[Paint Touches] Is Marquette a top-20 program?

[Eldon]

Yo Dre (in my best Easy-E voice), great article.  Way to rep

[KenoshaWarrior]

disagree;  Memphis has huge town support, have been good for over 30 years and has more recent big time success.   
Illinois has no reason to be ahead of us.

[bilsu]

disagree;  Memphis has huge town support, have been good for over 30 years and has more recent big time success.   
Illinois has no reason to be ahead of us.

Illinois had 1690 wins vs MU's 1520 wins.

[Windyplayer]

Illinois had 1690 wins vs MU's 1520 wins.

That means absolutely nothing. See list below indicating why...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_teams_with_the_most_victories_in_NCAA_Division_I_men's_college_basketball

[hoyasincebirth]

IF you take all the modern multiple tournament winners:
UCLA   11   
Kentucky   8   
Indiana   5   
North Carolina   5   
Duke   4   
Connecticut   3   1
Kansas   3   
Louisville   3   
Florida   2   
Michigan State   2   
North Carolina State   2   
(11 teams)
which means throwing out Oklahoma A&M, Cincy, and USF because they're not "modern" multiple winners,
Then add the "modern" single winners:
Syracuse
Maryland
Arizona
Arkansas
michigan
Villanova
NC State
Michigan State
Marquette
excluding UNLV, of course, because they "might" have cheated,
THEN you have the real TOP 20.
It's based on results... not based on if your coach might leave next year!

You included Michigan St twice.
You left out Georgetown and our 1984 championship

These are the teams to win Championships going backwards from last year until we reach 20 teams:
Louisville
Kentucky
Uconn
Duke
UNC
Kansas
Florida
Syracuse
Maryland
Michigan St
Arizona
UCLA
Arkansas
UNLV
Michigan
Indiana
Villanova
Georgetown
NC St
Marquette

[hoyasincebirth]

Ok just found 20-16
http://college-basketball.si.com/2013/09/24/college-basketballs-20-best-current-programs-16-20/

20. Gonzaga
19. Illinois
18. Michigan
17. Georgetown
16. Texas

Ok this list is a joke.

He really thinks the move to fox is a bad thing. And really doesn't think much of the Big East. I can't imagine Villanova being higher than Georgetown which would mean he doesn't even think they're in the top 35, but that seems even crazier so he must have Villanova higher than Georgetown.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Ok just found 20-16
http://college-basketball.si.com/2013/09/24/college-basketballs-20-best-current-programs-16-20/

20. Gonzaga
19. Illinois
18. Michigan
17. Georgetown
16. Texas

Ok this list is a joke.

He really thinks the move to fox is a bad thing. And really doesn't think much of the Big East. I can't imagine Villanova being higher than Georgetown which would mean he doesn't even think they're in the top 35, but that seems even crazier so he must have Villanova higher than Georgetown.

I can't imagine anyone from the New Big East being ahead of Georgetown. Which means that he thinks there is only 1 top 20 program in our conference....and only two others deserve honorable mentions. I suppose I shouldn't be this surprised

[bilsu]

That means absolutely nothing. See list below indicating why...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_teams_with_the_most_victories_in_NCAA_Division_I_men's_college_basketball

Illinois .650 winning percentage all-time vs MU's .622
Everything is arguable and I am not saying that Illinois should be ranked ahead of MU, but to say there is no reason that Illinois should be is a false statement.

[MerrittsMustache]

Illinois .650 winning percentage all-time vs MU's .622
Everything is arguable and I am not saying that Illinois should be ranked ahead of MU, but to say there is no reason that Illinois should be is a false statement.

Gonzaga making the top 20 is a joke. They beat up on a bunch of nobodies in the conference and are lauded for it...and then they crash and burn in the NCAA Tournament.

[Galway Eagle]

Glockner is a known MU hater.  He'll always deny it but it's true. 

[MuMark]

Absolutely false.....

Glockner is a known MU hater.  He'll always deny it but it's true. 

[Galway Eagle]

Absolutely false.....

Then show me his support.  Because I've been on more than one twitter argument with him for saying negative things about MU. 

[KenoshaWarrior]

Illinois .650 winning percentage all-time vs MU's .622
Everything is arguable and I am not saying that Illinois should be ranked ahead of MU, but to say there is no reason that Illinois should be is a false statement.

Michigan is the most winning team in football, but to put them ahead of Alabama, LSU, and Oregon as football programs is crazy

[MUfan12]

Then show me his support.  Because I've been on more than one twitter argument with him for saying negative things about MU. 

You're way off. He's been great with MU fans on there. He dubbed us "Team Bubble Watch" after his SI column in 2011, since that team was entertaining, and always played close games. He's been by far the most MU friendly of the national college hoops writers.

Here's a few links off of a quick search-

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_glockner/03/01/marquette.bubble/index.html

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_glockner/08/30/teams.luck/

http://painttouches.com/2013/03/23/twitter-reactions-to-marquettes-heart-attack-inducing-win-over-butler/picture-40-6/

http://painttouches.com/2013/03/09/twitter-reactions-to-marquettes-69-67-victory-over-st-johns/picture-45/

[Galway Eagle]

Why is everybody head over heels for team bubble watch label? I take it as insulting that he still calls us that.  I mean the 09-10 and 10-11 years ok but last year lock, year before lock, 08-09 lock, 07-08 lock like why does two years permanently get us that? And why does that mean that it's suddenly ok because it was appropriate for two years. 

[brewcity77]

Why is everybody head over heels for team bubble watch label? I take it as insulting that he still calls us that.  I mean the 09-10 and 10-11 years ok but last year lock, year before lock, 08-09 lock, 07-08 lock like why does two years permanently get us that? And why does that mean that it's suddenly ok because it was appropriate for two years. 

Nicknames stick. Simple as that. Certainly not an insult.

Also...as bad as seeing Gonzaga and Illinois on this list is, seeing Michigan on there is arguably worse. They are here because of ONE season. Yes, they went to the final this past year, but before that had earned 3 NCAA bids in 14 years without a single trip beyond the first weekend since 1994. Honestly, none of the first five teams can compete with the success Marquette has had over the past 5 years. Maybe Michigan has a brighter future, but no other school here can really claim they are trending upwards more so than MU. The only argument for Texas is if they steal our coach.

We outspend all these programs. Our facilities are on par with or better than most of them. Our on-court success is better than all of them save Michigan's one run, and one or two years does not a program make (otherwise Butler should be in the top-10). And I'd take our coach over any of theirs.

[Lennys Tap]

Why is everybody head over heels for team bubble watch label? I take it as insulting that he still calls us that.  I mean the 09-10 and 10-11 years ok but last year lock, year before lock, 08-09 lock, 07-08 lock like why does two years permanently get us that? And why does that mean that it's suddenly ok because it was appropriate for two years. 

In Buzz's 5 years our seeds have been: 6, 6, 11, 3 and 3. I think in Crean's last 3 three years we were a 7, 8 and a 6. That's 9 straight years in the tournament and only one year as the lower seed in game one. I don't "team bubble watch" is insulting but it's inaccurate.

[brewcity77]

In Buzz's 5 years our seeds have been: 6, 6, 11, 3 and 3. I think in Crean's last 3 three years we were a 7, 8 and a 6. That's 9 straight years in the tournament and only one year as the lower seed in game one. I don't "team bubble watch" is insulting but it's inaccurate.

It isn't because of the circumstances. In Buzz's second year, we were the epitome of a bubble team. On January 24, we were 2-5 in conference play with 4/5 losses to top-10 teams (missing resume-builder chances) and losing those 5 by a combined 11 points. We were squarely on the bubble on February 18 when we lost to Pitt before reeling off three straight overtime road wins. General consensus was that we didn't come off the bubble until March 2 when we beat Louisville, though we made it interesting by losing to Notre Dame in the season finale. Most bracketologists had us in the field, but the 6-seed shocked most everyone. As I recall, most expected us to be in the 9-11 range.

The year after that, we lost all 4 of our marquee non-con match-ups and were always within 2 games of being .500 in conference before finishing 9-9. If we don't beat Providence and WVU in the Big East Tournament, we probably would have missed the field and Buzz's first Sweet 16 run never would have happened, thanks to 14 losses coming into Selection Sunday.

I believe Glockner started doing his "Bubble Watch" feature in 2009, so the first two years he did it we were the poster children for the weekly feature on SI.com. The past two years we've overachieved our TBW nickname, but hopefully anyone who doesn't understand where it came from or why it was completely apt (and as I said, nicknames stick) now has a better sense of why we are, and for Glockner probably almost always will be, Team Bubble Watch.

[Aughnanure]

Nicknames stick. Simple as that. Certainly not an insult.

Also...as bad as seeing Gonzaga and Illinois on this list is, seeing Michigan on there is arguably worse. They are here because of ONE season. Yes, they went to the final this past year, but before that had earned 3 NCAA bids in 14 years without a single trip beyond the first weekend since 1994. Honestly, none of the first five teams can compete with the success Marquette has had over the past 5 years. Maybe Michigan has a brighter future, but no other school here can really claim they are trending upwards more so than MU. The only argument for Texas is if they steal our coach.

We outspend all these programs. Our facilities are on par with or better than most of them. Our on-court success is better than all of them save Michigan's one run, and one or two years does not a program make (otherwise Butler should be in the top-10). And I'd take our coach over any of theirs.

Thank you. I was thinking I was the only one perplexed as to why Michigan gets automatically lumped in with elite programs.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Michigan is the most winning team in football, but to put them ahead of Alabama, LSU, and Oregon as football programs is crazy

I would definitely put Michigan ahead of LSU and Oregon for football.  In terms of historical program, absolutely.  Oregon was dreadful out here for many years.  Their surge is relatively recent with a few sprinklings of good teams here and there over the years over the decades.

[Windyplayer]

Illinois .650 winning percentage all-time vs MU's .622
Everything is arguable and I am not saying that Illinois should be ranked ahead of MU, but to say there is no reason that Illinois should be is a false statement.

I never said there are no arguable reasons as to why Illinois should be ranked ahead of MU--only that winning percentage of a program is no reason to rank another team ahead of another.

[bilsu]

I think the author of the the top 20 program was doing it looking forward more than what has happen historically. Basically where the programs are today and whether they are up trending or downtrending Over the next ten years I think it is a valid argument that Illinois, Michigan and even Gonzaga ( as long as Few stays) are expected to be top 20 programs. Marquette was not in the group, because while the author thinks MU is top 20 with Buzz, he does not think they are top 20 without Buzz.

[KenoshaWarrior]

I would definitely put Michigan ahead of LSU and Oregon for football.  In terms of historical program, absolutely.  Oregon was dreadful out here for many years.  Their surge is relatively recent with a few sprinklings of good teams here and there over the years over the decades.

The history of HS athletes only goes back to 2003.  No body is getting all goo-goo eyed over Bo Schembekler.  You, and maybe michigan fans are the only ones that would put Michigan over Oregon or LSU as who is currently a better program.   LSU has one 2 NCAA titles in the past ten year.  Michigan has zero.  LSU has been consistently ranked in the top 10.  Michigan has not.  

Oregon is the cool school kids want to go to.   Michigan was the cool school in 1993

Oregon is innovative and does not miss a beat with new head coaches.  Michigan had an innovative coach but the administration and backers hated him because he was not a "Michigan Man" (Whatever the hell that means) and ran him out of town.

[MU82]

Which at this point is ridiculous. I'm not saying he stays, but he's turned down job after job for years. I know...none of those jobs were Texas, but they were Oklahoma, Oregon, Arkansas, and Texas A&M, all significantly larger schools with more money than Marquette has. And by the same token, Texas isn't Indiana, Duke, Kansas, or UNC.

Regardless, this program survived the loss of Crean and could survive the loss of Buzz. The budget, facilities, and proven track record of success over 2 coaches shows this program can succeed at a high level. With Buzz, we are definitely top-20, especially when you factor in future potential. Even without him, I still think you can argue us ahead of Maryland, Illinois, Gonzaga, and the other schools fighting for those last spots.

I agree, brew.

It's like trying to guess what rules Congress might change if you are investing for 20 years in the future.

We can only project the future based upon what we know. Saying Marquette ranks beneath Program X because of what Buzz might do is silly.

[Benny B]

Andrei -- Is it not customary to cite your source or at least give a shout out?

Buzz to (insert school here) has been a talking point since 2010 and a legitimate concern since 2011. Before Texas there was Buzz to Oklahoma, Texas Tech, Arkansas, Texas A&M, Illinois, SMU, UCLA, USC and even Minnesota.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=32127.0

You're welcome, by the way.  Let me know if you need any uncredited research done.