Washington Redskins change their name

[keefe]

We are working with some Native organizations to pilot some technologies in reservation clinics. I have noticed that the national organizations we are synching with as well as individual tribes all refer to themselves as Indians.

I asked a senior Indian official in DC about the Native versus Indian nomenclature and he said that the vast majority of Indians involved in policy setting at the national level don't like the term 'native.'  I asked about the Redskins issue and he made this comment: The Redskins branding is offensive as hell but the fact that Indians have the shortest life expectancy on this continent is an issue far more deserving of his considerable talent.  

[MU82]

MU82, I find that example to be so ridiculous that it is laughable, but to each their own.


It's similar to the ridiculous example from the Chicago Sun Times a few weeks ago in which he was widely lampooned for it by using the dropped hat example.  The idea that you would say "hey Redskin, you dropped your hat".  Stupid.  You wouldn't say hey Irish guy, you dropped your hat either....or hey Down syndrome kid you dropped your hat.    You would say, "sir, you dropped your hat".

If you think people using the name are hypocrites, I'd ask you stop using 100's of names that someone somewhere is outraged by....but we all know that isn't going to happen either.  I'd ask that since some of the same Native Americans asking for the name to no longer be used also want the Blackhawks removed, then you're just being hypocritical if you support the Blackhawks....somewhere, someone is outraged.

And please, someone change the title of this thread before the smartest of the smart have their heads explode.

My example wasn't "Hey, Redskin, you dropped your hat."

My example was two mature, intelligent people having a discussion about Native Americans, language and imagery.

You're sitting across the table from a Native American and you have a choice. You can refer to his/her people as Native Americans or you can refer to his/her people as redskins - a word you not only believe is OK to use but one you think most Native Americans associate with tradition, strength and courage, one you think most Native Americans like being used as a sports team nickname or mascot.

[Lennys Tap]

If you think people using the name are hypocrites, I'd ask you stop using 100's of names that someone somewhere is outraged by....but we all know that isn't going to happen either.  I'd ask that since some of the same Native Americans asking for the name to no longer be used also want the Blackhawks removed, then you're just being hypocritical if you support the Blackhawks....somewhere, someone is outraged.

I don't care about anyone else's outrage.

I am opposed to the use of redskin because it is a racial slur. Not because some people think it's a racial slur or some people don't think it is. BECAUSE IT IS. You can look it up.

I am not opposed to the use of Chippewa, Blackhawk or Warrior because they are not racial slurs. You can look that up also.

Anyone who claims that there is an ounce of hypocrisy in this stance is hopeless.

[MU82]

I don't care about anyone else's outrage.

I am opposed to the use of redskin because it is a racial slur. Not because some people think it's a racial slur or some people don't think it is. BECAUSE IT IS. You can look it up.

I am not opposed to the use of Chippewa, Blackhawk or Warrior because they are not racial slurs. You can look that up also.

Anyone who claims that there is an ounce of hypocrisy in this stance is hopeless.

Exactly.

Dictionary.com:

noun, Slang: Often Disparaging and Offensive.
1. a North American Indian.

British Dictionary:

noun
1. an old-fashioned informal name, now considered taboo, for a Native American.

Merriam-Webster online:

usually offensive: american indian

Oxford:

NOUN

DATED or OFFENSIVE
An American Indian.

Cambridge Dictionaries Online:

noun / offensive       
› old-fashioned for a Native American

The Free Dictionary:

n. Offensive Slang. Used as a disparaging term for a Native American.


MacMillan Dictionary:

NOUN [COUNTABLE] OFFENSIVE an old word meaning a "Native American"

SHALL I EFFEN GO ON? I GUESS NONE OF THESE EFFEN DICTIONARIES PASSED THE "POLL OF RACISTS" TEST.

[Coleman]

We are working with some Native organizations to pilot some technologies in reservation clinics. I have noticed that the national organizations we are synching with as well as individual tribes all refer to themselves as Indians.

I asked a senior Indian official in DC about the Native versus Indian nomenclature and he said that the vast majority of Indians involved in policy setting at the national level don't like the term 'native.'  I asked about the Redskins issue and he made this comment: The Redskins branding is offensive as hell but the fact that Indians have the shortest life expectancy on this continent is an issue far more deserving of his considerable talent.  

I suppose I can agree with him that there are perhaps more pressing issues, but that doesn't mean the Redskins nickname is worth defending, as Chico does.

As to Indian vs. Native, people should be given the right to name themselves. If they prefer "Indian" to "Native," fine. It is a term rooted in historical inaccuracy, but I don't think it is offensive, just inaccurate. And I do think it should generally be "American Indian," so as to avoid confusion with Indian nationals or Indian-Americans (Asian Indians).

[ChicosBailBonds]

I suppose I can agree with him that there are perhaps more pressing issues, but that doesn't mean the Redskins nickname is worth defending, as Chico many Native Americans do...Chico has been gracious enough to provide videos, quotes, letters, etc of hundreds of such examples.

I fixed it for you

[Coleman]

I fixed it for you

And Keefe just cited an example of an American-Indian community leader who thinks its horribly offensive. So what's your point?

[ChicosBailBonds]

My example wasn't "Hey, Redskin, you dropped your hat."

My example was two mature, intelligent people having a discussion about Native Americans, language and imagery.

You're sitting across the table from a Native American and you have a choice. You can refer to his/her people as Native Americans or you can refer to his/her people as redskins - a word you not only believe is OK to use but one you think most Native Americans associate with tradition, strength and courage, one you think most Native Americans like being used as a sports team nickname or mascot.

Understood, the dropping hat example was another bed wetting example from the Chicago Sun Times, and it was ridiculous from the word go.

I don't find yours any more compelling because it's not an example that exists in the real world.  But, for giggles, I would say this.   Sir, I'm curious why in a poll of Native Americans why your people are ok with Redskins as a nickname?  I'm also curious if you are ok if I were to attend a football game of several Native American schools with Redskins as the nickname, would you be offended if I said "GO REDSKINS!"?  If not, then am I ok to cheer for the Washington Redskins?

[MU82]

Understood, the dropping hat example was another bed wetting example from the Chicago Sun Times, and it was ridiculous from the word go.

I don't find yours any more compelling because it's not an example that exists in the real world.  But, for giggles, I would say this.   Sir, I'm curious why in a poll of Native Americans why your people are ok with Redskins as a nickname?  I'm also curious if you are ok if I were to attend a football game of several Native American schools with Redskins as the nickname, would you be offended if I said "GO REDSKINS!"?  If not, then am I ok to cheer for the Washington Redskins?

I would think you would say, "Sir, I'm curious why in a poll of redskins such as yourself, why your people are OK with Redskins as a nickname."

I'm sure you wouldn't feel even the least bit self-conscious about saying it that way because, you know, there's a 71% chance that the Native American sitting across from you actually prefers being called a redskin.

[keefe]

I suppose I can agree with him that there are perhaps more pressing issues, but that doesn't mean the Redskins nickname is worth defending, as Chico does.

As to Indian vs. Native, people should be given the right to name themselves. If they prefer "Indian" to "Native," fine. It is a term rooted in historical inaccuracy, but I don't think it is offensive, just inaccurate. And I do think it should generally be "American Indian," so as to avoid confusion with Indian nationals or Indian-Americans (Asian Indians).

My colleague is a Rosebud Sioux. He said everyone he knows would rather their tribe be used. He rarely says Indian and never says Native; he refers to the various nations by their tribal identity and uses 'nations' in the plural. Each tribe has a defined identity with an established culture featuring unique languages and traditions. His question is why do people feel it is acceptable to homogenize them and ignore their sui generis identity? If Italians and Germans are differentiated then so too should Sioux and Chippewa.

[brandx]

My colleague is a Rosebud Sioux. He said everyone he knows would rather their tribe be used. He rarely says Indian and never says Native; he refers to the various nations by their tribal identity and uses 'nations' in the plural. Each tribe has a defined identity with an established culture featuring unique languages and traditions. His question is why do people feel it is acceptable to homogenize them and ignore their sui generis identity? If Italians and Germans are differentiated then so too should Sioux and Chippewa.

Are you telling me that all Indians don't look alike?

[keefe]

Are you telling me that all Indians don't look alike?

No, that's Asians, man

[SaintPaulWarrior]

I have read part of this thread but not all.....until Notre Dame changes their racist FIGHTING IRISH nickname I don't care.  I am from Ireland, went to Marquette and I am very offended by the fighting midget leprechaun as a mascot.  If you disagree you are an idiot.

[ChicosBailBonds]

And Keefe just cited an example of an American-Indian community leader who thinks its horribly offensive. So what's your point?

My point is that someone signaled me out as a non Native American that is fine with the nickname.  I pointed out there are many Native Americans that are fine with it, just as there are some that are not.  Relevancy

[Coleman]

My colleague is a Rosebud Sioux. He said everyone he knows would rather their tribe be used. He rarely says Indian and never says Native; he refers to the various nations by their tribal identity and uses 'nations' in the plural. Each tribe has a defined identity with an established culture featuring unique languages and traditions. His question is why do people feel it is acceptable to homogenize them and ignore their sui generis identity? If Italians and Germans are differentiated then so too should Sioux and Chippewa.

I agree wholeheartedly!

[brandx]

No, that's Asians, man

Sorry, man. I get Asians and Indians mixed up all the time.

[keefe]

Sorry, man. I get Asians and Indians mixed up all the time.

I think Indians are Japanese who just got more sun

[Coleman]

This thread reminded me of my favorite movie scene of all time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNGkHK8Umew

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This thread reminded me of my favorite movie scene of all time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNGkHK8Umew

Bleuteaux, you're out of your element 

Fantastic scene.

[ChicosBailBonds]

MU82, when I'm sitting across the table, am I talking this young Native American?


https://www.youtube.com/v/LT2b5kXFv-4#t=37


Am I sitting across from this Native American, instead?

https://www.youtube.com/v/LaX6pUnI-hQ

The table is getting bigger, perhaps this Native American?

https://www.youtube.com/v/M-c-RmrUBUg

What about this Native American....across from the table?


https://www.youtube.com/v/2cleG4hLuuc


This one?

https://www.youtube.com/v/EA7wv7cmp8U


This gentleman?



etc, etc?

Different people feel differently about this, including Native Americans....the folks that are supposedly slurred yet so many find nothing wrong with the name AND even find it honorable....then again Lenny calls them dumb, ignorant, stupid, etc...so there's that.

[MU82]

MU82, when I'm sitting across the table, am I talking this young Native American?


https://www.youtube.com/v/LT2b5kXFv-4#t=37


Am I sitting across from this Native American, instead?

https://www.youtube.com/v/LaX6pUnI-hQ

The table is getting bigger, perhaps this Native American?

https://www.youtube.com/v/M-c-RmrUBUg

What about this Native American....across from the table?


https://www.youtube.com/v/2cleG4hLuuc


This one?

https://www.youtube.com/v/EA7wv7cmp8U


This gentleman?



etc, etc?

Different people feel differently about this, including Native Americans....the folks that are supposedly slurred yet so many find nothing wrong with the name AND even find it honorable....then again Lenny calls them dumb, ignorant, stupid, etc...so there's that.

I have nothing to do with what Lenny said. I didn't call anybody dumb.

So now am I supposed to go to the Internet and find a half-dozen Native Americans who are insulted by the term? If so, would that convince you?

No, because you have dug in are are convinced you are right about "redskins" not being an offensive term despite every dictionary on the planet describing it as one and despite the fact that many Native Americans ARE insulted by it.

And that's OK. I guess I've dug in, too. I like to think I've dug in on the more moral side of this issue, but you disagree and that's what makes a debate.

None of it matters, anyway. It's already been established that Snyder is going with Scalping Savages as the new nickname.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't expect you to find any Native American examples that are against the name, I have acknowledged up front that is the case.  Unfortunately, the reverse seems to happen so infrequently here and elsewhere.  Whenever someone mentions all the Native Americans that are fine with the name, folks tear down the messenger, tear down those people, do whatever they can to marginalize them.   I guess that's just part of the debate, guilty as charged on my end.  My point being that the "name changer" brigade can't wait to tell you about all those that want it changed, but God forbid if there are those that don't want it changed, or a poll(s) that say don't change it, etc, etc.  Those don't seem to count.

I've dug in on several levels...it's a private company and they can do what they want. 
The name has been around for 80 years and no team is going to name themselves after a nickname that brings dishonor to them....teams pick names of strength, pride, virtue, etc.   
Removing names like this further push Native Americans out of the mainstream, but that view has been called dumb here by intellects like Lenny when that view is actually held by some Native Americans...go figure
Let the market decide, if the name if offensive, then people can stop buying tickets, merchandise, etc.
Someone has to stick up for Native Americans and their views....the irony is that I'm speaking up for the views that some don't like, yet that is one of the exact arguments the other side is using.  It seems to me, the side I am sticking up for....their views don't count

Seeing Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe in a Redskins jacket and hat a few days leads me to believe that's where the new Redskins Stadium will be built.

[Lennys Tap]

I have nothing to do with what Lenny said. I didn't call anybody dumb.

I expect distortions of my positions from Chico. Not from you. I don't called Native Americans (or any group in general) dumb. All I've said, time after time, is that redskin is a slur by definition. It's true. Undeniably true, as you have pointed out. Some Native Americans are unaware of this, some know and oppose its use, some know and don't and still others (like Chico himself) know but still think it's great. The uninformed aren't necessarily dumb - lots of smart people are uniformed on lots of issues. That leaves the logical (not dumb), the apathetic (not dumb) and the illogical/stubborn/reactionaries (not dumb). Flying the flag of bigotry while professing love for the victim (Chico's position) isn't, by definition, dumb, but I certainly think it's wrong.   

[MU82]

I expect distortions of my positions from Chico. Not from you. I don't called Native Americans (or any group in general) dumb. All I've said, time after time, is that redskin is a slur by definition. It's true. Undeniably true, as you have pointed out. Some Native Americans are unaware of this, some know and oppose its use, some know and don't and still others (like Chico himself) know but still think it's great. The uninformed aren't necessarily dumb - lots of smart people are uniformed on lots of issues. That leaves the logical (not dumb), the apathetic (not dumb) and the illogical/stubborn/reactionaries (not dumb). Flying the flag of bigotry while professing love for the victim (Chico's position) isn't, by definition, dumb, but I certainly think it's wrong.   

My apologies. Seriously.

[MU82]

I don't expect you to find any Native American examples that are against the name, I have acknowledged up front that is the case.  Unfortunately, the reverse seems to happen so infrequently here and elsewhere.  Whenever someone mentions all the Native Americans that are fine with the name, folks tear down the messenger, tear down those people, do whatever they can to marginalize them.   I guess that's just part of the debate, guilty as charged on my end.  My point being that the "name changer" brigade can't wait to tell you about all those that want it changed, but God forbid if there are those that don't want it changed, or a poll(s) that say don't change it, etc, etc.  Those don't seem to count.

I've dug in on several levels...it's a private company and they can do what they want. 
The name has been around for 80 years and no team is going to name themselves after a nickname that brings dishonor to them....teams pick names of strength, pride, virtue, etc.   
Removing names like this further push Native Americans out of the mainstream, but that view has been called dumb here by intellects like Lenny when that view is actually held by some Native Americans...go figure
Let the market decide, if the name if offensive, then people can stop buying tickets, merchandise, etc.
Someone has to stick up for Native Americans and their views....the irony is that I'm speaking up for the views that some don't like, yet that is one of the exact arguments the other side is using.  It seems to me, the side I am sticking up for....their views don't count

Seeing Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe in a Redskins jacket and hat a few days leads me to believe that's where the new Redskins Stadium will be built.

You have stated your points, and I have stated mine. I guess I feel that if even 25% or 30% of Native Americans are insulted by the name, it should be enough - but you disagree. Neither of us will change, so there's no point going on.

If you choose to get the last word - as you almost always choose to do - I won't be responding any more to this thread. In fact, I won't even be clicking on it again, so I won't know if you got the last word or not!

Have a good one. See you on another thread.