Paul White to Georgetown

[GGGG]

I think it's safe to cross him off our list now.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/hoopsreport/2013/09/youngs_paul_white_commits_to_g.html

[Pakuni]

Not a surprise. Been leaning that way for a while now.

[willie warrior]

Yeah, we did not want him anyhow. Georgetown's loss is our gain. This will open up Illinois for us on better studs.

[GGGG]

5 minutes, 11 seconds.  I expected under 5:00 willie.  You're slipping...

[Ellenson Guerrero]

I guess HoyaCutie33 was very persuasive...

[wadesworld]

Yeah, we did not want him anyhow. Georgetown's loss is our gain. This will open up Illinois for us on better studs.

Gotta love when Willie cries because we're not pursuing bigs and only getting switchables and then when a switchable goes elsewhere he cries because we didn't get him.

[brewcity77]

Yeah, we did not want him anyhow. Georgetown's loss is our gain. This will open up Illinois for us on better studs.

You actually got one right! After Malek Harris committed, we didn't want White.

[willie warrior]

I guess losing one to Georgetown isn't that big a deal. Oh wait, I forgot, he is a switchable that we did not want.

[Pakuni]

I guess losing one to Georgetown isn't that big a deal. Oh wait, I forgot, he is a switchable that we did not want.

Durrr.
MU didn't "lose" one to Georgetown. MU was recruiting White and Harris for the same spot. Harris committed, thus White no longer was a priority for MU. I'm sure Buzz would have taken the commitment had White really wanted to play for him, but for all intents MU no longer was recruiting him.
You don't "lose" a player you're not recruiting.

[Eldon]

Glad he's in the conference.

[brewcity77]

I guess losing one to Georgetown isn't that big a deal. Oh wait, I forgot, he is a switchable that we did not want.

This is very simple. Marquette had a scholarship open that Buzz intended for a switchable, most likely replacing the position Jamil Wilson is currently playing. Both White and Harris were recruited for that spot, but only one can fill it. You only have 13 scholarships, so you can't take everyone. Marquette's first choice was Harris. When he committed, the scholarship was filled. There was no further need nor interest in White because we had the guy we wanted.

I don't know what you want, unless you are just one of those people who is only happy when they are pissing and moaning like a 4-year-old who just threw all his toys out of the tub. We were no longer recruiting White. Bitching that he didn't come here is like bitching that Jordan McLaughlin is going to USC. We weren't recruiting him. We didn't "lose out" on McLaughlin to USC any more than we "lost out" on White to Georgetown.

Just because we were once recruiting him doesn't mean we still are. When Looney goes to Duke, when Cliff Alexander goes to Kansas, when James Blackmon goes to Kentucky, when Quadri Moore goes to Cincy, those aren't guys we are losing out on anymore because they aren't guys we are recruiting anymore.

But since wee willie likes to whine, we'll probably still hear you crying about each one of them.

[wadesworld]

This is very simple. Marquette had a scholarship open that Buzz intended for a switchable, most likely replacing the position Jamil Wilson is currently playing. Both White and Harris were recruited for that spot, but only one can fill it. You only have 13 scholarships, so you can't take everyone. Marquette's first choice was Harris. When he committed, the scholarship was filled. There was no further need nor interest in White because we had the guy we wanted.

I don't know what you want, unless you are just one of those people who is only happy when they are pissing and moaning like a 4-year-old who just threw all his toys out of the tub. We were no longer recruiting White. Bitching that he didn't come here is like bitching that Jordan McLaughlin is going to USC. We weren't recruiting him. We didn't "lose out" on McLaughlin to USC any more than we "lost out" on White to Georgetown.

Just because we were once recruiting him doesn't mean we still are. When Looney goes to Duke, when Cliff Alexander goes to Kansas, when James Blackmon goes to Kentucky, when Quadri Moore goes to Cincy, those aren't guys we are losing out on anymore because they aren't guys we are recruiting anymore.

But since wee willie likes to whine, we'll probably still hear you crying about each one of them.

What he wants is every single player who is ranked in the top 150 on Marquette's roster, plus every single JUCO All American, every single year.

[Pakuni]

What he wants is every single player 6'8" and up (guards need not apply) who is ranked in the top 150 on Marquette's roster, plus every single JUCO All American, every single year.

Fixed

[jeffreyweee]

This is very simple. Marquette had a scholarship open that Buzz intended for a switchable, most likely replacing the position Jamil Wilson is currently playing. Both White and Harris were recruited for that spot, but only one can fill it. You only have 13 scholarships, so you can't take everyone. Marquette's first choice was Harris. When he committed, the scholarship was filled. There was no further need nor interest in White because we had the guy we wanted.

I don't know what you want, unless you are just one of those people who is only happy when they are pissing and moaning like a 4-year-old who just threw all his toys out of the tub. We were no longer recruiting White. Bitching that he didn't come here is like bitching that Jordan McLaughlin is going to USC. We weren't recruiting him. We didn't "lose out" on McLaughlin to USC any more than we "lost out" on White to Georgetown.

Just because we were once recruiting him doesn't mean we still are. When Looney goes to Duke, when Cliff Alexander goes to Kansas, when James Blackmon goes to Kentucky, when Quadri Moore goes to Cincy, those aren't guys we are losing out on anymore because they aren't guys we are recruiting anymore.

But since wee willie likes to whine, we'll probably still hear you crying about each one of them.

While I agree we didn't lose out on White, Looney is entirely different. We recruited Looney and would still take him right now. We filled White's spot - Looney always has one.

[avid1010]

I guess losing one to Georgetown isn't that big a deal. Oh wait, I forgot, he is a switchable that we did not want.

willie...you need a hug. 

[The Equalizer]

This is very simple. Marquette had a scholarship open that Buzz intended for a switchable, most likely replacing the position Jamil Wilson is currently playing. Both White and Harris were recruited for that spot, but only one can fill it. You only have 13 scholarships, so you can't take everyone. Marquette's first choice was Harris. When he committed, the scholarship was filled. There was no further need nor interest in White because we had the guy we wanted.

Are you sure about this?  Everything I've read indicated that White was one of Buzz's highest recruiting priorities, going so far as to offer him back in 2011 before his sophomore year.

http://www.illinoisloyalty.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=16273
http://fivestarbasketball.com/commitment-corner/01-06-2012-super-soph-paul-white-lists-offers

Suggesting Harris was Buzz's first choice all along seems akin to Wisconsin fans' commenting that "Bo cooled on" a particular recruit whenever he loses one.

Let's not fall into that same trap--there is nothing wrong wth admitting that Buzz wanted White going back two years ago, missed out on that recuiring battle, and instead we got a player we hope will turn out to be every bit as good as White (if not better).  

[Markusquette]

Are you sure about this?  Everything I've read indicated that White was one of Buzz's highest recruiting priorities, going so far as to offer him back in 2011 before his sophomore year.

http://www.illinoisloyalty.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=16273
http://fivestarbasketball.com/commitment-corner/01-06-2012-super-soph-paul-white-lists-offers

Suggesting Harris was Buzz's first choice all along seems akin to Wisconsin fans' commenting that "Bo cooled on" a particular recruit whenever he loses one.

Let's not fall into that same trap--there is nothing wrong wth admitting that Buzz wanted White going back two years ago, missed out on that recuiring battle, and instead we got a player we hope will turn out to be every bit as good as White (if not better).  

Definitely agree.

[MuMark]

BrewCity is right...Both guys were being recruited....as coaches see a player more and more they priotize who they want.....Harris played better then White did for a fairly long period of time. The staff loved his motor......White not so much.

Their are plenty of guys who MU has missed out on.....Looney being one....but recruiting is always fluid....just because we started recruiting White 2 years ago doesn't mean things can't change.....sometimes you like a kid more the longer you see him play....sometimes the reverse is true.....

[77ncaachamps]

I think Buzz wants guys who WANT to be here.

Looney didn't WANT to be here so he's not on our list.

Getting those kids who WANT to be here helps Buzz and the program.

All we need is more of the 4* and 5* to WANT to be at MU. Winning (and placing MUers in the NBA) will solve that.

[Sunbelt15]

I think Buzz wants guys who WANT to be here.

Looney didn't WANT to be here so he's not on our list.

Getting those kids who WANT to be here helps Buzz and the program.

All we need is more of the 4* and 5* to WANT to be at MU. Winning (and placing MUers in the NBA) will solve that.

+1

[brewcity77]

While I agree we didn't lose out on White, Looney is entirely different. We recruited Looney and would still take him right now. We filled White's spot - Looney always has one.

It's for different reasons that we stopped recruiting them -- White because the staff preferred and got Harris and Looney because the staff realized he was going out of state and would be resources wasted -- but the result is the same. We stopped recruiting them. And while White was a major target early on in this class's recruiting cycle, we definitely moved away in the past year. Harris became the top priority.

Ratings only mean so much. I am confident that despite ratings, our staff preferred Harris to White, just as they prefer current targets Lammers, Craig, and Harris to former target and top-100 rated Quadri Moore.

[Dawson Rental]

Durrr.
MU didn't "lose" one to Georgetown. MU was recruiting White and Harris for the same spot. Harris committed, thus White no longer was a priority for MU. I'm sure Buzz would have taken the commitment had White really wanted to play for him, but for all intents MU no longer was recruiting him.
You don't "lose" a player you're not recruiting.

More specifically to Wee Willie, you don't lose your mind when you never had one.

[hoyasincebirth]

Sheesh.

I was wondering how a thread on a recruit you weren't even recruiting got so long. SMH.

[4everwarriors]

You don't know Scoop then, Bro.

[Lennys Tap]

Are you sure about this?  Everything I've read indicated that White was one of Buzz's highest recruiting priorities, going so far as to offer him back in 2011 before his sophomore year.

http://www.illinoisloyalty.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=16273
http://fivestarbasketball.com/commitment-corner/01-06-2012-super-soph-paul-white-lists-offers

Suggesting Harris was Buzz's first choice all along seems akin to Wisconsin fans' commenting that "Bo cooled on" a particular recruit whenever he loses one.

Let's not fall into that same trap--there is nothing wrong wth admitting that Buzz wanted White going back two years ago, missed out on that recuiring battle, and instead we got a player we hope will turn out to be every bit as good as White (if not better).  

Back in 2011, when White was rated in the top 10 of his class (as cited in your link) Ohio State, Arizona and Marquette had White high on their lists. White has dropped substantially since then. I don't know if any of those schools were really recruiting him at the end.

[tower912]

I guess losing one to Georgetown isn't that big a deal. Oh wait, I forgot, he is a switchable that we did not want.

Your comedic talents make me laugh every time. 

[The Equalizer]

I think Buzz wants guys who WANT to be here.

Looney didn't WANT to be here so he's not on our list.

Getting those kids who WANT to be here helps Buzz and the program.

All we need is more of the 4* and 5* to WANT to be at MU. Winning (and placing MUers in the NBA) will solve that.

I don't buy for an instant that Buzz limits his recruiting to only those players who already know they want to come to Marquette.

It's Buzz's job is to CONVINCE players they want to come to Marquette. Not sit back and wait for them to discover it on their own.

[avid1010]

I don't buy for an instant that Buzz limits his recruiting to only those players who already know they want to come to Marquette.

It's Buzz's job is to CONVINCE players they want to come to Marquette. Not sit back and wait for them to discover it on their own.

buzz's job is to win with a team that the university can be proud of.  so far, so good. 

[mu-rara]

I don't buy for an instant that Buzz limits his recruiting to only those players who already know they want to come to Marquette.

It's Buzz's job is to CONVINCE players they want to come to Marquette. Not sit back and wait for them to discover it on their own.

When a player states that they want to go out of state, or al least out of MKE, it is time lost to continue recruiting.  If they don't know, or are open to Marquette, you keep recruiting.

[Dawson Rental]

I don't buy for an instant that Buzz limits his recruiting to only those players who already know they want to come to Marquette.

It's Buzz's job is to CONVINCE players they want to come to Marquette. Not sit back and wait for them to discover it on their own.

And once they decide that they are not interested in Marquette, what is Buzz's job?  To take time away from pursuing recruits that are considering MU to try and change their mind?

[tower912]

Reading the Paint Touches story, the way that Buzz is organized, it looks pretty clear to me that he works hard at recruiting 'Player A'.   If he or his assistants get the word/feeling/vibe that 'Player A' is leaning in another direction, they move on instead of throwing good time/effort/energy after bad.   

[Lennys Tap]

It's Buzz's job is to CONVINCE players they want to come to Marquette. Not sit back and wait for them to discover it on their own.

Buzz, Marquette and the trimmings (boot camp, freshmen in regular student dorms, etc.) aren't for everyone. It's Buzz's job to CONVINCE those players he thinks would buy into the Marquette culture to come to Milwaukee. Some of those who won't will drop Marquette. Others that Buzz doesn't think will end up being dropped by Marquette. Doesn't make much difference really - those guys are better off somewhere else. The ones that hurt are the ones Buzz thinks are the perfect fit who decide otherwise.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Buzz, Marquette and the trimmings (boot camp, freshmen in regular student dorms, etc.) aren't for everyone. It's Buzz's job to CONVINCE those players he thinks would buy into the Marquette culture to come to Milwaukee. Some of those who won't will drop Marquette. Others that Buzz doesn't think will end up being dropped by Marquette. Doesn't make much difference really - those guys are better off somewhere else. The ones that hurt are the ones Buzz thinks are the perfect fit who decide otherwise.

Not necessarily applicable but in my job I only hire employees who fit with the culture of my department. I have turned down 5 star resumes and interviews in favor of 2 stars who will clearly buy into what my department is trying to do. Now what I do, and what Buzz does is very different. There is an argument to be made for the value of pure talent. But personally I prefer "fit" over talent.

Back to the original topic, congrats to both White and Georgetown. This commitment only makes our conference stronger. We will have plenty of opportunities to see Harris vs. White in the future. We can let their games decide who ended up with the better commit.

[The Equalizer]

And once they decide that they are not interested in Marquette, what is Buzz's job?  To take time away from pursuing recruits that are considering MU to try and change their mind?

The comment I responded to said Buzz only recruits players who WANT to come to Marquette.

That is just factually wrong, and just a plain stupid comment.

I'll give you a great example.  Jimmy Butler didn't even have Marquette anywhere near his radar, no less WANTED to come here.  Buzz had to reach out to him and convince him that Marquette was the place for him.

[The Equalizer]

Buzz, Marquette and the trimmings (boot camp, freshmen in regular student dorms, etc.) aren't for everyone. It's Buzz's job to CONVINCE those players he thinks would buy into the Marquette culture to come to Milwaukee. Some of those who won't will drop Marquette. Others that Buzz doesn't think will end up being dropped by Marquette. Doesn't make much difference really - those guys are better off somewhere else. The ones that hurt are the ones Buzz thinks are the perfect fit who decide otherwise.

Take out Buzz and Marquette and insert any coach and college, and you have a statement that applies just about anywhere.

I've got issue with two statements in this thread.

1:  That Buzz only recruits players who "WANT" to come to Marquette.  As I mentioned in another response, Jimmy Butler is a great example of a guy who proves the theory wrong.  Butler was never considering Marquette, didn't have us on his radar, and had never been to campus.  Buzz CONVINCED him to come here--that's a perfect example what I'm talking about.

2:  Making up the "Bo cooled on him" type statements when a highly-rated player chooses to go elsewhere.  We've ridiculed Wisconsin when they took a borderline top 100 player over a borderline top 50 player and their fans tried to spin it as "we got the guy we wanted all along".  It's a silly argument when UW fans make it, and its no more serious when our fans do it.  Hopefully we'll get lucky and the guy we did get will turn out as strong or stronger.

[MuMark]

Not really true about Butler. Buzz built a relationship with him when he was recruiting Fulce...not sure I would describe this as "convincing him" that Mu was the place for him.

Butler, by the way, is at Marquette because Williams kept a promise.

When Williams was still an assistant to Tom Crean, he made recruiting trips to Tyler Junior College in Texas to see Joseph Fulce, who eventually committed to the Golden Eagles. Butler played on the same team.

“Buzz was like a really cool person, and he would always come and check up on Joe,” Butler said. “But he never really talked about basketball. It was always how is school, how is life, how is your family, things like that. And that just rubbed off on me. And he kind of talked to me the same way — not that he was recruiting me, but he was talking to me as a person.”
Butler said Williams told him that if he became a head coach again, he would love to take him. Shortly after Williams succeeded Crean, he offered Butler a scholarship.

“He got the job, and he held his word, which was real big to me because he was actually telling the truth when he said that,” Butler said.

[ChicosBailBonds]

buzz's job is to win with a team that the university can be proud of.  so far, so good. 

For most years, yes.  Some years are a bit harder than others in that category.

[Pakuni]

2:  Making up the "Bo cooled on him" type statements when a highly-rated player chooses to go elsewhere.  We've ridiculed Wisconsin when they took a borderline top 100 player over a borderline top 50 player and their fans tried to spin it as "we got the guy we wanted all along".  It's a silly argument when UW fans make it, and its no more serious when our fans do it.  Hopefully we'll get lucky and the guy we did get will turn out as strong or stronger.

Except this isn't at all what happened with the Harris/White situation.
Buzz recruited both for a "switchable" role he was trying to fill. Which player he wanted more, I don't know. Neither do you.
What we do know is that Harris committed first, filling that switchable role. Logic (and reports of MU no longer pursuing White) dictates that Buzz was not looking for two switchables in the same class.

Keep in mind, MU was still on White's list as late as June 24.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/hoopsreport/2013/06/paul_white_and_other_2014_recr.html

Two days after that story was published, Harris committed to MU. A couple of months later, White trimmed his list and MU was no longer on it.
Coincidence? Seems to me both parties moved on once Harris committed to MU.
It could very well be that Buzz would have preferred White, but figured a bird in the hand was better and took Harris' commitment when he could. But it's clear that the spot White would have taken at MU was already filled.

[brandx]

Except this isn't at all what happened with the Harris/White situation.
Buzz recruited both for a "switchable" role he was trying to fill. Which player he wanted more, I don't know. Neither do you.
What we do know is that Harris committed first, filling that switchable role. Logic (and reports of MU no longer pursuing White) dictates that Buzz was not looking for two switchables in the same class.

Keep in mind, MU was still on White's list as late as June 24.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/hoopsreport/2013/06/paul_white_and_other_2014_recr.html

Two days after that story was published, Harris committed to MU. A couple of months later, White trimmed his list and MU was no longer on it.
Coincidence? Seems to me both parties moved on once Harris committed to MU.
It could very well be that Buzz would have preferred White, but figured a bird in the hand was better and took Harris' commitment when he could. But it's clear that the spot White would have taken at MU was already filled.

Great post.

Every recruitment is different. Sometimes it is the player saying no - sometimes the school moving away from a player. That's the problem with the star rating. There are many 4 & 5 star players that Buzz wouldn't consider. It takes a certain type of person (character) to play for Buzz.

[tower912]

Great point.   You can say that about lots of coaches.   Bo gets a certain kind of player who wants to play for him.   Shaka gets a certain type of player who wants to participate in the Havoc.   JT3 gets certain kind of players who want to play his style and who buy into his track record of getting players to the Association.   MU already has two switchables in this next class, Harris, a 3-4, and Cohen a 1-2-3.     I am comfortable in assuming that one of the two remaining slots is for a 4-5, and the other is for a shooter.   Paul White is a good player.   I think he will do well in the Hoya system.  But he was redundant for this next class after Harris committed.

[NersEllenson]

What people fail to realize is that Equalizer/MU84 is going to take any shot he can at Buzz/the quality of job Buzz has done.  Par for the course.

[The Equalizer]

Except this isn't at all what happened with the Harris/White situation.

Buzz recruited both for a "switchable" role he was trying to fill. Which player he wanted more, I don't know. Neither do you.

Funny how in one breath you can say "this isn't at all what happened" and in the next claim "I don't know." 

Well which is it? If you don't know, how can you start the argument it isn't at all what happened.

Never mind. I'll accept your statement that you don't really know. Neither does anybody else.  Which makes it equally silly when our fans claim in so many words that "Bo Buzz cooled on White" as it was when UW fans did it.

No coach, including Buzz, gets 100% of the players they go after.  Thus, as I said before, there's nothing wrong wth admitting as much, and hoping that they player we got will turn out to be every bit as good as White (if not better). 

[Pakuni]

Funny how in one breath you can say "this isn't at all what happened" and in the next claim "I don't know." 

Well which is it? If you don't know, how can you start the argument it isn't at all what happened.

Never mind. I'll accept your statement that you don't really know. Neither does anybody else.  Which makes it equally silly when our fans claim in so many words that "Bo Buzz cooled on White" as it was when UW fans did it.

No coach, including Buzz, gets 100% of the players they go after.  Thus, as I said before, there's nothing wrong wth admitting as much, and hoping that they player we got will turn out to be every bit as good as White (if not better). 

What? Can you not read?
When I wrote "I don't know" I was specifically referring to which player Buzz preferred, not the sequence of events surrounding their recruitment. That ought to be obvious to any reasonably intelligent person.

Nobody here has suggested Buzz cooled on White. What's been suggested is that after landing a 3/4 switchable in Harris he ended/slowed his pursuit of another 3/4 switchable in White. Buzz, for all we know, loves White as a player, but that doesn't mean he's going to stay on him after landing a very similar player in Harris.
Of course, you know all this.

[tower912]

What people fail to realize is that Equalizer/MU84 is going to take any shot he can at Buzz/the quality of job Buzz has done.  Par for the course.

Oh, no.   EVERYBODY realizes it.   

[GGGG]

2:  Making up the "Bo cooled on him" type statements when a highly-rated player chooses to go elsewhere.  We've ridiculed Wisconsin when they took a borderline top 100 player over a borderline top 50 player and their fans tried to spin it as "we got the guy we wanted all along".  It's a silly argument when UW fans make it, and its no more serious when our fans do it.  Hopefully we'll get lucky and the guy we did get will turn out as strong or stronger.

Actually it very well might not be silly.  We don't know.  Bo very well may have "cooled" on someone and we don't know any different.  We don't ridicule their fan base because they say that occasionally...we ridicule them because that seems to be their only excuse.

In this case however, it is very clear that Buzz stopped recruiting White when Harris committed.  I would also guess that over the course of time, Buzz began to prefer Harris and his style of play over White's, but that would be simply a guess.

[willie warrior]

What people fail to realize is that Equalizer/MU84 is going to take any shot he can at Buzz/the quality of job Buzz has done.  Par for the course.

Yeah--we cannot tolerate any criticism of in Buzz we trust. That is not PC on this board. Remember, Kool Aid is the Happy Hour drink.

[NersEllenson]

Yeah--we cannot tolerate any criticism of in Buzz we trust. That is not PC on this board. Remember, Kool Aid is the Happy Hour drink.

So what you are saying is that we CAN tolerate any criticism of Buzz?  We all know that isn't how you feel Willie - so you've basically just demonstrated yourself as relatively unintelligent because your usage of sarcasm directly conflicts with your viewpoint.  Better go back to the drawing board on this troll attempt Willie.   

[The Equalizer]

Actually it very well might not be silly.  We don't know.  Bo very well may have "cooled" on someone and we don't know any different.  We don't ridicule their fan base because they say that occasionally...we ridicule them because that seems to be their only excuse.

In this case however, it is very clear that Buzz stopped recruiting White when Harris committed.  I would also guess that over the course of time, Buzz began to prefer Harris and his style of play over White's, but that would be simply a guess.

It might help if we start with you re-reading the comment that I initially responded to:

You only have 13 scholarships, so you can't take everyone. Marquette's first choice was Harris. When he committed, the scholarship was filled. There was no further need nor interest in White because we had the guy we wanted.

Pakuni claims nobody knows.  You claim you can "only guess".  I can accept those sort of statements.    

The comment I intially replied to unambiguously flat-out claimed that "Marquette's first choice was Harris."  
  
That's one theory--but its certainly possible that White may have told Buzz privately that MU was off his list long before news was public, and prompted to Buzz to ramp up his recruitment of Harris. Or Buzz was completely indifferent and took the first player to commit.  Or Buzz may have preferred White, but took Harris (as Pakuni theorizes) under the theory that he didn't want to risk waiting and losing out on both.

Therefore, given that we don't know the reason when someone says after the fact that "Marquette's first choice was Harris", it sure sounds an awful lot like those UW fans who claim "Bo cooled on Player X".    

[GGGG]

It might help if we start with you re-reading the comment that I initially responded to:

Pakuni claims nobody knows.  You claim you can "only guess".  I can accept those sort of statements.     

The comment I intially replied to unambiguously flat-out claimed that "Marquette's first choice was Harris." 
 
Its certainly possible that White may have told Buzz privately that MU was off his list long before news was public, and prompted to Buzz to ramp up his recruitment of Harris. Or Buzz was completely indifferent and took the first player to commit.  Or Buzz may have preferred White, but took Harris (as Pakuni theorizes) under the theory that he didn't want to risk waiting and losing out on both.

Therefore, given that we don't know the reason when someone says after the fact that "Marquette's first choice was Harris", it sure sounds an awful lot like those UW fans who claim "Bo cooled on Player X".   

I am only saying "I guess" because I am not 100% certain.  However my certainty that brew is correct exceeds 95%. 

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, there are concerns about *how* White plays.  Now contrast that with what has been described about Harris and his style of play, and you can see how Buzz might be more interested.

[willie warrior]

So what you are saying is that we CAN tolerate any criticism of Buzz?  We all know that isn't how you feel Willie - so you've basically just demonstrated yourself as relatively unintelligent because your usage of sarcasm directly conflicts with your viewpoint.  Better go back to the drawing board on this troll attempt Willie.   

Ners "we all know how you feel Willie". Translation: You have no clue. "Basically just demonstrated"--one can surely figure out that means nothing except in your eyes. And finally "relatively unintelligent"--If the shoe fits, wear it, Ners.

[Lennys Tap]

Ners "we all know how you feel Willie". Translation: You have no clue. "Basically just demonstrated"--one can surely figure out that means nothing except in your eyes. And finally "relatively unintelligent"--If the shoe fits, wear it, Ners.

You are fond of making unambiguous, declarative statements (It is unacceptable for Buzz to not sign a 4 or 5 star  big). No wiggle room, unacceptable, as in intolerable. To those who can read and comprehend the English language such a statement implies consequences if Buzz is unsuccessful. What consequences? When pressed, you pivot. No consequences for unacceptable performance. Then you follow up with some weak "nobody knows how I feel" BS. If that's true it's because you don't communicate it very well.

[BrewCity83]

Not necessarily applicable but in my job I only hire employees who fit with the culture of my department. I have turned down 5 star resumes and interviews in favor of 2 stars who will clearly buy into what my department is trying to do. Now what I do, and what Buzz does is very different. There is an argument to be made for the value of pure talent. But personally I prefer "fit" over talent.

TAMU Eagle = Bo Ryan?

[The Equalizer]

I am only saying "I guess" because I am not 100% certain.  However my certainty that brew is correct exceeds 95%. 

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, there are concerns about *how* White plays.  Now contrast that with what has been described about Harris and his style of play, and you can see how Buzz might be more interested.

And I'm about 95% certain Pakuni is correct--that Buzz thought the certainty of landing Harris outweighed risking a delay to wait for White--especially when Arizona was still in the mix.
 
All I can add is that its funny how all those concerns about White and superiority of Harris suddenly materialized in the June 23-27 timeframe--when Harris' visit & commitment first appeared on the board.

You'd think SOMEONE here would have been hyping Harris going back to Midnight Madness--he and White both came to MU that night.  Nope.  All season, White was the obvious priority, second only to Looney.  If Harris was mentioned, it was an afterthought to Sean O'Mara. 

If Harris were sjuch a priority, someone in the Chicago area would have gone to his games and followed him throughout the season, given that he was supposedly our first choice recruit. 

And you'd also think SOMEONE here would have been raising concerns about White BEFORE he committed.   

Yet there was no hype for Harris.  No concerns cited about White. 

Until the day we land Harris over White.

But I'm open to any evidence you can offer that you were aware of or preference of Harris and concerns over White prior to June 23.  Just post the links to the threads on this board or others. 

[Pakuni]

And I'm about 95% certain Pakuni is correct--that Buzz thought the certainty of landing Harris outweighed risking a delay to wait for White--especially when Arizona was still in the mix.
 
All I can add is that its funny how all those concerns about White and superiority of Harris suddenly materialized in the June 23-27 timeframe--when Harris' visit & commitment first appeared on the board.

You'd think SOMEONE here would have been hyping Harris going back to Midnight Madness--he and White both came to MU that night.  Nope.  All season, White was the obvious priority, second only to Looney.  If Harris was mentioned, it was an afterthought to Sean O'Mara. 

If Harris were sjuch a priority, someone in the Chicago area would have gone to his games and followed him throughout the season, given that he was supposedly our first choice recruit. 

And you'd also think SOMEONE here would have been raising concerns about White BEFORE he committed.   

Yet there was no hype for Harris.  No concerns cited about White. 

Until the day we land Harris over White.

But I'm open to any evidence you can offer that you were aware of or preference of Harris and concerns over White prior to June 23.  Just post the links to the threads on this board or others. 

So, are you suggesting the amount of discussion a recruit generates on MU Scoop is somehow a reflection of how Buzz and his staff evaluate a player? That the amount of "hype" generated on this message board is directly proportional to the coaching staff's interest?
Um .... er ...... hmmm.

[MuMark]

Both IWB and Mark Miller reported that Harris was being targeted ahead of White before Malek verbaled to MU....... not after.......

This is not a case of "we don't want you now that you don't want us".....MU has lost out on many players that they wanted this year and in years past.

Would they have taken White if Harris had not verbaled? I don't know but I have my doubts.....from what I hear the staff was split on him....Some liked him more then others.

We will never know for sure obviously since that decision never had to be made.


Brewcity can confirm this if he so chooses

ps None of this means that White is not a good player and is not a good get for the Hoyas....he could certainly end up having a better career then Harris....time will tell.

MU got the guy they wanted.

[GGGG]

You'd think SOMEONE here would have been hyping Harris going back to Midnight Madness--he and White both came to MU that night.  Nope.  All season, White was the obvious priority, second only to Looney.  If Harris was mentioned, it was an afterthought to Sean O'Mara.

That is absolutely NOT accurate.  Just because you don't know certain things, that doesn't mean they aren't true.

Both IWB and Mark Miller reported that Harris was being targeted ahead of White before Malek verbaled to MU....... not after.......

This is not a case of "we don't want you now that you don't want us".....MU has lost out on many players that they wanted this year and in years past.

Would they have taken White if Harris had not verbaled? I don't know but I have my doubts.....from what I hear the staff was split on him....Some liked him more then others.

We will never know for sure obviously since that decision never had to be made.

Brewcity can confirm this if he so chooses

Not Brewcity, but this is pretty much what I have heard as well...especially about the staff being split on White.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Not necessarily applicable but in my job I only hire employees who fit with the culture of my department. I have turned down 5 star resumes and interviews in favor of 2 stars who will clearly buy into what my department is trying to do. Now what I do, and what Buzz does is very different. There is an argument to be made for the value of pure talent. But personally I prefer "fit" over talent.

Good philosophy

[brewcity77]

Brewcity can confirm this if he so chooses

I heard the same from the same sources at least 6-8 weeks before Harris committed. Similarly, I heard the same about Quadri Moore a month or two ago when MU was still perceived as one of the leaders. He committed to Cincy today. There have been quite a few guys that MU rated differently than national services did.

Also, I am not at all sure the staff was ever all that high on O'Mara. They watched him but never seemed to be very serious (despite it being clear some MU fans wanted the big relatively local body). Considering his final list and where he ended up, I'd say they were right on. I have little doubt that if Marquette truly had any real interest in O'Mara over the guys they are currently pursuing, he'd be here.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU Eagle = Bo Ryan?

I have slapped men for less!

[The Equalizer]

So, are you suggesting the amount of discussion a recruit generates on MU Scoop is somehow a reflection of how Buzz and his staff evaluate a player? That the amount of "hype" generated on this message board is directly proportional to the coaching staff's interest?
Um .... er ...... hmmm.

You've been around long enough to know that recruiting moves are well documeted and commented upon here and other locations--with sources ranging from player twitter accounts, Verbal Commits, various recruiting blogs, the recuirting gurus at ESPN, Bullseye, Rivals, Sporting News, etc., recruit attendance at games, sightings at campus locations, private arcraft flight data, posts about seeing Buzz and/or his staff attending HS games and tournaments, quotes from the recruits themselves to the question "Who's recruting you . . . ", links to other schools boards, comments from friends, brothers, cousins, etc. etc. etc. etc.

But with Harris?  Virtually nothing up until the annoucement of his visit:

Here's the thread annoucing that Harris was visiting:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=32802
Where are all the excited comments from those who supposedly knew that Harris had become was Buzz's priority recruit over White?  The closest was MUMark who said Harris was "a" priority, but stops well short of saying that Harris had become "the" priority ahead of White. 

Yet now we have people coming out of the wordwork saying that they knew for quite a while that this recruiting preference shift had taken place.

Care to explain why the usually vocal MU Scoop audience kept their silence on this one?

[GGGG]

You've been around long enough to know that recruiting moves are well documeted and commented upon here and other locations--with sources ranging from player twitter accounts, Verbal Commits, various recruiting blogs, the recuirting gurus at ESPN, Bullseye, Rivals, Sporting News, etc., recruit attendance at games, sightings at campus locations, private arcraft flight data, posts about seeing Buzz and/or his staff attending HS games and tournaments, quotes from the recruits themselves to the question "Who's recruting you . . . ", links to other schools boards, comments from friends, brothers, cousins, etc. etc. etc. etc.

But with Harris?  Virtually nothing up until the annoucement of his visit:

Here's the thread annoucing that Harris was visiting:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=32802
Where are all the excited comments from those who supposedly knew that Harris had become was Buzz's priority recruit over White?  The closest was MUMark who said Harris was "a" priority, but stops well short of saying that Harris had become "the" priority ahead of White. 

Yet now we have people coming out of the wordwork saying that they knew for quite a while that this recruiting preference shift had taken place.

Care to explain why the usually vocal MU Scoop audience kept their silence on this one?

Because we received the information from a subscription service.

And because Buzz increasingly plays his cards close to his chest.

[The Equalizer]

That is absolutely NOT accurate.  Just because you don't know certain things, that doesn't mean they aren't true.

I'm just taking Pakuni's word . . .

At least six Chicago area prospects will be there tonight, according to Illinois Prep Bullseye: Paul White, Malek Harris, Prentiss Nixon, Roosevelt Smart, Tyler Jackson and Joseph Toye.

Not Brewcity, but this is pretty much what I have heard as well...especially about the staff being split on White.

Yet you didn't bother to share what you were heraring when Harris was visiting.  Instead, you said this: 

Harris visiting today.  Was at Purdue earlier in the week and will be at Northwestern tomorrow.

You obviously are going to feel a lot better if you are convinced that Harris had become our first choice as opposed to a Plan B to White.

I"m just saying that in the absence of any indication of that PRIOR to Harris' commitment, those who are making that argument aren't much different than the the UW fans that did the same thing.

[GGGG]

I'm just taking Pakuni's word . . .


Yet you didn't bother to share what you were heraring when Harris was visiting.  Instead, you said this: 

You obviously are going to feel a lot better if you are convinced that Harris had become our first choice as opposed to a Plan B to White.

I"m just saying that in the absence of any indication of that PRIOR to Harris' commitment, those who are making that argument aren't much different than the the UW fans that did the same thing.

See above.  I had more information.  I didn't share it.

[The Equalizer]

See above.  I had more information.  I didn't share it.

Really? 

Because two days ago you said you didn't know why Buzz took Harris over White and stressed that you could only guess as to the reason.

Actually it very well might not be silly.  We don't know.  Bo very well may have "cooled" on someone and we don't know any different.  We don't ridicule their fan base because they say that occasionally...we ridicule them because that seems to be their only excuse.

In this case however, it is very clear that Buzz stopped recruiting White when Harris committed.  I would also guess that over the course of time, Buzz began to prefer Harris and his style of play over White's, but that would be simply a guess.

[GGGG]

The "we don't know" was in reference to the phrase "Bo cooling on" someone and how that might be an accurate statement.  It has nothing to do with this specific instance.

The second part was guessing as to *why* Buzz preferred Harris over White.  Not *if* he did.

Look, you are simply wrong here.

[The Equalizer]

The "we don't know" was in reference to the phrase "Bo cooling on" someone and how that might be an accurate statement.  It has nothing to do with this specific instance.

Actually, this specific instance looks exactly like what the UW fans get ridiculed for.

When this came up with respect to UW, we saw that Bo recruited a player for a long period of time, suddenly lands a different player, and after the fact their fans claim that Bo really preferred the player he landed over the one he pursued over time.

Tell me how this situation is any different.

Buzz recruits a player for a long period of time?  Check.
Buzz lands a different player?  Check.
Fans here start claiming after the fact that Buzz really preferred Harris?  Check.

The second part was guessing as to *why* Buzz preferred Harris over White.  Not *if* he did.

I'll ask one more time . . . can you point anything prior to June that documents this?

Beacause this looks more like a situation where White lost interest in MU, and therefore the MU staff turned attention to Harris.

[Pakuni]

Beacause this looks more like a situation where White lost interest in MU, and therefore the MU staff turned attention to Harris.

Except there's evidence that contradicts this.
In the Sun-Times story published two days before Harris committed (which I linked previously) White lists Marquette as one off the schools in which he was interested.

Also, MU had been recruiting Harris for months ahead of his commitment. They did not abruptly "turn their attention" to him.

I still find it amusing that you somehow believe this place is an accurate barometer for the coaching staff's interest in as player. Must be why we read for weeks on end around here about players like John Dawson, Jimmy Butler and Bret Roseboro.

[The Equalizer]

Except there's evidence that contradicts this.
In the Sun-Times story published two days before Harris committed (which I linked previously) White lists Marquette as one off the schools in which he was interested.

Re-read the article.  White says no such thing.

The list of 10 schools listed at the end wasn't presented as White's current list--it was just a summary of schools with mutual interest at some point during his recruitment. 

There's no way to know from this article if MU was trimmed weeks before this article, was in but about about to be left off the trimmed list, or was still in that list.

Also, MU had been recruiting Harris for months ahead of his commitment. They did not abruptly "turn their attention" to him.

Depends on what you mean by recruiting him.  Harris didn't even have an offer until after his performance at the Jayhawk Invitational April 26-28, 2013:
http://painttouches.com/2013/07/01/harris-transforms-into-a-marquette-player/

Abrupt is your choice of word, so I don't reallly know what you meant by it.  But its clear that MU turned their attention to Harris pretty late in the process.

I still find it amusing that you somehow believe this place is an accurate barometer for the coaching staff's interest in as player. Must be why we read for weeks on end around here about players like John Dawson, Jimmy Butler and Bret Roseboro.

I already addressed this once. While you find it "amusing", I'll note that in the last day there have been no fewer than six active threads on MU recruits.

BTW, there were even several threads on Butler before he committed--and Buzz had only been coach for a few days--not nearly long enough for people to have been watching his recruiting over time.
 
But you are correct about Roseboro. That was a surprise. Not sure I'd want to make that the foundation of my argument, but hey, if that's the best you have, I guess you have to go with it. 

[MuMark]

So what you are saying is every time a kid trims his list and MU isn't on it any longer it was always the kids idea? MU can never change their thoughts on a kid?

Every school.....EVERY SCHOOL....starts out with big lists and for one reason or another those lists become smaller as they get closer to signing day.

Sometimes the kid moves on.. ......We didn't cool on Looney...he cooled on us.....Same with Turner and GoodLuck......and Embiid and Parker last year.....

So now that I have satisfied you by naming 5 kids in the last 2 years who "cooled on us" (and their are more) can you just entertain the possibility that Buzz actually preferred Harris to White?

Why is this so damn hard to believe? 

[brewcity77]

Sometimes the kid moves on.. ......We didn't cool on Looney...he cooled on us.....Same with Turner and GoodLuck......and Embiid and Parker last year.....

Agreed on all but Looney, he admitted that MU had stopped contacting him and he didn't seem to know why. Though MU only seemed to cool on Looney because the staff felt they had no chance of landing him, not because he wasn't good enough. But if you look at Looney's comments, MU cut contact first.

But I'll add Kaleb Joseph, Reid Travis, and LJ Peak as guys the staff seemed to have legit interest in that cooled on Marquette.

[MuMark]

It's a matter of semantics on Looney....the staff stopped contacting him only because they knew they had no shot at that point so they moved on.

To me that is the player making the decision for you not vice versa.

Agreed on all but Looney, he admitted that MU had stopped contacting him and he didn't seem to know why. Though MU only seemed to cool on Looney because the staff felt they had no chance of landing him, not because he wasn't good enough. But if you look at Looney's comments, MU cut contact first.

But I'll add Kaleb Joseph, Reid Travis, and LJ Peak as guys the staff seemed to have legit interest in that cooled on Marquette.

[brewcity77]

Fair enough, regardless, plenty have moved on from MU, and MU has moved on from plenty more. It takes two to make a commitment, and any discerning staff will say no just as often as players will say no to the staff.

[Pakuni]

Re-read the article.  White says no such thing.

The list of 10 schools listed at the end wasn't presented as White's current list--it was just a summary of schools with mutual interest at some point during his recruitment. 

There's no way to know from this article if MU was trimmed weeks before this article, was in but about about to be left off the trimmed list, or was still in that list.

So, it's your contention that the Sun-Times published a story on White's recruitment in which they quote him extensively about the process, what he's looking for in a school and his plans for the upcoming season ... but then when it comes to list of the schools he's considering, they just made that up?

Because, despite interviewing him  about the process, what he's looking for in a school and his plans for the upcoming season, they wouldn't have also asked him what schools he was considering?

Hard to argue with that kind of logic.