What would it take for Buzz to reach Al

[boyonthedock]

Crum and pitino; rupp, pitino, smith, calipari;smith and wiliams; naismith, brown, williams, self.

[brewcity77]

4. Become a very colorful and sought after basketball commentary guy for televised games on a major sports network. 

Honestly, I thought about adding that to my original criteria. Part of what made Al Al was that he was woven into the national basketball tapestry for 2 decades after he left. It also doesn't get any better than cutting down the nets in your final year when all the world knows it's your last shot.

That's why Buzz matching Al is such a Herculean task. Al was more than winning and turning MU into an elite program, he was a persona and an enduring ambassador. I hope Buzz gets there, but I realize that in some people's eyes, that's a near impossibility.

[Goose]

brewcity

I actually think that the extreme pro Al group is pulling harder for Buzz. We saw what a legend can do to make a program and actually have experience to compare it with. Since the day Al left MU I have been pulling for the next Al and believe Buzz is closest to being there in long time. Cannot speak for all  the older guys, but I know the world has changed since March of 1977. Buzz has different challenges than Al did and it looks like he is passing them all with flying colors. IMO Buzz's quirkiness, ability to relate with city kids and shoot from the hip communication makes him a modern day Al to some extent.

Winning is big part of it for the Al group and that will not change. Making MU a brand again is even bigger to me. I want us to be an opposing team's biggest game and have other team's fans wanting to be beat us badly. Winning gives you a target, but us against the world mentality enhances that IMO.

[Marqevans]

Grow to 6'5", develop a New York accent, and drive a Harley!

[ChicosBailBonds]

Not even close.

Please explain how it isn't close

He won 6 games year one
10 games year two
12 games year three

I'd say quite close

[ChicosBailBonds]

I agree.

Quite frankly, the greatest accomplishment in terms of building a program up from scratch in the modern era belongs to Jim Calhoun. And its not even close. He took an after-thought program and turned it into a powerhouse...winning 3 titles and sending a ton of kids to the NBA in the lottery.

Coach K didnt do that. Duke was the runner-up in '78 and K signed on in '80. Boeheim didnt do that (Syracuse went to the Final 4 in 1975...and Dave Bing (one of the greatest college players ever) was pre-Boeheim. Boeheim took over in 1977....

3 titles?

[bilsu]

Had Buzz won 8 games his first year and 14 his second, there very well might not have been a third. Or at least, the impatience from fans like us would have made many of us declare that there shouldn't have been a third.

Look up Coach K's early record. Or Wooden's. Or many other great, successful coaches.

That's one of the big things that has changed. There is zero patience now. Gotta win today!

I believe only won 4 games the year before so 8 was an improvement. Also, because freshmen could not play back then it took longer to turn a program around.

[willie warrior]

Grow to 6'5", develop a New York accent, and drive a Harley!

Also, be a bar room brawler, recruit NYC with the Midas touch, and have a son that can shoot the three. Playing in the NBA, being Irish-Italian, "owning Cousy" and being exceedingly brash would also help.

[hairy worthen]

Also, be a bar room brawler, recruit NYC with the Midas touch, and have a son that can shoot the three. Playing in the NBA, being Irish-Italian, "owning Cousy" and being exceedingly brash would also help.

Wait,  being able to recruit a 5 star big man isn't on your list?

[Lennys Tap]

Please explain how it isn't close

He won 6 games year one
10 games year two
12 games year three

I'd say quite close

Year 1: Crean 6-25  .193%   McGuire 8-18 .313%
Year 2: Crean 10-21 .323%  McGuire 14-12 .539%
Year 3: Crean 12-20 .375%. McGuire 21-9  .693%

Totals: Crean 28-66  .298%  McGuire 43-39. .524%

Quite close? In what universe? The one where the Houston Astro were "quite close" to the St Louis Cardinals last year?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Year 1: Crean 6-25  .193%   McGuire 8-18 .313%
Year 2: Crean 10-21 .323%  McGuire 14-12 .539%
Year 3: Crean 12-20 .375%. McGuire 21-9  .693%

Totals: Crean 28-66  .298%  McGuire 43-39. .524%

Quite close? In what universe? The one where the Houston Astro were "quite close" to the St Louis Cardinals last year?

Ahh, now I see what you are saying.  We interpreted the statement totally differently (and thus the comparison), but now I get where you are coming from.  I am coming from a totally different angle, nothing to do with Al.

I took it as if Buzz (in today's impatient world) were to win only 8 games and 14 games in his first two years, he may not be around for a third year....or it was something to that effect from Brew MU82.  I said, that's close to what TC did (6 and 10...actually worse than 8 and 14) at IU and he's still around.  My point was that I agreed that people are less patient and that's why he demanded a longer term deal to allow him to get to years 4 and 5.  So I wasn't comparing him to Al, I was comparing the situation that actually a guy at a big time program can have that kind of record in his first two years and still survive even in today's impatient world, but it requires an administration to bet in the long term with a lot of money and a long contract to protect the coach, show the commitment and keep the natives from jumping off a ledge.

[Sunbelt15]

He will never equal Al, but a championship will put him pretty close. Similar to Dean Smith and Roy Williams at UNC. Originators are rarely equalled.

[Lennys Tap]

brewcity

I actually think that the extreme pro Al group is pulling harder for Buzz. We saw what a legend can do to make a program and actually have experience to compare it with. Since the day Al left MU I have been pulling for the next Al and believe Buzz is closest to being there in long time. Cannot speak for all  the older guys, but I know the world has changed since March of 1977. Buzz has different challenges than Al did and it looks like he is passing them all with flying colors. IMO Buzz's quirkiness, ability to relate with city kids and shoot from the hip communication makes him a modern day Al to some extent.

Winning is big part of it for the Al group and that will not change. Making MU a brand again is even bigger to me. I want us to be an opposing team's biggest game and have other team's fans wanting to be beat us badly. Winning gives you a target, but us against the world mentality enhances that IMO.

Perfectly stated, Goose. We "old timers" who were lucky enough to experience the Al era (and all that's come since) know it will never quite be the same - too much competition, too much money spent by power conference teams who used to all but ignore basketball, etc. Even Al couldn't quite be the Al of old in today's environment. That said, most of us realize that Buzz is the first "It" guy MU has hired since Al and that those guys are extremely hard to find. Many think we'll be fine if Buzz were to leave. If fine is the TC era, I agree. But we're better than that now, and we're on the verge of being a top 15 program, something we haven't been since maybe 1980. It's a fun ride, one I want all my MU brethren who were too young for the first one to experience.

[Aughnanure]

A lot of people try to discount how good Duke was before Coach K. They were already one of the better programs in the country before him with the exception of one bad hire that didn't last long. If they don't belong on the list, neither does UCLA.

Not trying to discount them at all. But they didn't win their 1st championship until 1991, so they are a much more recent addition to the Blue Bloods if you want to continue expanding it. Michigan St won in 79, Louisville in 80 and 86 and now in 2013. I think then you have to start considering those two programs to add onto the list as well.  

I like keeping it at 5 more because those are the biggest programs in each of those 5 conferences.

[bilsu]

Patientce has to do with where the program was and where it is going. Al inherited a team that won 4 games, so he had a lot of room. Crean at Indiana inherited a team with practically no players, so he had a lot of room. If Crean now had back to back 19-12 seasons at Indiana like he did after Wade left MU he might very well get fired. Buzz would have been fired after his first season, if he had won only 8 games with the three amigos. The second most winningest coach at MU percentage wise was Hank Raymonds, but he was unapprecaited by many fans, because he was not as successful as McGuire. He would of been a hero, if he did that after the Dukiet disaster.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Not trying to discount them at all. But they didn't win their 1st championship until 1991, so they are a much more recent addition to the Blue Bloods if you want to continue expanding it. Michigan St won in 79, Louisville in 80 and 86 and now in 2013. I think then you have to start considering those two programs to add onto the list as well.  

I like keeping it at 5 more because those are the biggest programs in each of those 5 conferences.

I can't put MSU in there yet.  They have the same number of titles as Oklahoma State, San Francisco, Florida, NC State, Cincinnati, .  There additional Final Fours make them close, but not quite over the top IMO.  To me it is 6 schools, even though I include KU as one of them and there are other schools with 3 titles (Louisville, UCONN) that I don't put in that same group because KU has many more Final Four appearances and conference titles and have done it for decades.

UCLA
UK
IU
UNC
Duke
KU

On the cusp
Louisville, UCONN

[Goose]

Lenny

I agree with the younger fans enjoying this ride. Reading posts over the years and seeing younger fans favorite players or moments in threads it made me realize how lucky we were to be around when al was here.  I am hoping that in three years the younger fans are talking about statement players and games as best MU ball memory. Buzz us MU knocking at the door and big things are within reach.

[dgies9156]

http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/137426413.html?lc=Smart
I implore you to read this article.  George Thompson himself says nobody wanted to be the first to join a team in an area that hated blacks.  Not saying that Rupp was the most accepting person but he tried and nobody wanted to join. 

Are you kidding me? Adolph Rupp was a bigot, pure and simple. The first African American basketball player in the SEC was Perry Wallace. He played for Vanderbilt from 1966 to 1968 after being an incredible ballplayer at Nashville Pearl.

Rupp was the New York Yankees of the SEC. About the last team to integrate in the mid 1970s. Everybody else recruited African Americans in the SEC before Rupp did!

[Galway Eagle]

I can't put MSU in there yet.  They have the same number of titles as Oklahoma State, San Francisco, Florida, NC State, Cincinnati, .  There additional Final Fours make them close, but not quite over the top IMO.  To me it is 6 schools, even though I include KU as one of them and there are other schools with 3 titles (Louisville, UCONN) that I don't put in that same group because KU has many more Final Four appearances and conference titles and have done it for decades.

UCLA
UK
IU
UNC
Duke
KU

On the cusp
Louisville, UCONN

Plus KU is one of the three programs with the most wins

[bilsu]

Are you kidding me? Adolph Rupp was a bigot, pure and simple. The first African American basketball player in the SEC was Perry Wallace. He played for Vanderbilt from 1966 to 1968 after being an incredible ballplayer at Nashville Pearl.

Rupp was the New York Yankees of the SEC. About the last team to integrate in the mid 1970s. Everybody else recruited African Americans in the SEC before Rupp did!

The first African American to play for Rupp was a 7'1" center who was the same year as Chones. After his sophomore season ended (they lost to MU in the NCAA consolation game after MU lost to Ohio St.)he went to jail for rape. I can still remember wondering if he was actuaally guilty or set up by Kentucky racists who did not want to have blacks on their team. I visited the Univerity of Kentucky about 8 years ago. Right on the edge of campus is a historical site where slaves were auctioned off. Kentucky does have an amazing basketball museum adjacent to Rupp Arena.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Plus KU is one of the three programs with the most wins

Absolutely.  Especially in light of the early years when UCLA and others had a layup into the Elite 8.  The NCAAs are a crapshoot enough already, but KU and others have shown year in and year out with all those wins, etc to be one of the super  IMO.

[MuMark]

Kentucky also won NC under Pitino, Smith, and Cal. You are saying Al was a legend yet his record is not better then Cals/Pitino.

Roy Williams would be a legend at any school......

I think you are way off here

ps. How about he wins one before we talka bout 2? 

How many schools can brag of having had 2 absolutely legendary coaches?  There was Adolph Rupp and ???,  John Wooden followed by a parade of wooden Jons, Dean Smith followed by a bunch of Amateurs, Bobby Knight followed by a cheater and a guy who will never be a legend.  If Buzz consistently keeps MU in the tournament, in the top 20, in the National Media and in the NBA, he has a chance at being MU's second legend.  If he wins a couple championships, he cements it.  Let's hope he sticks around to do it.

[Sunbelt15]

Kentucky also won NC under Pitino, Smith, and Cal. You are saying Al was a legend yet his record is not better then Cals/Pitino.

Roy Williams would be a legend at any school......

I think you are way off here

ps. How about he wins one before we talka bout 2? 

+1000

[MU82]

Where did I say kind of? And in regards to being able to shape times and the like but instead sticking with the traditions that's where I draw the conservative comparison. 

You're right, you didn't actually say "kind of" so I shouldn't have put it in quotes. You only kind of suggested it.

[4everwarriors]

The first African American to play for Rupp was a 7'1" center who was the same year as Chones. After his sophomore season ended (they lost to MU in the NCAA consolation game after MU lost to Ohio St.)he went to jail for rape. I can still remember wondering if he was actuaally guilty or set up by Kentucky racists who did not want to have blacks on their team. I visited the Univerity of Kentucky about 8 years ago. Right on the edge of campus is a historical site where slaves were auctioned off. Kentucky does have an amazing basketball museum adjacent to Rupp Arena.

Talkin' 'bout Tom Payne, hey?