Paul White to Georgetown

[Lennys Tap]

Ners "we all know how you feel Willie". Translation: You have no clue. "Basically just demonstrated"--one can surely figure out that means nothing except in your eyes. And finally "relatively unintelligent"--If the shoe fits, wear it, Ners.

You are fond of making unambiguous, declarative statements (It is unacceptable for Buzz to not sign a 4 or 5 star  big). No wiggle room, unacceptable, as in intolerable. To those who can read and comprehend the English language such a statement implies consequences if Buzz is unsuccessful. What consequences? When pressed, you pivot. No consequences for unacceptable performance. Then you follow up with some weak "nobody knows how I feel" BS. If that's true it's because you don't communicate it very well.

[BrewCity83]

Not necessarily applicable but in my job I only hire employees who fit with the culture of my department. I have turned down 5 star resumes and interviews in favor of 2 stars who will clearly buy into what my department is trying to do. Now what I do, and what Buzz does is very different. There is an argument to be made for the value of pure talent. But personally I prefer "fit" over talent.

TAMU Eagle = Bo Ryan?

[The Equalizer]

I am only saying "I guess" because I am not 100% certain.  However my certainty that brew is correct exceeds 95%. 

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, there are concerns about *how* White plays.  Now contrast that with what has been described about Harris and his style of play, and you can see how Buzz might be more interested.

And I'm about 95% certain Pakuni is correct--that Buzz thought the certainty of landing Harris outweighed risking a delay to wait for White--especially when Arizona was still in the mix.
 
All I can add is that its funny how all those concerns about White and superiority of Harris suddenly materialized in the June 23-27 timeframe--when Harris' visit & commitment first appeared on the board.

You'd think SOMEONE here would have been hyping Harris going back to Midnight Madness--he and White both came to MU that night.  Nope.  All season, White was the obvious priority, second only to Looney.  If Harris was mentioned, it was an afterthought to Sean O'Mara. 

If Harris were sjuch a priority, someone in the Chicago area would have gone to his games and followed him throughout the season, given that he was supposedly our first choice recruit. 

And you'd also think SOMEONE here would have been raising concerns about White BEFORE he committed.   

Yet there was no hype for Harris.  No concerns cited about White. 

Until the day we land Harris over White.

But I'm open to any evidence you can offer that you were aware of or preference of Harris and concerns over White prior to June 23.  Just post the links to the threads on this board or others. 

[Pakuni]

And I'm about 95% certain Pakuni is correct--that Buzz thought the certainty of landing Harris outweighed risking a delay to wait for White--especially when Arizona was still in the mix.
 
All I can add is that its funny how all those concerns about White and superiority of Harris suddenly materialized in the June 23-27 timeframe--when Harris' visit & commitment first appeared on the board.

You'd think SOMEONE here would have been hyping Harris going back to Midnight Madness--he and White both came to MU that night.  Nope.  All season, White was the obvious priority, second only to Looney.  If Harris was mentioned, it was an afterthought to Sean O'Mara. 

If Harris were sjuch a priority, someone in the Chicago area would have gone to his games and followed him throughout the season, given that he was supposedly our first choice recruit. 

And you'd also think SOMEONE here would have been raising concerns about White BEFORE he committed.   

Yet there was no hype for Harris.  No concerns cited about White. 

Until the day we land Harris over White.

But I'm open to any evidence you can offer that you were aware of or preference of Harris and concerns over White prior to June 23.  Just post the links to the threads on this board or others. 

So, are you suggesting the amount of discussion a recruit generates on MU Scoop is somehow a reflection of how Buzz and his staff evaluate a player? That the amount of "hype" generated on this message board is directly proportional to the coaching staff's interest?
Um .... er ...... hmmm.

[MuMark]

Both IWB and Mark Miller reported that Harris was being targeted ahead of White before Malek verbaled to MU....... not after.......

This is not a case of "we don't want you now that you don't want us".....MU has lost out on many players that they wanted this year and in years past.

Would they have taken White if Harris had not verbaled? I don't know but I have my doubts.....from what I hear the staff was split on him....Some liked him more then others.

We will never know for sure obviously since that decision never had to be made.


Brewcity can confirm this if he so chooses

ps None of this means that White is not a good player and is not a good get for the Hoyas....he could certainly end up having a better career then Harris....time will tell.

MU got the guy they wanted.

[GGGG]

You'd think SOMEONE here would have been hyping Harris going back to Midnight Madness--he and White both came to MU that night.  Nope.  All season, White was the obvious priority, second only to Looney.  If Harris was mentioned, it was an afterthought to Sean O'Mara.

That is absolutely NOT accurate.  Just because you don't know certain things, that doesn't mean they aren't true.

Both IWB and Mark Miller reported that Harris was being targeted ahead of White before Malek verbaled to MU....... not after.......

This is not a case of "we don't want you now that you don't want us".....MU has lost out on many players that they wanted this year and in years past.

Would they have taken White if Harris had not verbaled? I don't know but I have my doubts.....from what I hear the staff was split on him....Some liked him more then others.

We will never know for sure obviously since that decision never had to be made.

Brewcity can confirm this if he so chooses

Not Brewcity, but this is pretty much what I have heard as well...especially about the staff being split on White.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Not necessarily applicable but in my job I only hire employees who fit with the culture of my department. I have turned down 5 star resumes and interviews in favor of 2 stars who will clearly buy into what my department is trying to do. Now what I do, and what Buzz does is very different. There is an argument to be made for the value of pure talent. But personally I prefer "fit" over talent.

Good philosophy

[brewcity77]

Brewcity can confirm this if he so chooses

I heard the same from the same sources at least 6-8 weeks before Harris committed. Similarly, I heard the same about Quadri Moore a month or two ago when MU was still perceived as one of the leaders. He committed to Cincy today. There have been quite a few guys that MU rated differently than national services did.

Also, I am not at all sure the staff was ever all that high on O'Mara. They watched him but never seemed to be very serious (despite it being clear some MU fans wanted the big relatively local body). Considering his final list and where he ended up, I'd say they were right on. I have little doubt that if Marquette truly had any real interest in O'Mara over the guys they are currently pursuing, he'd be here.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU Eagle = Bo Ryan?

I have slapped men for less!

[The Equalizer]

So, are you suggesting the amount of discussion a recruit generates on MU Scoop is somehow a reflection of how Buzz and his staff evaluate a player? That the amount of "hype" generated on this message board is directly proportional to the coaching staff's interest?
Um .... er ...... hmmm.

You've been around long enough to know that recruiting moves are well documeted and commented upon here and other locations--with sources ranging from player twitter accounts, Verbal Commits, various recruiting blogs, the recuirting gurus at ESPN, Bullseye, Rivals, Sporting News, etc., recruit attendance at games, sightings at campus locations, private arcraft flight data, posts about seeing Buzz and/or his staff attending HS games and tournaments, quotes from the recruits themselves to the question "Who's recruting you . . . ", links to other schools boards, comments from friends, brothers, cousins, etc. etc. etc. etc.

But with Harris?  Virtually nothing up until the annoucement of his visit:

Here's the thread annoucing that Harris was visiting:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=32802
Where are all the excited comments from those who supposedly knew that Harris had become was Buzz's priority recruit over White?  The closest was MUMark who said Harris was "a" priority, but stops well short of saying that Harris had become "the" priority ahead of White. 

Yet now we have people coming out of the wordwork saying that they knew for quite a while that this recruiting preference shift had taken place.

Care to explain why the usually vocal MU Scoop audience kept their silence on this one?

[GGGG]

You've been around long enough to know that recruiting moves are well documeted and commented upon here and other locations--with sources ranging from player twitter accounts, Verbal Commits, various recruiting blogs, the recuirting gurus at ESPN, Bullseye, Rivals, Sporting News, etc., recruit attendance at games, sightings at campus locations, private arcraft flight data, posts about seeing Buzz and/or his staff attending HS games and tournaments, quotes from the recruits themselves to the question "Who's recruting you . . . ", links to other schools boards, comments from friends, brothers, cousins, etc. etc. etc. etc.

But with Harris?  Virtually nothing up until the annoucement of his visit:

Here's the thread annoucing that Harris was visiting:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=32802
Where are all the excited comments from those who supposedly knew that Harris had become was Buzz's priority recruit over White?  The closest was MUMark who said Harris was "a" priority, but stops well short of saying that Harris had become "the" priority ahead of White. 

Yet now we have people coming out of the wordwork saying that they knew for quite a while that this recruiting preference shift had taken place.

Care to explain why the usually vocal MU Scoop audience kept their silence on this one?

Because we received the information from a subscription service.

And because Buzz increasingly plays his cards close to his chest.

[The Equalizer]

That is absolutely NOT accurate.  Just because you don't know certain things, that doesn't mean they aren't true.

I'm just taking Pakuni's word . . .

At least six Chicago area prospects will be there tonight, according to Illinois Prep Bullseye: Paul White, Malek Harris, Prentiss Nixon, Roosevelt Smart, Tyler Jackson and Joseph Toye.

Not Brewcity, but this is pretty much what I have heard as well...especially about the staff being split on White.

Yet you didn't bother to share what you were heraring when Harris was visiting.  Instead, you said this: 

Harris visiting today.  Was at Purdue earlier in the week and will be at Northwestern tomorrow.

You obviously are going to feel a lot better if you are convinced that Harris had become our first choice as opposed to a Plan B to White.

I"m just saying that in the absence of any indication of that PRIOR to Harris' commitment, those who are making that argument aren't much different than the the UW fans that did the same thing.

[GGGG]

I'm just taking Pakuni's word . . .


Yet you didn't bother to share what you were heraring when Harris was visiting.  Instead, you said this: 

You obviously are going to feel a lot better if you are convinced that Harris had become our first choice as opposed to a Plan B to White.

I"m just saying that in the absence of any indication of that PRIOR to Harris' commitment, those who are making that argument aren't much different than the the UW fans that did the same thing.

See above.  I had more information.  I didn't share it.

[The Equalizer]

See above.  I had more information.  I didn't share it.

Really? 

Because two days ago you said you didn't know why Buzz took Harris over White and stressed that you could only guess as to the reason.

Actually it very well might not be silly.  We don't know.  Bo very well may have "cooled" on someone and we don't know any different.  We don't ridicule their fan base because they say that occasionally...we ridicule them because that seems to be their only excuse.

In this case however, it is very clear that Buzz stopped recruiting White when Harris committed.  I would also guess that over the course of time, Buzz began to prefer Harris and his style of play over White's, but that would be simply a guess.

[GGGG]

The "we don't know" was in reference to the phrase "Bo cooling on" someone and how that might be an accurate statement.  It has nothing to do with this specific instance.

The second part was guessing as to *why* Buzz preferred Harris over White.  Not *if* he did.

Look, you are simply wrong here.

[The Equalizer]

The "we don't know" was in reference to the phrase "Bo cooling on" someone and how that might be an accurate statement.  It has nothing to do with this specific instance.

Actually, this specific instance looks exactly like what the UW fans get ridiculed for.

When this came up with respect to UW, we saw that Bo recruited a player for a long period of time, suddenly lands a different player, and after the fact their fans claim that Bo really preferred the player he landed over the one he pursued over time.

Tell me how this situation is any different.

Buzz recruits a player for a long period of time?  Check.
Buzz lands a different player?  Check.
Fans here start claiming after the fact that Buzz really preferred Harris?  Check.

The second part was guessing as to *why* Buzz preferred Harris over White.  Not *if* he did.

I'll ask one more time . . . can you point anything prior to June that documents this?

Beacause this looks more like a situation where White lost interest in MU, and therefore the MU staff turned attention to Harris.

[Pakuni]

Beacause this looks more like a situation where White lost interest in MU, and therefore the MU staff turned attention to Harris.

Except there's evidence that contradicts this.
In the Sun-Times story published two days before Harris committed (which I linked previously) White lists Marquette as one off the schools in which he was interested.

Also, MU had been recruiting Harris for months ahead of his commitment. They did not abruptly "turn their attention" to him.

I still find it amusing that you somehow believe this place is an accurate barometer for the coaching staff's interest in as player. Must be why we read for weeks on end around here about players like John Dawson, Jimmy Butler and Bret Roseboro.

[The Equalizer]

Except there's evidence that contradicts this.
In the Sun-Times story published two days before Harris committed (which I linked previously) White lists Marquette as one off the schools in which he was interested.

Re-read the article.  White says no such thing.

The list of 10 schools listed at the end wasn't presented as White's current list--it was just a summary of schools with mutual interest at some point during his recruitment. 

There's no way to know from this article if MU was trimmed weeks before this article, was in but about about to be left off the trimmed list, or was still in that list.

Also, MU had been recruiting Harris for months ahead of his commitment. They did not abruptly "turn their attention" to him.

Depends on what you mean by recruiting him.  Harris didn't even have an offer until after his performance at the Jayhawk Invitational April 26-28, 2013:
http://painttouches.com/2013/07/01/harris-transforms-into-a-marquette-player/

Abrupt is your choice of word, so I don't reallly know what you meant by it.  But its clear that MU turned their attention to Harris pretty late in the process.

I still find it amusing that you somehow believe this place is an accurate barometer for the coaching staff's interest in as player. Must be why we read for weeks on end around here about players like John Dawson, Jimmy Butler and Bret Roseboro.

I already addressed this once. While you find it "amusing", I'll note that in the last day there have been no fewer than six active threads on MU recruits.

BTW, there were even several threads on Butler before he committed--and Buzz had only been coach for a few days--not nearly long enough for people to have been watching his recruiting over time.
 
But you are correct about Roseboro. That was a surprise. Not sure I'd want to make that the foundation of my argument, but hey, if that's the best you have, I guess you have to go with it. 

[MuMark]

So what you are saying is every time a kid trims his list and MU isn't on it any longer it was always the kids idea? MU can never change their thoughts on a kid?

Every school.....EVERY SCHOOL....starts out with big lists and for one reason or another those lists become smaller as they get closer to signing day.

Sometimes the kid moves on.. ......We didn't cool on Looney...he cooled on us.....Same with Turner and GoodLuck......and Embiid and Parker last year.....

So now that I have satisfied you by naming 5 kids in the last 2 years who "cooled on us" (and their are more) can you just entertain the possibility that Buzz actually preferred Harris to White?

Why is this so damn hard to believe? 

[brewcity77]

Sometimes the kid moves on.. ......We didn't cool on Looney...he cooled on us.....Same with Turner and GoodLuck......and Embiid and Parker last year.....

Agreed on all but Looney, he admitted that MU had stopped contacting him and he didn't seem to know why. Though MU only seemed to cool on Looney because the staff felt they had no chance of landing him, not because he wasn't good enough. But if you look at Looney's comments, MU cut contact first.

But I'll add Kaleb Joseph, Reid Travis, and LJ Peak as guys the staff seemed to have legit interest in that cooled on Marquette.

[MuMark]

It's a matter of semantics on Looney....the staff stopped contacting him only because they knew they had no shot at that point so they moved on.

To me that is the player making the decision for you not vice versa.

Agreed on all but Looney, he admitted that MU had stopped contacting him and he didn't seem to know why. Though MU only seemed to cool on Looney because the staff felt they had no chance of landing him, not because he wasn't good enough. But if you look at Looney's comments, MU cut contact first.

But I'll add Kaleb Joseph, Reid Travis, and LJ Peak as guys the staff seemed to have legit interest in that cooled on Marquette.

[brewcity77]

Fair enough, regardless, plenty have moved on from MU, and MU has moved on from plenty more. It takes two to make a commitment, and any discerning staff will say no just as often as players will say no to the staff.

[Pakuni]

Re-read the article.  White says no such thing.

The list of 10 schools listed at the end wasn't presented as White's current list--it was just a summary of schools with mutual interest at some point during his recruitment. 

There's no way to know from this article if MU was trimmed weeks before this article, was in but about about to be left off the trimmed list, or was still in that list.

So, it's your contention that the Sun-Times published a story on White's recruitment in which they quote him extensively about the process, what he's looking for in a school and his plans for the upcoming season ... but then when it comes to list of the schools he's considering, they just made that up?

Because, despite interviewing him  about the process, what he's looking for in a school and his plans for the upcoming season, they wouldn't have also asked him what schools he was considering?

Hard to argue with that kind of logic.