Wade vs. Butler game 2

[MUSF]

1.)  I don't live in Illinois...  I have literally heard zero negative things in the national media about the Bulls before tonight (besides come back now Derrick stories).  Can you cite anything?

2.) Not which post(s) you are talking about, but that's fine.  I do like them and respect the way they play.  At full strength I think that they would have a great shot at a title.  Even given that, I do try to back up my points if I am trying to make one and not just assert things.

3.)  That's cool.  I LOVE seeing upsets.  I don't think the Heat's elimination would make the Finals less exciting.  Maybe David Stern wouldn't like it, but Chicago or Indiana against Memphis would actually be great hoops with both teams interior defense.  Really any matchup that does not include the Knicks would be exciting.

Also, the Bulls are in no way dirtier than the Heat.  I figured that is what you were suggesting.  There really aren't any dirty teams in my opinion.  When the Bulls beat the Heat it is because of their rebounding and defense.  Hinrich had that one foul on James in the regular season which was not that bad and James gave Boozer a shot back.  Birdman was roughing people up tonight.  Maybe there is evidence that the Bulls are somehow playing dirty, but I think you will find that the evidence is just not there.   

1. Sorry for the Chicago assumption. I shouldn't have gone there. That said, in the post I was responding to, you said that I was literally the first person you have heard that doesn't appreciate the way the Bulls are winning. You didn't specify national media. There are plenty of people that share my thoughts, as demonstrated by some of the other posts in this thread. I have also heard similar sentiments in the media, though it is probably a minority opinion. I am not going to go searching for examples, because "winning" this argument isn't that important to me.

2. I seem to remember you posting in previous threads about the Bulls and/or the Heat. Weren't you one of those who was bothered that Wade and/or Lebron didn't go to Chicago? Again, not going to go looking for old posts, so if I am mistaken, my bad. Your posts here make you sound like a pretty hardcore Bulls fan.

3. I disagree. I think the playoffs would be less exciting if the Heat get eliminated. I certainly think that the quality of play in future series would be significantly reduced, which would be disappointing IMO.

I don't think the Bulls are a "dirty" team necessarily, but I don't think you can deny that their formula for success against the Heat relies heavily on physical play and hard fouls to make up for their inferior talent. To me, that is not good for the sport, and I don't want to see it rewarded.

[HoopsMalone]

1. Sorry for the Chicago assumption. I shouldn't have gone there. That said, in the post I was responding to, you said that I was literally the first person you have heard that doesn't appreciate the way the Bulls are winning. You didn't specify national media. There are plenty of people that share my thoughts, as demonstrated by some of the other posts in this thread. I have also heard similar sentiments in the media, though it is probably a minority opinion. I am not going to go searching for examples, because "winning" this argument isn't that important to me.

2. I seem to remember you posting in previous threads about the Bulls and/or the Heat. Weren't you one of those who was bothered that Wade and/or Lebron didn't go to Chicago? Again, not going to go looking for old posts, so if I am mistaken, my bad. Your posts here make you sound like a pretty hardcore Bulls fan.

3. I disagree. I think the playoffs would be less exciting if the Heat get eliminated. I certainly think that the quality of play in future series would be significantly reduced, which would be disappointing IMO.

I don't think the Bulls are a "dirty" team necessarily, but I don't think you can deny that their formula for success against the Heat relies heavily on physical play and hard fouls to make up for their inferior talent. To me, that is not good for the sport, and I don't want to see it rewarded.

1.  You still are the first person who does not appreciate the way the Bulls are winning.  The national media is just the only base I have.  Their third string PG won them a playoff series against a team that starts four current or former all-stars, and then they won game 1 against the champs.  I just don't see where the negatives are regardless of who you are rooting for. And JFB seems to have figured it out in this span.

I'm not saying that the Bulls are universally loved by any means.  The only negatives I hear in the media are people saying Thibs plays his players too many minutes and D Rose needs to find some courage.  I was not suggesting that they are infallible.  They are pretty legitimately media favorites right now along with the Warriors.  JFB is benefitting big time from this.

2.  I was surprised with how 2010 played out.  Not sure if I posted much on here, but may have.  I did wish Wade/James came to Chicago.  I just don't think that reflects any misuse of facts or over-ther-top bias. 

3.  Fair enough.  I think Miami would be fun to watch, maybe still the most entertaining.  Anyone but the Knicks, which I hate to say because I love watching Novak still.

The Bulls success does rely on tough, physical play relative to this era.  There is just not a lot of dirty play period, so I don't think any team's toughness or physicality really.

The Heat should take this in 5, maybe 6 is Carlos Boozer makes a shot in one of these games.  Marquette alums win either way.  I'd love to see Deng come back to guard LBJ so Jimmy and Wade can go at each other. 

[GGGG]

What do you honestly do if you are Brooklyn now?  You couldn't beat the Bulls third string and you now bring back aging stars on big contracts for the next few years. 

Well, the basic problem is their new owner is like the Jerry Jones of the NBA.  And they extended their GM.  What they need to do is find a decent coach to start with.

[tower912]

Yes, and most people loved the Isiah-Worm-Laimbeer Pistons.

The Bad Boys are my favorite NBA team of all time.   Even the 2004 Pistons don't stand up.   Should have been 3 straight.   Still ticked about the phantom foul on Kareem by Laimbeer.   Even more ticked about Rodman shooting the only pull-up jumper of his career.  On a fast break with an open lane.      But I digress.   That team was the forerunner of 'switchables' and really set the bar for a completely interchangeable rotation.    As well as team defense.   In their heyday, I would sit with my friends in a bar and we would make bets about how few points they would give up in the 4th quarter.  It would be tight through 3 and they would apply a stranglehold in the 4th.    A joy to watch. 

[NavinRJohnson]

I am, and have no problem admitting it.  Though I don't care about the NBA and won't be watching, but I would like to see Miami win.

Same here. If not for LeBron and the Heat, I might not even know the NBA exists. I still honestly don't know what is not to like about the Heat, and LBj specifically.

[willie warrior]

It is good to see a few support the Heat, who many hate. The BS about the Heat/Wade being the worse whiners in the league is a crock. Last night's game was clear evidence as the Bulls were flooding the floor with whining. It is part of the game and it is up to the league and refs to clean it up if it is a problem. Cleaning it up would be difficult unless it became a zero tolerance policy, and then you would have half a season of slow games with tons of FT's until that message was received by all.

At any rate, I expect the next game to be very closely called. Likely the Bulls will come out very aggresively and the mugging will then ensue. Hopefully, it will be good theatre.

[MerrittsMustache]

Me, and anyone who is a fan of great basketball. What the Bulls have to do to win this series is the opposite of great basketball.

In other words, you weren't a fan of the 2012-13 Marquette basketball team's style of play.

[Lennys Tap]

In other words, you weren't a fan of the 2012-13 Marquette basketball team's style of play.

Exactly. He loved UCLA in the Wooden era, Indiana in 75-76 and Kentucky in 2011-12. HATED it when Villanova upset Georgetown and Jimmy V took down Houston.

[GGGG]

In other words, you weren't a fan of the 2012-13 Marquette basketball team's style of play.

I wouldn't have watched them much if they weren't my team.

[NavinRJohnson]

Exactly. He loved UCLA in the Wooden era, Indiana in 75-76 and Kentucky in 2011-12. HATED it when Villanova upset Georgetown and Jimmy V took down Houston.

So if that is in fact true, what's wrong with that?

[GGGG]

Exactly. He loved UCLA in the Wooden era, Indiana in 75-76 and Kentucky in 2011-12. HATED it when Villanova upset Georgetown and Jimmy V took down Houston.

I was rooting for Houston against NC State. 

[NavinRJohnson]

I was rooting for Houston against NC State. 

As was I, and im sure many many others. Phi slamma jamma was a thing.

[Lennys Tap]

So if that is in fact true, what's wrong with that?

There's nothing WRONG with always rooting for Goliath. I just think most people without a horse in the race root for David. Whenever I've been at an NCAA tournament game the fans of the two teams not playing have sided with the underdog, and the bigger the underdog the more enthusiastic their support.

[Sunbelt15]

People are loving the Bulls because they are the underdog and play hard.  But they beat a more talented, and disinterested bunch in the Nets...that was hardly a good basketball series.

A Heat v. anyone out of the west is the Finals series I am rooting for.

They need to play hard and stop the unnecessary physical play only when they play the Heat. It may win them a game, but it will not win them the series. All the physical play did was wake the sleeping giant. Bye-bye Bulls!

[MUSF]

There's nothing WRONG with always rooting for Goliath. I just think most people without a horse in the race root for David. Whenever I've been at an NCAA tournament game the fans of the two teams not playing have sided with the underdog, and the bigger the underdog the more enthusiastic their support.

Until two underdogs end up playing each other, then nobody cares. We like some upsets, but most don't want to see the results of several upsets.

BTW, I am not anti-underdog. I am anti-underdog when their style is contingent upon something other than good quality basketball. That is what I see in the Bulls v. Heat series. If the Heat face Golden State in the finals and lose because GS runs up and down the floor and shoots lights out, then so be it. I would root for that.

[MerrittsMustache]

Until two underdogs end up playing each other, then nobody cares. We like some upsets, but most don't want to see the results of several upsets.

BTW, I am not anti-underdog. I am anti-underdog when their style is contingent upon something other than good quality basketball. That is what I see in the Bulls v. Heat series. If the Heat face Golden State in the finals and lose because GS runs up and down the floor and shoots lights out, then so be it. I would root for that.

So, scoring a lot of points is "good quality basketball" but playing tough, physical defense is not?

[MUSF]

So, scoring a lot of points is "good quality basketball" but playing tough, physical defense is not?

Yup. That ”tough, physical defense” you are touting is really alot of clutching and grabbing, and hard fouls. That isn't good defense or good bball IMO.

[MUfan12]

Yup. That ”tough, physical defense” you are touting is really alot of clutching and grabbing, and hard fouls. That isn't good defense or good bball IMO.

Agreed. I loved the competitiveness of the old Big East, but by the end it became hardwood rugby. It can be tough to watch at times.

[MU82]

Yup. That ”tough, physical defense” you are touting is really alot of clutching and grabbing, and hard fouls. That isn't good defense or good bball IMO.

Jimmy grabbing LeBron around the neck, Belinelli throttling Wade with no attempt at the ball and Anderson body-checking Robinson 35 feet from the basket are not examples "tough, physical defense." It is thuggery, it is boring and it is not what basketball is supposed to be.

[Stringer Bellenson]

Jeez, did you guys grow up playing soccer in France or were you all born in 1997 and never saw what an actual "hard fould" is. 

[Stringer Bellenson]

Sorry.  "Hard foul"

[MUSF]

Grew up playing and watching plenty of Football. If u want to see guys get beat up, watch a Bears v Dolphins game.

[Aughnanure]

So, scoring a lot of points is "good quality basketball" but playing tough, physical defense is not?

I don't disagree completely, but there is a fine line between "tough, physical" D and getting unnecessarily physical. This isn't football, and thanks god it's not. You're not supposed to be able to play D with your hands, and the game has slowed allowed that to happen.

[Stringer Bellenson]

Grew up playing and watching plenty of Football. If u want to see guys get beat up, watch a Bears v Dolphins game.

To each their own.  Personally, as a child of the 90s, I don't think quality basketball and physical play are mutually exclusive.  The NBA's rise as a global brand was built off of intense, physical basketball that got personal during the play-offs, and I guess I long for those days.  I'd love to see a freak like Lebron driving the lane like MJ or Isiah Thomas used to, knowing damn well a hit is coming from Patrick Ewing, Rodman, Malone, Alonzo Mourning, Barkley, Anthony Mason, Reggie Miller...  Or getting assaulted the way MJ and Shaq did, yet still making it look pretty or easy.

As a Heat fan didn't you enjoy a Pat Reilly coached team's physical style?  Those Heat-Knicks games were great, or even Heat-Bulls in the early rounds of the play-offs.

Either way, I know times have changed, but I thought the refs were out of control last game, not the players.   It's the play-offs.

[BrewCity83]

There's nothing WRONG with always rooting for Goliath. I just think most people without a horse in the race root for David. Whenever I've been at an NCAA tournament game the fans of the two teams not playing have sided with the underdog, and the bigger the underdog the more enthusiastic their support.

In the NCAA's though, many of the "neutral" observers for a given game are fans of one of the teams that will play the winner of the game that they're watching, so they naturally root for the underdog so that their team gets an easier opponent in the next round. That's why they get so into it (besides the natural pulling for David thing).