Washington Redskins change their name

[Coleman]

OK, start to support it.  Native American groups have already asked that ALL imagery be removed....ALL.  Indians, Braves, Blackhawks, etc.

Let's see you you do it.  Afterall, it only takes one.


National pressure has been less on the Indians, Braves, Blackhawks and Chiefs. Obama and Reid didn't mention them. But the National Congress of American Indians, which bills itself as the nation's most representative American Indian and Alaska Native advocacy organization, has long called for the abolition of all such team names in pro sports.

"I say they're all equally offensive," Blackhorse said. "They all promote stereotypes of native people for profit. And that's not right."


Let's see some people walk the walk, which I know most of you will not.

That is honestly the first thing I've heard protesting the Blackhawks.

But if it is a legitimate quote from a legitimate Native American organization, then I think there needs to be a dialogue and the Blackhawks organization needs to listen.

There. I'm walking the walk.

[Coleman]

Because I don't think it should be changed.  More importantly, because I happen to value the opinions of Native Americans that are fine with it and don't discard them as if they are stupid, moronic, or their opinions don't count because they don't agree with someone else. 

Can't make it any more simple than that. 

What about the Native Americans who aren't fine with it? What you are saying is you are only listening to opinions that agree with what you have already decided is correct. Not a stellar example of self-reflection.

[ChicosBailBonds]

That is honestly the first thing I've heard protesting the Blackhawks.

But if it is a legitimate quote from a legitimate Native American organization, then I think there needs to be a dialogue and the Blackhawks organization needs to listen.

There. I'm walking the walk.

You're crawling, not walking.  A legitimate Native American organization is upset, if you're going to stand tall you shouldn't be condoning the Blackhawks name or usage on the sweater.  Afterall, SOMEONE is offended.

Or, as I do, wear what the hell you want and stop with the pout rage that everyone has.

[ChicosBailBonds]

That's garbage.

The crap we pulled in WWII had nothing to do with winning. Interning Japanese did not help the war effort in any way. It was wrong. And there was no reasonable justification for it.

And if that's not what you are talking about, what atrocities are you referring to? Really easy to justify something when you don't even specify what it is.

I'm talking on the battlefield.  I have some wonderful books for you to read.  Still a few vets that are around, very few, that will speak of it as well.  We did what we had to do.  War ain't pretty, but we used to fight it to win them.

[willie warrior]

Why is there no PC pressure on the state of Oklahoma. "Oklahoma" was derived from the Choctaw Indian words Okla, meaning "Red" and humma, meaning "Man". Red Man. That is racist and must be changed.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicago ABC News report in 2010. 

http://abc7chicago.com/archive/7479527/

"I'm cheering for the Blackhawks, for the Hawks. I'm going to say the Hawks," said Cyndee Fox-Starr, a Native-American.

Fox-Starr is full blood from the Omaha and Ottawa tribes. She's also a huge hockey fan. Back in the 1950s, her dad played on an all Native-American team that skated in full head-dress at the old Chicago stadium.

"I'm really torn on the logo part," Fox-Starr said.

The team name is derived from Chief Blackhawk, a person, rather than a tribe. In the early 1800s, he fought expansion by white settlers into Illinois and surrounding states.

The hockey team's first owner commanded a World War II unit nicknamed "The Blackhawk Division," after Chief Blackhawk.

"The stance is very clear. We want the logo to change," said Joe Podlasek of the American Indian Center.

Podlasek runs that center in Chicago and was instrumental in the fight to get the University of Illinois to bench its mascot, Chief Illiniwek. He says what makes the Blackhawks a bit better is they don't use a mascot to dance around and, in his opinion, mock his heritage.

In the locker room, players are told not to step on the chief logo, and fans in the stands don't do a tomahawk chop, like at Braves games in Atlanta.

But the Blackhawk logo is still a problem for some.

"For us, that's one of our grandfathers. Would you do that with your grandfather's picture? Would Take it and throw it on a rug? Walk on it and dance on it?" Podlasek said.

Some hockey fans say they are torn between their love of a team and loyalty to their heritage.

"As long as they treat it with respect, that's fine by me," Hara Jonathan said.

A few years ago, the NCAA decided schools cannot use Indian names, logos or mascots without permission from the particular tribe.

A spokesman for the Chicago Blackhawks told ABC7 Chicago the team does not get a lot of complaints about its logo.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Sound familiar...respectful and proud.  From Chicago Tribune last year.


Harjo said the Blackhawks have escaped similar scrutiny because hockey is not a cultural force on the level of football. But she said national American Indian organizations have called for an end to all Indian-related mascots and that she found the hockey team's name and Indian head symbol — designed by the original owner's wife — to be offensive.

"It lacks dignity," she said. "There's dignity in a school being named after a person or a people. There's dignity in a health clinic or hospital. There's nothing dignified in something being so named (that is used for) recreation or entertainment or fun."

Blackhawks Executive Vice President Jay Blunk responded that the team considered its logo to be "respectful and proud."

Robert Holden of the National Congress of American Indians said his group objects to "derogatory" nicknames, though that can be a complicated thing to pin down: The Seminole Tribe of Florida, for instance, supports Florida State University using Seminoles for its sports teams.

But Holden said Blackhawk is a name that should be retired, a view echoed by a namesake of the Sauk leader.

John Blackhawk is chairman of the Winnebago Tribe of Nebraska, whose ancestors had an on-and-off alliance with Black Hawk. He said doing positive things for Chicago's American Indian community does not make up for a name and logo he considers inappropriate.

"We all do contributions, but we don't do it for the sake of wanting to be forgiven for something we've done that's offensive," he said.

"I think people will wake up eventually," he said. "People are getting louder. They're realizing that wearing someone else's culture has a negative effect."

[Lennys Tap]

That's garbage.

The crap we pulled in WWII had nothing to do with winning. Interning Japanese did not help the war effort in any way. It was wrong. And there was no reasonable justification for it.

And if that's not what you are talking about, what atrocities are you referring to? Really easy to justify something when you don't even specify what it is.

I don't know what atrocities Chico is talking about but I'm reasonably sure it's not the internment of Japanese American citizens. That was a knee jerk reaction and had nothing to do with us winning the war.

I would be interested as to what they are though - my Dad was a Marine lieutenant (made captain on the battlefield) who fought on Iwo Jima, Saipan and a couple of other fun spots. No war crimes on his record but maybe Chico knows something I don't.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Blackhawks can lead by example..... http://kcchronicle.com/2014/05/27/guest-view-blackhawks-can-lead-by-example/azhzedf/?__xsl=/print.xsl


Let's see it....let's see the talkers do the walking.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Rating the most racist sports names and logos...Blackhawks near the top with some team called the Redskins.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115106/ranking-racist-sports-team-mascots-names-and-logos


Let's see the talkers do the walking.  Hypocrisy central!

[Lennys Tap]

You're crawling, not walking.  A legitimate Native American organization is upset, if you're going to stand tall you shouldn't be condoning the Blackhawks name or usage on the sweater.  Afterall, SOMEONE is offended.

Or, as I do, wear what the hell you want and stop with the pout rage that everyone has.

See an unreasonable opinion on the fringes of a topic, take an equally unreasonable one on the other fringe. That will surely lead to a common sense compromise. Problem solving 101.

[Coleman]

For what its worth, the Blackhawks have reached out to the American Indian Center of Chicago, who openly supports the logo (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-06-19/news/ct-met-indian-mascots-20130619_1_american-indians-black-hawk-mascots)

That said, if there are legitimate concerns from recognized Native American groups about the current logo, I support changing it.

I actually really like this alternative logo that has been floating around on the interwebs for years now:



Not sure what else you want me to say to "walk the walk"

[keefe]

Why is there no PC pressure on the state of Oklahoma. "Oklahoma" was derived from the Choctaw Indian words Okla, meaning "Red" and humma, meaning "Man". Red Man. That is racist and must be changed.

Do they still sell "Red Man" chew? Back in my baseball playing days Red Man was my leaf of choice. At the time I thought nothing of it. I will admit that I gave up chewing not because of the offensive racial imagery, which it was, but because my wife made clear that my continued chewing had very specific consequences. Three children later I am pleased with my decision.

[Coleman]

Do they still sell "Red Man" chew? Back in my baseball playing days Red Man was my leaf of choice. At the time I thought nothing of it. I will admit that I gave up chewing not because of the offensive racial imagery, which it was, but because my wife made clear that my continued chewing had very specific consequences. Three children later I am pleased with my decision.

That stuff is rough. I tried it in college and yacked everywhere Sandlot-style

[🏀]

[ChicosBailBonds]

It's funny, now that a few Native American groups want the Blackhawks logo removed, things aren't so ironclad.  Slippery slope.  I guess their opinions don't matter in this case, only on matters about the DC football team or Cleveland Indians.  THEY ARE WAY OVERSTEPPING THEIR BOUNDS WHEN IT COMES TO THE BLACKHAWKS.   

[MDMU04]

I'm offended by the appalling lameness of that bird rendition of Chief Blackhawk.

[ChicosBailBonds]

What about the Native Americans who aren't fine with it? What you are saying is you are only listening to opinions that agree with what you have already decided is correct. Not a stellar example of self-reflection.

That is wholly incorrect.  I said I listen to all of them, but I'm going with the majority.  You, on the other hand, are going with the one that fits your line of thinking.  Big difference.

Why does your 35% trump that of the 65% that say they are ok with it?  Or let's flip it, say it is 65% that don't want it, why ignore the 35%?

Is it majority rules only when it suits your opinion, but it's tyranny of the majority when it does not?  Sure sounds like it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

For what its worth, the Blackhawks have reached out to the American Indian Center of Chicago, who openly supports the logo (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-06-19/news/ct-met-indian-mascots-20130619_1_american-indians-black-hawk-mascots)

That said, if there are legitimate concerns from recognized Native American groups about the current logo, I support changing it.

I actually really like this alternative logo that has been floating around on the interwebs for years now:



Not sure what else you want me to say to "walk the walk"

If the VERY SAME organizations are asking to do away with Redskins and Blackhawks, and in some cases the EXACT same organizations and same people are quoted, how can justice not be done and honor their request?


For what it's worth, the Redskins have some support as well, yet I was told here that doesn't count.   The UND Fighting Sioux had support 3 to 1 vote by the Sioux Tribal Councils in North Dakota, I was told that didn't count either.  But the Blackhawks reaching out to Native American groups does?  Again...sure seems like we have all kinds of double standards going on here.  Tsk tsk.

Walk the walk, demand the change.   Don't wear any Blackhawks stuff anymore, someone is offended.  Demand the Chicago papers and tv stations not use their names on air like the meatheads in the media that won't publish the Redskins name in the paper...damn, that will show 'em.

I've given you a bunch of names and stories just in the last year on the Blackhawks name....someone is outraged, more than just someone.  Here's your chance to do what is right.  Sign that petition, burn that hat, drop those season tickets, refuse to go to any games or watch them on tv.  Get those letter writing campaigns going. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm offended by the appalling lameness of that bird rendition of Chief Blackhawk.

Since the Chicago Blackhawks once had a Native American logo, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to move on to a new logo without it bringing up imagery or mental hallucinations of Native American imagery of the past.  They cannot be separated.


Sincerely,

Marquette alumni that are for the name and logo change and couldn't accept a simple Warrior logo not depicted as a Native American

[ChicosBailBonds]

Been there, don't want to be there again.  Nothing like swallowing some chew. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Because I don't think it should be changed.  More importantly, because I happen to value the opinions of Native Americans that are fine with it and don't discard them as if they are stupid, moronic, or their opinions don't count because they don't agree with someone else. 

Can't make it any more simple than that. 

Also, the term racist is thrown around at every turn these days, mostly by one side of the political spectrum that no longer can defend many of their policies to the point that when someone else disagrees, the race card comes out.  If you don't agree with their view points, you're a racist.  Pathetically sad, but the bots just are what they are.  Reflexive.  Godwin 2.0.

Furthermore, I think political correctness is a crock.  Hypocrisy even more of a crock.   I thought it was a crock when MU gave up their name, so did most alumni. 

So if I understand you correctly, if studies showed that 50.1% of Native Americans said they wanted it changed, you would be for changing the mascot?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Rating the most racist sports names and logos...Blackhawks near the top with some team called the Redskins.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115106/ranking-racist-sports-team-mascots-names-and-logos


Let's see the talkers do the walking.  Hypocrisy central!

Chicos, you are painting with a large brush as well. There are plenty of us who don't pick and choose.

Also, there is a big difference between Chief Wahoo and Chief Blackhawk. IMO, both should be changed. But change is a process. A universal decision to ban all native american imagery from mascots is unlikely. You start by battling the most overt symbols of racism (Willie Wampum, Chief Wahoo, Redskins) and then work your way down to the seemingly innocent (Chief Blackhawk, Seminoles, Braves, etc.)

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Since the Chicago Blackhawks once had a Native American logo, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to move on to a new logo without it bringing up imagery or mental hallucinations of Native American imagery of the past.  They cannot be separated.


Sincerely,

Marquette alumni that are for the name and logo change and couldn't accept a simple Warrior logo not depicted as a Native American

I didn't agree with that administration's decision, but I understand it. Look at us. It is 20 Fing years later and we still can't let it go. We have been the Golden Eagles for nearly my entire life and we still have alumni proudly sporting Willie Wampum as their hero, we still do war chants at basketball games, students still wear those stupid headresses and tomahawks to games. We went to a completely non-native mascot and they are still inseparable!

That being said, it was in the wrong decision IMO. I think the abrupt split may have fueled some of this clinging. Maybe if we switched to a non-native Warrior people would have been more willing to let go of the past. Maybe we could have had positive, educational moments about race relations and been able to teach our students and alumni why Willie Wampum was wrong. Maybe we could have truly apologized instead of hastily sweeping the past under the rug.

In the end, I think it all comes down to Willie Wampum. You don't have him, and I think the administration doesn't feel the need to make the switch. Having that racist mascot attached to our school...we really, and please forgive the possible classless metaphor...went off the reservation with that one.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Chicos,

I think you should relook at that survey data. You keep talking about serving the majority of Native Americans, but I don't think your survey proves what you think it does. The survey (this particular one) says 35% are against the mascot. This language is clear, these native americans are insulted and want it changed. 65% of Native Americans are ok with it. This language is not clear. Does ok with it really mean support it? Does it mean that they would be against it if it changed? Or does it mean they just don't care?

What if you broke down that 65% and you found out that a majority of that 65% truly didn't care one way or the other. It wouldn't affect their lives. Only a small majority really want to keep it.

I don't know if this is the case or not. I suspect it is. I think the numbers are probably something like 35% want it to change, 60% don't care, and 5% want it to stay.

Again, I don't if that is true or not, but if it was, would that change your mind?

Oh, and don't forget that bit I said earlier about those without privilege often being unwilling to speak out against those in privilege. Makes survey data on these issues terribly unreliable