What would it take for Buzz to reach Al

[🏀]

Just for the 70s they have two less tournament appearances, same number of sweet 16s, three more elite 8s same final fours, 1 runner up 1 title.  Ill look at the end of the 60s but the more Adolph Rupp time you add the less promising it'll be.

There's also the part where Adolph Rupp was a complete bigot and racist that should not be celebrated, less have an arena named after him. There's that compared to Al as well.

[Lennys Tap]

Just for the 70s they have two less tournament appearances, same number of sweet 16s, three more elite 8s same final fours, 1 runner up 1 title.  Ill look at the end of the 60s but the more Adolph Rupp time you add the less promising it'll be.

Edit: yeah if you add in the 60s portion of Al's tenure vs Kentucky they get another sweet 16 another elite 8 and another runner up.  While we get an elite 8 and sweet 16

Kentucky's title in the 70's was in 1978, the year AFTER Al left. Kentucky's runner up in the 60's was in 66 in Al's second year.We were in a major rebuilding program (MU was 5-21 the year before Al arrived).

[ChicosBailBonds]

Last night around a bonfire me an some friends got into a little debate about whether buzz could ever get to or surpass Al's level.  And I was curious what everybody thought.  I mean obviously Al took a program that was reletively unknown and turned us into a powerhouse whereas Buzz took over in a different situation.  But I'm just curious what it would take in all of your minds.  

Go to two Final Fours, win a national title, be consistently in the top 10, have the second best winning percentage of any team in the country for a decade....for starters.

Right now, I'd settle for one Final Four and we go from there

[Shooter Flatch]

Yeah, and Bobby Knight took the job only to back out after the news leaked.

That was the Wisconsin job, before he went to Indiana.

[Lennys Tap]

That was the Wisconsin job, before he went to Indiana.

Correct.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Time + one Final Four....there is an inherent recency advantage as we creep toward the 40th anniversary of the championship and the 50th of the beginning.....

[brandx]

You have to add in the fact that Al refused to go to the tournament one year and went to the NIT instead as a protest.

[Galway Eagle]

There's also the part where Adolph Rupp was a complete bigot and racist that should not be celebrated, less have an arena named after him. There's that compared to Al as well.

As a person he was not a role model but I'm purely talking basketball which has absolutely nothing to do with his morals

[MU82]

That was the Wisconsin job, before he went to Indiana.

Beat me to it.

[Galway Eagle]

Kentucky's title in the 70's was in 1978, the year AFTER Al left. Kentucky's runner up in the 60's was in 66 in Al's second year.We were in a major rebuilding program (MU was 5-21 the year before Al arrived).

I understand the rebuilding project but that wasnt the question I was answering it was just Kentucky vs MU during Al's tenure.  Good pout about 1978 though I was only looking at my spreadsheet forgot to double check the year.  

[77ncaachamps]

Personality-wise, no way will he rival Al. Just appreciate Buzz for who he is.

Statistically, two NCAA titles and at least two decades of dominance.
It's more of an uneven playing field for MU now that it really relies on conference alignments to help keep them relevant to a degree. But the faithful MU following helps to offset that a bit.

Al did it for almost two decades. During the John Wooden years.

That's tough.

He'd have to do a JTII and Georgetown-like title and similar "dominance" (and public relevance).

[mileskishnish72]

Al was indeed Al, and completely unique. Buzz is also kind of unique. Here's hoping he has the continued success at MU that would make this a real point for discussion.

[brewcity77]

Buzz has to do three things to reach Al status.

1. Make Marquette part of the national basketball consciousness. We don't have to be top-5 every year, but we need mentioned alongside Michigan State, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, and Duke as an elite program.
2. Win a national championship. All the other accolades, the Final Fours and #1 rankings, would be great, but ultimately just window dressing. He needs to give Marquette that one moment where we are back on top again.
3. Retire at Marquette. He can't go on the coach somewhere else, whether with more success or less, and still be regarded in the same way as someone like Al.

[MUCam]

Buzz has to do three things to reach Al status.

1. Make Marquette part of the national basketball consciousness. We don't have to be top-5 every year, but we need mentioned alongside Michigan State, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, and Duke as an elite program.
2. Win a national championship. All the other accolades, the Final Fours and #1 rankings, would be great, but ultimately just window dressing. He needs to give Marquette that one moment where we are back on top again.
3. Retire at Marquette. He can't go on the coach somewhere else, whether with more success or less, and still be regarded in the same way as someone like Al.

That is a pretty fair assessment. Al can't be surpassed, but he can be reached. However, longevity with top level success are the only ways to get there.

Buzz has the personality and quirkiness to reach Al's plateau. But, his team's will have to perform on the Court. In the end, I think (1) retire at MU, and (2) win a National Championship are the keys.

[Aughnanure]

Buzz has to do three things to reach Al status.

1. Make Marquette part of the national basketball consciousness. We don't have to be top-5 every year, but we need mentioned alongside Michigan State, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, and Duke as an elite program.

Let's relax that a bit and just say "in the same breath" as Zona, Michigan St, Cuse, Ville, etc.

[Galway Eagle]

Ok let me put it like this do you think at Ville they say Pitino will never be Crum? Or at UNC they are saying Roy Williams will never reach Dean Smith?

[🏀]

As a person he was not a role model but I'm purely talking basketball which has absolutely nothing to do with his morals

I wouldn't say absolutely nothing, in fact the opposite until Texas Western forced his hand.

[Galway Eagle]

I wouldn't say absolutely nothing, in fact the opposite until Texas Western forced his hand.

First off it's known he was a racist, that movie though blew that wayyy out of proportion.  I could just call him more conservative in his views with trying to stick with tradition rather than something new (Of course being at Marquette/on this board I'd get killed for associating conservatism with that).  Next, tell me what any of those views have to do with his coaching?  The fact is he was a damn good coach and he had success in tremendously different eras of basketball which earned my respect purely from a basketball standpoint. 

[bilsu]

Al won 20+ games 11 straight years. Today's equivalent to 20 wins is 25 due to greater number of games played. I think Buzz needs to win 30+ games at least 3 times in the next 8 years to be even compared to McGuire, which would help get his 13 year winning percentage closer to Al's. I do think in Buzz's first 5 years MU has played a tougher schedule than it did under Al, which somewhat accounts for Buzz's 69% winning percentage vs Al's 79%.

[Atticus]

Let's relax that a bit and just say "in the same breath" as Zona, Michigan St, Cuse, Ville, etc.

And lets not forget about OSU, UF, and UConn...unless we passed them by with a couple championships that i missed.

[Dawson Rental]

Asking this question shows a lack of understanding about what Al accomplished at Marquette as well as a lack of understanding about how college basketball has evolved.

Buzz will never reach Al because in the current collegiate basketball world no one could.  The money has gotten so much bigger that the competition has grown several times more intense.  Xavier was a gimme game.  Georgetown was pathetic.  Florida and Florida State were patsies.

The shoe companies weren't using AAU clubs to steer players to colleges that wore their shoes.  Marquette had the coolest uniforms - two of which were banned by the NCAA during Al's tenure.

Everything that Al accomplished he accomplished in 13 years.  Buzz is entering year six.  By year six, Al and Marquette were one of the few 800 pound gorillas in the recruiting world.  By this time in Diamond Stone's recruitment, it would be down to Marquette and UCLA or maybe North Carolina.  But most would figure that Stone was a lock to join Kevon Looney at Marquette.  Duane Wilson would still be thanking his lucky stars that Al found him a spot on the roster.

While Buzz inherited an NCAA team, MU was 5-21 the year before Al arrived as Lenny's Tap points out.  Al's first year, MU went 8-18, the next year they were 14-12, then as bislu points out Al won 20+ games 11 straight years.  Bilsu beat me to the punch at pointing out the the 10 point advantage Al has over Buzz in win % in spite of the easier start that Buzz had.

Probably the toughest thing to comprehend by someone who was not a Marquette fan during the McGuire era was McGuire's incredible force of personality.  People (myself included), love Buzz's folksy persona.  Compared to Al, Buzz is a complete piker.  Go on Amazon.com and search Al McGuire.  The first four listings will be the four books written about Al.  One of which is wholly devoted to quotes by the man himself.  He was arguably the most popular college basketball color commentator ever.  He never had to worry about pissing the AD off because he was the AD.  One of his better known quotes was something like: "Most think that basketball teams reflect the personality of their coach, my teams are arrogant and obnoxious."   Most of us would argue with AL about him being arrogant.  Sure, he didn't back down from anyone.  When he felt that the NCAA screwed MU with the regional they put us in, he simply took the team to the NIT and won.  (The NIT at that time was far more than the consolation prize for those who missed the NCAA).  The NCAA then felt the need to pass a rule preventing that from happening again.  The last few years at MU when Al would try to talk to a ref, inevitability the crowd would chant; "Give 'em hell, Al"  When he left coaching, the native New Yorker stayed in Milwaukee, and started Al's run.  He continued to be the best possible ambassador for MU and Milwaukee until his death.

He cried without shame on the bench at the end of the NCAA championship game for Christsakes!  When it was announced that his illness was terminal, he had to hire an appointments secretary to handle all the visit requests he received in the last months of his life.

Keep dreaming kid, you missed Al, and the likes of him ain't coming along again for a very, very long time.

Oh, and then there was that play that his broadcasting partner, another legend, Dick Emberg felt that he had to write about Al.

[Dawson Rental]

oops! nm

[Galway Eagle]

Asking this question shows a lack of understanding about what Al accomplished at Marquette as well as a lack of understanding about how college basketball has evolved.

Keep dreaming kid, you missed Al, and the likes of him ain't coming along again for a very, very long time.

I think you entirely missed the point of why I asked this or to use your way of speaking writing this response shows a lack of understanding about what I was asking in this thread.  I was trying to include everyone in a bonfire conversation and hear the perspectives of others, wasn't implying I think Buzz could surpass him or anything.  Let's say Buzz reaches all the same tournament stats as Al (not very fair considering a sweet 16 is harder now) I was curious if people would ever see like a Buzz dancing on WVU's court statue in the lobby of the Al Mcguire center or something. 

[brewcity77]

Let's relax that a bit and just say "in the same breath" as Zona, Michigan St, Cuse, Ville, etc.

Are you kidding? We aren't talking about what it would take for Buzz to be regarded as a good or successful coach. We are talking about him being on the same level as Al McGuire, who was one of the greats of his generation. Al is the be-all end-all of Marquette coaching and the only MU coach that would get any legitimate consideration to be on the all-time college basketball Mount Rushmore. For Buzz to get to that level, which is the discussion at hand, I feel he needs to get Marquette to the point where we are regarded as one of the 5-10 best programs in the country for an extended period of time.

When Al was here, the list was UCLA, Marquette, Kentucky, and a small handful of other schools. For Buzz to match that, he needs us to be near the top of that small handful, not in the "also receiving votes" category.

[Dawson Rental]

I think you entirely missed the point of why I asked this or to use your way of speaking writing this response shows a lack of understanding about what I was asking in this thread.  I was trying to include everyone in a bonfire conversation and hear the perspectives of others, wasn't implying I think Buzz could surpass him or anything.  Let's say Buzz reaches all the same tournament stats as Al (not very fair considering a sweet 16 is harder now) I was curious if people would ever see like a Buzz dancing on WVU's court statue in the lobby of the Al Mcguire center or something. 

But that was my crotchety old man around a bonfire response!