[Paint Touches] Is Marquette a top-20 program?

[Lennys Tap]

I would definitely put Michigan ahead of LSU and Oregon for football.  In terms of historical program, absolutely.  Oregon was dreadful out here for many years.  Their surge is relatively recent with a few sprinklings of good teams here and there over the years over the decades.

In your longer post you claim that Michigan ran the "innovative" Rich Rodriguez out of town because "he wasn't a Michigan man". I would submit that a 15-22 overall, 6-18 Big Ten record coupled with multiple violations got him  (quite justifiably) fired. The "Michigan man" angle was at most a very small part of the problem with Rodriguez.

[PaintTouches]

Andrei -- Is it not customary to cite your source or at least give a shout out?

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=32127.0

You're welcome, by the way.  Let me know if you need any uncredited research done.

Ha, I looked everywhere on Scoop for that thread and couldn't find it so I ended up having to use the Googles myself. But I can definitely add the ones I missed and provide a hat tip. Thanks Benny.

[MUHoopsFan2]

Yes they are....plain and simple.

I say they are a top 10 when you consider who they send to the Pro's and how they develop NBA Pro players and prospects alone and great young men.

MU has really established an MU Basketball Brand and style of play all their own more than or as well any team in college basketball and on par with Duke, MSU, Kentucky Kansas and them really.

And that is not the homer in me talking either. Since Wade, or Post Wade they have been on fire...You can imagine how good they would be if they did land a Demarcus Cousins type big or Diamond Stone.

They have done it with Juco's and tweeners and switchables and all heart. With or without a particular coach the Vision, Mission, Culture and Character they build is second to none.  

Recruiting guys who are long, hard working, talented, and who by and grind and stay all 4 years and take it to you on both ends.

At the draft combines during interviews and on TV you hear comments or how hard they work and how tough the MU player is...that is a rep my friends.

The Big Ten has it but they do not send as many guys to the next level WHO HAVE AN IMPACT on their teams like MU has.

[MUHoopsFan2]

This writer is delusional.

Yes they are a top 20 team. It is not debatable.

In fact I would argue they are are TOP TEN Program...men's and women's if you fact in all of their athletic teams.

But I will just stick to Basketball if you want.

[KenoshaWarrior]

In your longer post you claim that Michigan ran the "innovative" Rich Rodriguez out of town because "he wasn't a Michigan man". I would submit that a 15-22 overall, 6-18 Big Ten record coupled with multiple violations got him  (quite justifiably) fired. The "Michigan man" angle was at most a very small part of the problem with Rodriguez.

He was hamstrung by administration and was not allowed to get his type of players.  Nowadays the new coach is allowed to recruit less than stellar students and has the backing of administration and their super weird, super stodgy alumni base

[brewcity77]

I think the author of the the top 20 program was doing it looking forward more than what has happen historically. Basically where the programs are today and whether they are up trending or downtrending Over the next ten years I think it is a valid argument that Illinois, Michigan and even Gonzaga ( as long as Few stays) are expected to be top 20 programs. Marquette was not in the group, because while the author thinks MU is top 20 with Buzz, he does not think they are top 20 without Buzz.

The problem with that is the author is also assuming Groce, Beilein, and Few stay. Groce hasn't actually shown he is willing to turn down any big money offers yet. Beilein is 60 years old and has already said he has a retirement date in mind and his current contract expires in 3 years. And as you mention...as long as Few stays. I don't think Few will leave, but he's probably running out of chances at age 50. In addition, he's only been out of the first weekend twice in the past 12 seasons and has never been beyond the Sweet 16. Gonzaga has peaked under Few. They will likely remain a perennial top-25 team that doesn't make deep runs in the tourney, whereas Buzz is constantly taking Marquette further and further. If you're looking at the future, anyone saying Gonzaga under Few (if he stays) has a brighter future than Marquette with Buzz (if he stays) is simply ignoring the trends of the programs.

[tower912]

In your longer post you claim that Michigan ran the "innovative" Rich Rodriguez out of town because "he wasn't a Michigan man". I would submit that a 15-22 overall, 6-18 Big Ten record coupled with multiple violations got him  (quite justifiably) fired. The "Michigan man" angle was at most a very small part of the problem with Rodriguez.

Lloyd Carr didn't like RichRod.   He undercut him behind the scenes, with the players on the roster, and with prospective recruits.    RichRod was doomed to fail at Michigan from the start.    The fact that he was completely unable to coach defense while at UM may have contributed a bit, too.

[hoyasincebirth]

Well if you weren't pissed about these rankings before you will be now:

http://college-basketball.si.com/2013/09/25/college-basketballs-best-current-programs-11-15/

#15 Memphis

#14 WISCONSIN

#13 Uconn

#12 UCLA

#11 Florida

I mean WTF how is Wisconsin 14! how are they a better program than Marquette or Georgetown?!

[Aughnanure]

Well if you weren't pissed about these rankings before you will be now:

http://college-basketball.si.com/2013/09/25/college-basketballs-best-current-programs-11-15/

#15 Memphis

#14 WISCONSIN

#13 Uconn

#12 UCLA

#11 Florida

I mean WTF how is Wisconsin 14! how are they a better program than Marquette or Georgetown?!

Or UConn? Or Florida!? Jesus Christ.

Edit: Read that backwards. But still only one spot behind UConn, 2 behind UCLA?

[MuMark]

I'm sure UCONN was dropped a few spots because of Calhoun no longer being there and having a downgrade in conference affliation.

Wisconsin has earned their place although I think he has them

a few spots too high.....but that is nitpicking.

Fans get too worked up about this stuff......So he has MU at 22 instead of 18....big deal.

ps. Anybody who thinks MU should be in the top 10 needs to put down the bottle and step away from the bar.....

[brewcity77]

Again, if you are rating this partially on the future, how long will Bo be there? You can't slam Marquette because Buzz might leave and ignore coaches like Groce or Pastner who could also leave and coaches like Beilein or Bo that are likely no more than 3-4 years away from retirement.

[bilsu]

The problem with that is the author is also assuming Groce, Beilein, and Few stay. Groce hasn't actually shown he is willing to turn down any big money offers yet. Beilein is 60 years old and has already said he has a retirement date in mind and his current contract expires in 3 years. And as you mention...as long as Few stays. I don't think Few will leave, but he's probably running out of chances at age 50. In addition, he's only been out of the first weekend twice in the past 12 seasons and has never been beyond the Sweet 16. Gonzaga has peaked under Few. They will likely remain a perennial top-25 team that doesn't make deep runs in the tourney, whereas Buzz is constantly taking Marquette further and further. If you're looking at the future, anyone saying Gonzaga under Few (if he stays) has a brighter future than Marquette with Buzz (if he stays) is simply ignoring the trends of the programs.

I think the writer would believe MU is a better future program than Gonzaga, if Buzz stays long-term. However, he seems to believe Buzz will be gone in the next couple of years and MU will not likely hire as good of a coach. That of course is his opinion, but he is basing his rankings on the near future. Assuming Beilein retires or Groce leaves Illinois in his mind he  probably sees those coaches leaving as less of a loss for those schools than MU losing Buzz, because he probably believes those schools will attrack top notch coaches. Viewing MU as a stepping stone university is what is coloring his projection of MU being a top 20 program.

[keefe]

In your longer post you claim that Michigan ran the "innovative" Rich Rodriguez out of town because "he wasn't a Michigan man". I would submit that a 15-22 overall, 6-18 Big Ten record coupled with multiple violations got him  (quite justifiably) fired. The "Michigan man" angle was at most a very small part of the problem with Rodriguez.

The "Michigan Man" factor was negligible in this case. Even his losing record was less a determinant than the numerous violations. As a Michigan benefactor I can tell you that the vitriol directed towards Rich Rod from the contributing alumni base was mostly due to his inability to run a compliant program. At Michigan, reputation and brand far outweigh anything else. Michigan has an impeccable record of accomplishment in both the classroom and the athletic field. Rodriguez' personal behavior was at times bizarre and his continuing problems with the NCAA made his termination necessary. The fact that he wasn't winning was a secondary consideration.

[keefe]

Lloyd Carr didn't like RichRod.   He undercut him behind the scenes, with the players on the roster, and with prospective recruits.    RichRod was doomed to fail at Michigan from the start.    The fact that he was completely unable to coach defense while at UM may have contributed a bit, too.

Lloyd Carr was involved in the hire so your comment isn't quite accurate. Carr ran a very tight ship and played within the rules. Carr was an advocate for change only after Rodriguez continued to do stupid little things that brought NCAA scrutiny and began to cast the Michigan football program in a negative light. But to suggest Lloyd Carr undermined the Michigan program is beyond ridiculous. 

[tower912]

I didn't.   I said that Lloyd Carr undermined RichRod.   You and I must not be talking to the same Wolverine insiders. 

[keefe]

I didn't.   I said that Lloyd Carr undermined RichRod.   You and I must not be talking to the same Wolverine insiders. 

As a University of Michigan Alumnus and Benefactor I can confirm that David Brandon told the contributing alumni base at a fund raising luncheon that Rodriguez' downfall was entirely due to two factors: Compliance problems with the regulatory authorities and the abysmal, degrading treatment of players.

When All-American Justin Boren transferred from Michigan to Ohio people knew there were serious problems. The fact that he never beat Ohio or MSU made it easier, perhaps, but Brandon never mentioned on-field performance.

Lloyd Carr is a decent, honorable man who bleeds Maize and Blue. To suggest that Lloyd Carr actively subverted Rodriguez is absurd. Rodriguez self-immolated for reasons of integrity, character, and personal rectitude. His behavior forced UofM to dismiss him for cause. I have no idea who your inside Wolverine source is but I doubt he knows more about the matter than David Brandon.   

[brewcity77]

I think the writer would believe MU is a better future program than Gonzaga, if Buzz stays long-term. However, he seems to believe Buzz will be gone in the next couple of years and MU will not likely hire as good of a coach. That of course is his opinion, but he is basing his rankings on the near future. Assuming Beilein retires or Groce leaves Illinois in his mind he  probably sees those coaches leaving as less of a loss for those schools than MU losing Buzz, because he probably believes those schools will attrack top notch coaches. Viewing MU as a stepping stone university is what is coloring his projection of MU being a top 20 program.

I get why he feels that way, but have Illinois and Michigan had a better track record of coaches over the past 15 years? Illinois was Self's stepping stone to Kansas and once his players were gone they never had any significant success under Weber. Michigan has been awful with the exception of the past couple years.

I understand his mindset. I am just saying that if you are going to knock Marquette out of the top-20 for the reasons he stated, his argument is horribly, horribly flawed. Based on the criteria given, I honestly believe there is no way anyone could argue Illinois, Michigan, or Gonzaga ahead of Marquette. If you are going to make assumptions about MU, you have to be willing to make the same assumptions about the other programs.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The history of HS athletes only goes back to 2003.  No body is getting all goo-goo eyed over Bo Schembekler.  You, and maybe michigan fans are the only ones that would put Michigan over Oregon or LSU as who is currently a better program.   LSU has one 2 NCAA titles in the past ten year.  Michigan has zero.  LSU has been consistently ranked in the top 10.  Michigan has not. 

Oregon is the cool school kids want to go to.   Michigan was the cool school in 1993

Oregon is innovative and does not miss a beat with new head coaches.  Michigan had an innovative coach but the administration and backers hated him because he was not a "Michigan Man" (Whatever the hell that means) and ran him out of town.

With all due respect, you are moving the goal posts.  You originally said "Michigan is the most winning team in football, but to put them ahead of Alabama, LSU, and Oregon as football programs is crazy".  Now you are saying better program and using today as the criteria.  That's a little different.

I get where you are coming from, but then that all comes down to how far back do you go.  Michigan is still getting 110,000 fans per game, has actually won a national title in the last 15 years (Oregon never has), etc.   Oregon is definitely cool, no doubt about it, but I guess you need to decide the parameters and guidelines. 

When you say it is crazy to put Michigan ahead of Oregon, it depends on what you are using as your baseline.  Last 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, overall?  It's hard to simply dismiss a team with more wins than any other, 100K+ attendance, national titles, conference titles (did you know Oregon has won 3 in the last 10 years...not exactly dominant), overall history, etc.  Oregon is fantastic, but I need a little bigger sample size.  Today, Oregon better, no question.  Overall, not close.  Last few decades, pretty even.

[bilsu]

I get why he feels that way, but have Illinois and Michigan had a better track record of coaches over the past 15 years? Illinois was Self's stepping stone to Kansas and once his players were gone they never had any significant success under Weber. Michigan has been awful with the exception of the past couple years.

I understand his mindset. I am just saying that if you are going to knock Marquette out of the top-20 for the reasons he stated, his argument is horribly, horribly flawed. Based on the criteria given, I honestly believe there is no way anyone could argue Illinois, Michigan, or Gonzaga ahead of Marquette. If you are going to make assumptions about MU, you have to be willing to make the same assumptions about the other programs.

I think it also reflects his opinion of conferences. I.E. a Big 10 job is more desirable than a Big East job. It may or may not be true, but he did show a negative attitude towards the new Big East.

[ChicosBailBonds]

In your longer post you claim that Michigan ran the "innovative" Rich Rodriguez out of town because "he wasn't a Michigan man". I would submit that a 15-22 overall, 6-18 Big Ten record coupled with multiple violations got him  (quite justifiably) fired. The "Michigan man" angle was at most a very small part of the problem with Rodriguez.

I think you may have me confused with another poster.     Don't believe I said any of this.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think it also reflects his opinion of conferences. I.E. a Big 10 job is more desirable than a Big East job. It may or may not be true, but he did show a negative attitude towards the new Big East.

Understandable.  Until the new Big East can prove it belongs year in and year out (hopefully the case), that will be a default understanding that many writers will likely have...most fans as well.

[keefe]

When you say it is crazy to put Michigan ahead of Oregon, it depends on what you are using as your baseline.  Last 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, overall?  It's hard to simply dismiss a team with more wins than any other, 100K+ attendance, national titles, conference titles (did you know Oregon has won 3 in the last 10 years...not exactly dominant), overall history, etc.  Oregon is fantastic, but I need a little bigger sample size.  Today, Oregon better, no question.  Overall, not close.  Last few decades, pretty even.

Well, the Ducks have Blue beat in one crucial category:

[ChicosBailBonds]

Keefe, one of the ladies at work was a Duck cheerleader in the late 1980's.  Lovely.

The ducklings have always been very attractive, especially since over the years most of them have been from Calif.

[Eldon]

Well, the Ducks have Blue beat in one crucial category:

Posts like these are why it is so great to have Keefe back on the board.

[The Lens]

In the last 25 years we've hired 4 coaches, 3 have taken us to at least the Sweet 16 - I don't get why they worry so about our coach leaving.

And the 4th coach won the post-game bar scene like no other.

Hiring coaches is our thing.