What would it take for Buzz to reach Al

[LAZER]

UCLA
UK
IU
UNC
Duke
KU

On the cusp
Louisville, UCONN

Should be interesting to see how long Indiana can stay in that group.  Obviously the program has an incredible reputation and brand, but compared to the others on that list, they're starting to fall pretty far behind in the results category.  So is UCLA to a certain extent.  It's an imaginary group so it doesn't really mean much, but still interesting to compare.

[MuMark]

UCONN will also be fun to follow now that Calhoun is gone and they are not in the Big East any longer.

ps. AZ is recruiting like one of the top 5 or 6 schools the last few years.......Miller looks like a great hire there.

[MU82]

Ahh, now I see what you are saying.  We interpreted the statement totally differently (and thus the comparison), but now I get where you are coming from.  I am coming from a totally different angle, nothing to do with Al.

I took it as if Buzz (in today's impatient world) were to win only 8 games and 14 games in his first two years, he may not be around for a third year....or it was something to that effect from Brew MU82.  I said, that's close to what TC did (6 and 10...actually worse than 8 and 14) at IU and he's still around.  My point was that I agreed that people are less patient and that's why he demanded a longer term deal to allow him to get to years 4 and 5.  So I wasn't comparing him to Al, I was comparing the situation that actually a guy at a big time program can have that kind of record in his first two years and still survive even in today's impatient world, but it requires an administration to bet in the long term with a lot of money and a long contract to protect the coach, show the commitment and keep the natives from jumping off a ledge.

I should have provided more context. Nobody expected Crean to win fast at Indiana, as he was taking over a complete mess.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Should be interesting to see how long Indiana can stay in that group.  Obviously the program has an incredible reputation and brand, but compared to the others on that list, they're starting to fall pretty far behind in the results category.  So is UCLA to a certain extent.  It's an imaginary group so it doesn't really mean much, but still interesting to compare.

I think IU will be fine, even if their current coach flames out.  The problem with IU since Knight retired is that no one else had proved they could bring them back to any sort of relevance.  Mike Davis had the improbable run to the finals, but that was done almost entirely with Knight's players in his second year.  Now that their current coach has shown you can get back to landing very good recruits in the state, can win conference titles, put guys in the pros, I think they will be able to get another coach (if need be) to continue things.  It took someone far enough away from Knight to prove it could be done, and done without the NCAA slamming them for cheating. Now that it has been accomplished, they should be fine regardless of who the coach is because the specter of Knight is largely in the rear view mirror for most but the very fringe holdouts.

[willie warrior]

Wait,  being able to recruit a 5 star big man isn't on your list?

You already know the answer to that---he can't.

[Galway Eagle]

You're right, you didn't actually say "kind of" so I shouldn't have put it in quotes. You only kind of suggested it.

Ok lemme put my train of thought like this.  If you were to replace black with gay at any point from the start of BBall would you call all the coaches anti gays in sports or would you call them products of their environment when nobody thought there could be top gay athletes? That's how I'm looking at Rupp.  It's not like he grew up in a city during the years where integration was becoming big.  He was a product of his environment.  And also at no time did I insinuate that he was "kind of a racist"

[mileskishnish72]

Goose and Lenny, you nailed it. There will never be another Al, but Buzz is pretty cool and I'm just loving the fact that this is starting to be a topic for discussion. I hope Buzz and MU do so GD well that us old farts get outnumbered as there are fewer and fewer around who remember Al - we'll still have those memories.

[tower912]

To throw this thread COMPLETELY off of the rails, can you imagine what the internal conflicts would have been like if Larry Williams and Fr. Pilarz had been in charge when Al was the coach?  Dear Lord. 
   Al was an icon.    Buzz is a really good coach with the potential to be a great coach. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

To throw this thread COMPLETELY off of the rails, can you imagine what the internal conflicts would have been like if Larry Williams and Fr. Pilarz had been in charge when Al was the coach?  Dear Lord. 
   Al was an icon.    Buzz is a really good coach with the potential to be a great coach. 

Would there be any?  We keep hearing about all these conflicts, but we hear them from only Buzz's camp.  Always two sides of the story and right now, Buzz is still at MU.  Sounds overblown....or as if Hiroshima was shooting blanks.

[Aughnanure]

Should be interesting to see how long Indiana can stay in that group.  Obviously the program has an incredible reputation and brand, but compared to the others on that list, they're starting to fall pretty far behind in the results category.  So is UCLA to a certain extent.  It's an imaginary group so it doesn't really mean much, but still interesting to compare.

I actually think its harder to fall OUT of that group than gain entry into it. Indiana, for good or wrong reasons, will forever have that brand blue-blood name now. ESPN and sports media have really helped lock this in. Hell, before Roy Williams, Kansas didn't look so exceedingly above their rivals in the Big 12. But they became utterly dominant in the 90s and locked in that perception.

[Lennys Tap]

Would there be any?  We keep hearing about all these conflicts, but we hear them from only Buzz's camp.  Always two sides of the story and right now, Buzz is still at MU.  Sounds overblown....or as if Hiroshima was shooting blanks.

Al was the coach AND the AD. I assume that Fr Raynor was OK with our student athletes meeting the same eligibility requirements as Indiana or Wisconsin, but if he wasn't and wanted them altered Al would have gone ballistic.

[Galway Eagle]

Al was the coach AND the AD. I assume that Fr Raynor was OK with our student athletes meeting the same eligibility requirements as Indiana or Wisconsin, but if he wasn't and wanted them altered Al would have gone ballistic.

Think Al would've stayed if he could have just been a coach not an AD as well back then?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Al was the coach AND the AD. I assume that Fr Raynor was OK with our student athletes meeting the same eligibility requirements as Indiana or Wisconsin, but if he wasn't and wanted them altered Al would have gone ballistic.

Yup, but let's also not pretend the NCAA rules back then were like they are today, or the enforcement or the million eyeballs of investigators known as fans with axes to grind, etc.  Lots of stuff happened back in the days at UCLA, SJU, IU, MU, etc. 

[Sunbelt15]

To throw this thread COMPLETELY off of the rails, can you imagine what the internal conflicts would have been like if Larry Williams and Fr. Pilarz had been in charge when Al was the coach?  Dear Lord. 
   Al was an icon.    Buzz is a really good coach with the potential to be a great coach. 

No disrespect, but if Al is an icon, why isn't his name never mentioned with the likes of J. Wooden, D. Smith, Coach K., etc? Hell, Knight only won one championship and his name is mentioned more than Al's when the topic of great coaches are reported. Please don't roast me; just a question for conversation.

[GGGG]

No disrespect, but if Al is an icon, why isn't his name never mentioned with the likes of J. Wooden, D. Smith, Coach K., etc? Hell, Knight only won one championship and his name is mentioned more than Al's when the topic of great coaches are reported. Please don't roast me; just a question for conversation.

Knight won three championships...made five final fours (would have been six IMO but I think one of his better teams bowed out in the E8 after the Alan Henderson injury in '93)...and won 11 conference titles.  Oh and a gold medal back in '84 during an era when that wasn't exactly a given.

Al is *our* icon.  And there aren't many coaches who retired 35 years ago who are still mentioned nearly everytime that their team is broadcast nationally.

[Goose]

Terror

I do think it is amazing the air time Al has kept for all these years. To still be talked about as much after 35 years is unreal to me.

[Sunbelt15]

Knight won three championships...made five final fours (would have been six IMO but I think one of his better teams bowed out in the E8 after the Alan Henderson injury in '93)...and won 11 conference titles.  Oh and a gold medal back in '84 during an era when that wasn't exactly a given.

Al is *our* icon.  And there aren't many coaches who retired 35 years ago who are still mentioned nearly everytime that their team is broadcast nationally.

I stand corrected.

[GGGG]

Terror

I do think it is amazing the air time Al has kept for all these years. To still be talked about as much after 35 years is unreal to me.

Think about what would have happened if he hadn't retired **before the age of 50.**

He retired just before college basketball hit it big on ESPN, etc.  If he would have stayed on, and things went right with the University, he probably gets to more Final Fours and pushes the program even more into the spotlight.

[Sunbelt15]

Knight won three championships...made five final fours (would have been six IMO but I think one of his better teams bowed out in the E8 after the Alan Henderson injury in '93)...and won 11 conference titles.  Oh and a gold medal back in '84 during an era when that wasn't exactly a given.

Al is *our* icon.  And there aren't many coaches who retired 35 years ago who are still mentioned nearly everytime that their team is broadcast nationally.

But is he mentioned because of the stadium we play? He changed our program like the greats changed theirs, but is never mentioned with the greats when coaching history is reported.

[tower912]

Too short a span.    The greats coached for decades and won a lot of games for a long time.    Al made his hay in 10 years and then walked away and stayed out of coaching.   You can put those 10 years up against just about anybody not named Wooden, but it was still only 10 good years.

[GGGG]

But is he mentioned because of the stadium we play? He changed our program like the greats changed theirs, but is never mentioned with the greats when coaching history is reported.

Tower hit on it.  Al isn't a "coaching legend" because he was around for decades and won a bunch of national championships.  He's a legend because he was like a shooting star - around for only a short period of time...but that period of time was spectacular.  And not just because of the basketball being played.  But the off the court stuff...the uniforms, etc.

[NersEllenson]

Tower hit on it.  Al isn't a "coaching legend" because he was around for decades and won a bunch of national championships.  He's a legend because he was like a shooting star - around for only a short period of time...but that period of time was spectacular.  And not just because of the basketball being played.  But the off the court stuff...the uniforms, etc.

Wouldn't be surprised at all if this is the path Buzz takes....he speaks to the toll and grind it is to win at this level in this day and age.  He's also quirky enough to do something unconventional like retire right as he hits his prime/possible legend status.  Only thing that makes me doubt if he goes this route, would be if he could go from such a busy/hectic lifestyle to one so laid back in retirement - even if that meant taking a job as a TV commentator..

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

It'll just take a NC and some time... I love reading Al stories, but I didn't follow MU until after he had passed.

With all due respect to him and his legacy, Buzz winning a NC while I am actually following the team would put him ahead of Al as far as just I am concerned.

Here's the morbid part: Over time older alums will pass away and eventually I'll be the 60 year old dude talking about how the MU coach in 32 years might be able to catch Buzz

[Goose]

Ners

Guys like Al retiring at 47 and staying out of the game just does not happen. Funny thing is Al always was chasing the dollar and if he remained at MU anouther 5-10 years he would have made much more than he actually did by leaving. The sly one might have outsmarted himself.

[4everwarriors]

No disrespect, but if Al is an icon, why isn't his name never mentioned with the likes of J. Wooden, D. Smith, Coach K., etc? Hell, Knight only won one championship and his name is mentioned more than Al's when the topic of great coaches are reported. Please don't roast me; just a question for conversation.

How 'bout legendary, then?