the others, Derrick is here to play the point. He's not here to try to take over individually, to try to score every bucket, or to be the star. He's here to embody Buzz and he's here to win.

And at the end of the day, that last bit is all that matters. Because as I said above, this isn't about individual ceilings. This is about the team's ceiling. And running a controlled game, running a smart game, and not making mistakes is what Buzz wants out of his point guard because he believes that is what's going to help the team reach their ceiling. Might a starting freshman like Dawson or DuWil when he gets back put up gaudier numbers? Maybe averaging 12 ppg, 5 apg, and 3.5 tpg and looking damn good in the process? Entirely possible. But look at this team's makeup. That guy will take shots away from efficient scorers like Gardner, Jamil, and Mayo. That guy will turn the ball over when we need an extended, controlled possession. That guy will NOT be the guy who makes this the best team it can be.

We all know how this story likely ends. Most likely, this season will end with a loss. With a freshman at the point, no matter how gaudy their statline looks, the odds are a lot better that that loss takes place in St. Louis or Indianapolis. For Marquette to pass the next test, that loss needs to take place in Arlington, and Buzz will do everything he can to make sure that his team is in Arlington, even if that means starting a guy who's going to score less but make the team better in the process.

Dawson has the "it" factor. I don't see it in Derrick Wilson:/

[MerrittsMustache]

Where were the cries for Dawson at the starting PG after his 6-minute, 1 point, 1 TO performance against Southern?

[brewcity77]

Dawson has the "it" factor. I don't see it in Derrick Wilson:/

Then you are looking at the wrong things.

[chapman]

This thread goes much longer and he'll have John up to 50 minutes per game.

We tend to like overtime games in conference play.  It could happen!

Dawson has the "it" factor. I don't see it in Derrick Wilson:/

Agree.  I don't think he will start, but I hope he gets significant minutes, the 50/50 split of tonight would be a good start.  Encouraged by the first half when things weren't completely broken down.  I think Derrick may have gotten the message that he needs to make plays in the second half when the assists started coming, though Grambling's foul troubles made many of them about as meaningful as Anderson's 11 points.

[Lighthouse 84]

Then you are looking at the wrong things.

I get the fact that DeWil runs an efficient offense.  I get that he plays very good D.  I'm not sold on a freshman running the point either.  But with that said......if we're up by a few on Saturday with little time on the clock, who is tOSU going to foul?  Right.  The guy with the rock.  And if the guy with the rock makes only 50% of his free throws we could be looking at a loss that should have been a win. 

It'll be interesting to see if we are in that situation this year, if Buzz elects to take Derrick out and go with Mayo and JWil or Jake at the end of a game bringing the ball up, knowing they'll be at the line.

[GGGG]

Dawson has the "it" factor. I don't see it in Derrick Wilson:/

Good lord.

Brewcity makes a fantastic post about why Derrick is a better option this year, using statistical evidence to back it up, and you come back with some tired cliche.  "It" factor?  WTF is that?

The one thing I have learned with my years on Scoop is that people have absolutely no appreciation for players who don't fill in lines in box score.  Remember just last year when people were questioning Trent Lockett?  The fact is that Derrick had a major impact on the game yesterday, and yet all people focus on is his lack of scoring.  ???  And please stop feeding me the "4 against 5 line."  Again, basketball scoring isn't an individual exercise.  It is about five people working together as a team.

I said that Wilson looked "fine" after Southern, and from what I saw looked fine against Grambling.  Dawson looked good against both teams.  But here's the deal, I don't give a flying f*ck about how people look against Southern and Grambling.  Let's see what happens against a real team with a real backcourt.  

[madtownwarrior]

In the first half I did comment that with the new foul rules, we may get our wish with Derrick on the bench and seeing Dawson and Wilson more.

But then Derrick looked better in the 2nd half with some very nice assists.

We tend to like overtime games in conference play.  It could happen!


Agree.  I don't think he will start, but I hope he gets significant minutes, the 50/50 split of tonight would be a good start.  Encouraged by the first half when things weren't completely broken down.  I think Derrick may have gotten the message that he needs to make plays in the second half when the assists started coming, though Grambling's foul troubles made many of them about as meaningful as Anderson's 11 points.

[nyg]

Good lord.

Brewcity makes a fantastic post about why Derrick is a better option this year, using statistical evidence to back it up, and you come back with some tired cliche.  "It" factor?  WTF is that?

The one thing I have learned with my years on Scoop is that people have absolutely no appreciation for players who don't fill in lines in box score.  Remember just last year when people were questioning Trent Lockett?  The fact is that Derrick had a major impact on the game yesterday, and yet all people focus on is his lack of scoring.  ???  And please stop feeding me the "4 against 5 line."  Again, basketball scoring isn't an individual exercise.  It is about five people working together as a team.

I said that Wilson looked "fine" after Southern, and from what I saw looked fine against Grambling.  Dawson looked good against both teams.  But here's the deal, I don't give a flying f*ck about how people look against Southern and Grambling.  Let's see what happens against a real team with a real backcourt.  

Well they will find that out in three days against OSU's backcourt of Craft and Smith.  All the stats, charts, metrics, graphs, etc fly out the window and it is determined on the court.