Best Backcourt/ Frontcourt in the new BEast

[bilsu]

There is absolutely no comparison to Tony Miller and Wilson, and using him as an example is just not right. Everybody can have their opinion. Miller is MU's all time assist leader--by far--and will likely never be matched. He also was a great ball handler and good defender. Wilson is at best marginal. He is likely a good kid, plays hard and good D, and so far has made few mistakes, but to say that because Miller was not a scorer, that will be OK to play Wilson does not make much sense.

By the way, it is fun to look at some of the PG's MU has had in its history:
Butch Lee, Travis Diener, Cordell Henry, Lloyd Walton, Mandy Johnson, Sam Worthen, Dick Nixon(way back), Marcus Washington, Dean Meminger (actually played either G), Tony Miller, Rosey (a 2G in a PG body), Tony Smith, etc. I am sure I have forgotten a couple in there, but there have been some definite studs. And who can ever forget Artie Green, who could sky like he was a Center?
Probably my two favorites would be Mandy Johnson (a steal machine), and Worthen.

Did Butch Lee play point guard? If my memory is correct, he played two years with Walton at the point and two years with Boylan at the point. Besides that I was not saying Derrick was anywhere near Miller. What I was saying is it is more important that the point guard be a distributor than it is to be a scorer and that Derrik is not a distributor. That is also the problem I see with Duane, who is a scorer first and not a distributor. Duane is closer to Dwight Buyckes than Tony Miller. Our only hope for a true distributor at point is Dawson and I have no idea what his game is like.

[willie warrior]

Did Butch Lee play point guard? If my memory is correct, he played two years with Walton at the point and two years with Boylan at the point.

You could be right--it was a long time ago. Lee definitely did much of the ball handling and had a PG body.

[keefe]

You could be right--it was a long time ago. Lee definitely did much of the ball handling and had a PG body.

Lee never played PG. And he shouldn't have. Walton and Boylan were far better at the one while Lee was far better at the two.

[77ncaachamps]

Duane will spell Derrick for Offense much like DG did for Otule

[willie warrior]

Lee never played PG. And he shouldn't have. Walton and Boylan were far better at the one while Lee was far better at the two.

Hmmmm....From the Golden Eagle Athletics site: Lee was "the starting point guard on the 1977 NCAA title team."
http://www.gomarquette.com/genrel/081108aab.html

[Goose]

Butch Lee was not the PG in 1977. The Golden Eagle web site is wrong.

[boyonthedock]

I'm sorry, but the cards says Moops.

[Lennys Tap]

Hmmmm....From the Golden Eagle Athletics site: Lee was "the starting point guard on the 1977 NCAA title team."
http://www.gomarquette.com/genrel/081108aab.html

Hmmmm...don't believe everything that you read, Willie - Jim Boylan was the starting point guard on the 1977 NCAA title team. Butch played the 2 guard.

[keefe]

Hmmmm....From the Golden Eagle Athletics site: Lee was "the starting point guard on the 1977 NCAA title team."
http://www.gomarquette.com/genrel/081108aab.html

[willie warrior]

Hmmmm...don't believe everything that you read, Willie - Jim Boylan was the starting point guard on the 1977 NCAA title team. Butch played the 2 guard.

Never said he was not---said that Lee did much of the ball handling.

By the way, if I follow your advice about not believing everything I read, maybe I should not believe what you posted. Ah, life is full of disinformation. Nobody should believe anything they read, because who really knows? For sure not the MU website article.

[MU82]

Derrick has not proven that he can break down a defense, has not proven that he can distribute the ball to a teammate in scoring position, has not proven that he can lead an offense, has not proven that he has great court vision when handling the ball and has not proven that he can make his teammates better.

I didn't even mention shooting or scoring, which would seem his real offensive weakness.

As many have said, players do improve when given the chance, so I'm very curious to see what Derrick will do when he is handed the keys to the MU ignition.

I disagree with the premise that a Final Four-caliber team doesn't need a PG with scoring ability. He doesn't have to score even 10 a game, but he does have to be a threat to occasionally take it to the rim himself, to set up his teammates and to hit the occasional wide-open jumper. Not to mention make FTs, especially in crunch time.

Junior provided the absolute minimum level of skills a true contender needs. As much as I liked and defended Junior, that's setting the bar pretty low. We can and should do better. Hopefully, Duane Wilson will. Heck, maybe even Derrick Wilson will when given 25 mins a game.

It is by far the most important question that must be answered about next year's team. By far.

[real chili 83]

Derrick has not proven that he can break down a defense, has not proven that he can distribute the ball to a teammate in scoring position, has not proven that he can lead an offense, has not proven that he has great court vision when handling the ball and has not proven that he can make his teammates better.

I didn't even mention shooting or scoring, which would seem his real offensive weakness.

As many have said, players do improve when given the chance, so I'm very curious to see what Derrick will do when he is handed the keys to the MU ignition.

I disagree with the premise that a Final Four-caliber team doesn't need a PG with scoring ability. He doesn't have to score even 10 a game, but he does have to be a threat to occasionally take it to the rim himself, to set up his teammates and to hit the occasional wide-open jumper. Not to mention make FTs, especially in crunch time.

Junior provided the absolute minimum level of skills a true contender needs. As much as I liked and defended Junior, that's setting the bar pretty low. We can and should do better. Hopefully, Duane Wilson will. Heck, maybe even Derrick Wilson will when given 25 mins a game.

It is by far the most important question that must be answered about next year's team. By far.

It's only one game, but against UW when he started.....

He will flourish.  Book it.

[Lennys Tap]

By the way, if I follow your advice about not believing everything I read, maybe I should not believe what you posted. Ah, life is full of disinformation. Nobody should believe anything they read, because who really knows? For sure not the MU website article.

Much of what is written here (by me and others) is opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree. Sometimes, however, we deal in facts, and the fact is that Butch was never the starting point guard at Marquette - in 1977 or any other year.

[MU82]

It's only one game, but against UW when he started.....

He will flourish.  Book it.

I hope he flourishes a little better than he did in his "career game" against Wisconsin, when he had 0 points, 0 assists and 0 steals in 20 minutes.

He also had 0 turnovers and did a nice job defending Jordan Taylor, and deserves kudos for both of those things, but I'm pretty sure we all agree that Marquette needs a little more (translation: a lot more) from its starting PG to contend for anything that matters.

Again, we'll see if Derrick is the PG who can provide that.

[real chili 83]

I hope he flourishes a little better than he did in his "career game" against Wisconsin, when he had 0 points, 0 assists and 0 steals in 20 minutes.

He also had 0 turnovers and did a nice job defending Jordan Taylor, and deserves kudos for both of those things, but I'm pretty sure we all agree that Marquette needs a little more (translation: a lot more) from its starting PG to contend for anything that matters.

Again, we'll see if Derrick is the PG who can provide that.

Can't argue your stats....duh 

I was able to get some time with Derrick this spring.  He's got his head on straight.  He understands his role as a leader and team captain. 

On top of that, if it's good enough for Brent, it's good enough....

[keefe]

Much of what is written here (by me and others) is opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree. Sometimes, however, we deal in facts, and the fact is that Butch was never the starting point guard at Marquette - in 1977 or any other year.

Lenny,

Maybe our recall is off? Or, we ingested so many chemicals back then we have no idea what transpired? It was the '70's after all...

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

IMHO

Backcourts:
1. Providence (Cotton/Dunn)
2. Villanova (Arcidiacono/Hilliard)
3. Xavier (Davis/Christon)
4. Georgetown (Starks/Smith-Rivera)
5. St. John's (Green IV/Harrison)
6. Creighton (Chatman/Manigat)
7. DePaul (McKinney/Young)
8. Seton Hall (Maayan/Edwin)
9. Marquette (Wilsons/Johnson)
10. Butler (Barlow/Dunham)

Frontcourts:
1. Georgetown (Trawick/Whittington/Lubick)
2. Marquette (J Wilson/McKay/Oxtule)
3. St. John's (Pointer/Sampson/Obekpa)
4. Creighton (Wragge/McDermott/Artino)
5. Villanova (Bell/Pinkston/Ochefu)
6. Providence (Fortune/Henton/Batts)
7. Seton Hall (Oliver/Auda/Teague)
8. Butler (Jones/Marshall/Woods)
9. Xavier (Martin/Philmore/Stainbrook)
10. Depaul (Crockett/Melvin/Rychbosch?)

[The Equalizer]

131.5 rating or not he averaged 5.6 pts per game, mostly on free throws (44% of his points), most of his other points were on put-backs from offensive rebounds (yielding a high rating).  His points came from the line and on put-backs, because as noted he was not expected to shoot or create for himself it wasn't his role (0% 3's).

Compare that to Juan Anderson, 3 pts per game.  Difference between Juan and JFB, JFB scored 1.5 pts more per game from the line, the bulk of the difference in scoring and making JFB have a higher efficiency rating.

All I can say is go back and look at the play-by-plays and per-game status.  Most games Butler didn't have more than 2 offensive boards, fewer than half resulted in putback attempts, and not every shot went in.  He had plenty of scoring from the field and on FTs that didn't happen after a put-back.

I think you are taking one game--the last game of the regular season against Syracuse--out of context and projecting Butler's performance to the entire season. Yes, Butler had a ton of putbacks in that one game--but that wasn't representative of his season. Take a look at the play-by-plays for games like the BET game against Villanova or the NCAA game against Missouri to name two high profile games. 

Butlers soph 131.5 rating was legit and indicative of what we could expect down the road. Meanwhile, Derrick Wilson's 88.5 ORtg is a reflecton of his 27.3 FG% (12.5% on treys), and 45.0 FT%.   

Sorry, but the statment I took offense with--that Wilson is just as much of an unknown as Butler--just doesn't fit with the facts.



 

[Dawson Rental]

Much of what is written here (by me and others) is opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree. Sometimes, however, we deal in facts, and the fact is that Butch was never the starting point guard at Marquette - in 1977 or any other year.

I was in the stands for every home game in 1976-77 - I suspect Lenny's and Goose were too - and I saw every away game that was on TV.  Butch Lee was not the point guard, nor did he do "the majority" of the ball handling, regardless of what MU's sports information director was told in 2008.

[Dawson Rental]

Lenny,

Maybe our recall is off? Or, we ingested so many chemicals back then we have no idea what transpired? It was the '70's after all...

Your recall is fine.  Boylan was brought in as a transfer so he could take over the point guard position from Walton after Lloyd graduated. Boylan's redshirt transfer year was Walton's senior year.

[Skatastrophy]

DeWill will get the benefit of the doubt as an upperclassman. He will start the majority of the season (imo).

[keefe]

Your recall is fine.  Boylan was brought in as a transfer so he could take over the point guard position from Walton after Lloyd graduated. Boylan's redshirt transfer year was Walton's senior year.

Murray

I was just funnin' the old hippie. My recall is crystal clear with regard to Alfred Lee. He played the 2 while Lucky Lloyd and Jimmy Boylan handled the 1. Now, Butch did play point with a gal named Gail.