2013 MLB Thread

[MerrittsMustache]

I have another question for everyone so up in arms about this that has always evaded me about the whole PED discussion...guys like Gaylord Perry, The Neikros, Don Sutton, etc. are actually celebrated in the annals of baseball lore for their ability to scuff the ball, use Vaseline, etc. They sit comfortably in the Hall of Fame, and their cheating is considered little more than a colorful baseball anectdote. How is this any different?

They were pitchers and many fans associated steroids/PED use with bulking up and hitting HRs. Pitchers gaining 30-40 extra pounds of muscle wasn't really thought of as a way to succeed.

It was a different era and their antics were somewhat comical and many viewed it merely as gamesmanship.

Most importantly, they didn't break any hallowed records. Steroids and PEDs were in baseball before the McGwire/Sosa HR race in 1998 but they didn't become a hot topic until players started shattering HR records. Sure, it was in the back of people's minds with Brady Anderson, Albert Belle, Ken Caminiti, the early 90s Rangers, etc but no one was really getting all that close to Maris' 61 or Aaron's 755 so it was all in good fun. From 1928-1997, only one player hit 60+ HR in a season. From 1998-2001, it was done 6 times. Obviously that raised some red flags and then when a guy in the twilight of his career starting hitting HRs at a record pace and getting within shouting distance of 755, the outrage really began.

[🏀]

I have another question for everyone so up in arms about this that has always evaded me about the whole PED discussion...guys like Gaylord Perry, The Neikros, Don Sutton, etc. are actually celebrated in the annals of baseball lore for their ability to scuff the ball, use Vaseline, etc. They sit comfortably in the Hall of Fame, and their cheating is considered little more than a colorful baseball anectdote. How is this any different?

I think it's different because they aren't injecting poisons into their bodies to improve thus encouraging young baseball players to follow suit. There's no health issue with vaseline.

[NavinRJohnson]

It's not really different, it's cheating.

But, realistically I don't know if people cared that much because these guys were never obliterating records.

Once all of the records started to fall, then the public outrage began with PEDs, and continues today.

I think you actually just helped clarify the point I was trying to make earlier about the differences between the Bonds/McGuire era and the Braun/Cabrera era. I don't see today's PED user obliterating records, and in fact the discussion has very much changed more recently to it being more about them pressuring young players to feel that they have to do it to compete, or that the guys using are taking jobs from the guys that aren't. If it truly is the latter, then I think the Gaylord Perry comparison is extremely relevant and exposes incredible hypocrisy on the part of many people.

I think you are right that is why people care(ed) or claim to care. I guess I just don't think that's the case anymore, and why I don't much care.

[MerrittsMustache]

I think you actually just helped clarify the point I was trying to make earlier about the differences between the Bonds/McGuire era and the Braun/Cabrera era. I don't see today's PED user obliterating records, and in fact the discussion has very much changed more recently to it being more about them pressuring young players to feel that they have to do it to compete, or that the guys using are taking jobs from the guys that aren't. If it truly is the latter, then I think the Gaylord Perry comparison is extremely relevant and exposes incredible hypocrisy on the part of many people.

I think you are right that is why people care(ed) or claim to care. I guess I just don't think that's the case anymore, and why I don't much care.

The PED door has already been opened. If a guy is breaking records or just trying to get over the hump as a so-called quadruple-A player, there's no going back now.

[jesmu84]

"#MLBMath Word Problem: Ryan Braun cheated & got a contract for $105 Million. He got caught & lost $3.25 Million. How much does he care?"

Not to mention that's only going to encourage others to do the same thing.

[damuts222]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/la-sp-sn-ryan-braun-brewers-20130729,0,7175634.story

$10 voucher to August Milwaukee Brewers games for food/merchandise. 



WE'RE SORRY

[wadesworld]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/la-sp-sn-ryan-braun-brewers-20130729,0,7175634.story

$10 voucher to August Milwaukee Brewers games for food/merchandise. 



WE'RE SORRY

Better than not doing anything about it.  Plus, it's not like they're spending money they weren't expecting to.  Ryan Braun was scheduled to make over $3 million during the time he is suspended.  The Brewers are expecting to give just over $3 million in vouchers.

[Otule's Glass Eye]

Terribly boring trade deadline.

[tower912]

I'm pleased with the trades Detroit did.  With Peralta likely gone for 50 games and a UFA at the end of this season, the Tigers got their shortstop of right now and for the next few years.    Peralta is very steady and reliable at short, but having two infielders with limited range next to each other does not help guys like Porcello or Pfister.     They gave up a reliever with a great arm but one who seems to lack the confidence and command necessary to pitch in the majors.   Perhaps a change of scenery will help him.    Having Avisail Garcia end up with the White Sox is the only real downside.   I think that kid is going to be a solid major leaguer, and I am not looking forward to facing him 18 times a year.

[tower912]

Dempster should have been run.    That was bush league.    He threw the first one behind ARod, the next two in, and then drilled him on 3-0.    The ump warned the benches but didn't toss Dempster.    Girardi justifiably lost his mind.    So egregiously wrong, it made me a Yankee fan for the night.   

[buckchuckler]

Dempster should have been run.    That was bush league.    He threw the first one behind ARod, the next two in, and then drilled him on 3-0.    The ump warned the benches but didn't toss Dempster.    Girardi justifiably lost his mind.    So egregiously wrong, it made me a Yankee fan for the night.   

Haha.  Tough to argue with.  Arod made his bed though.  It is tough to feel for him.  He may get hit a few times more than normal.  But seriously, if you can't hit him on the first try, give it up. 

[jesmu84]

http://m.espn.go.com/mlb/story?storyId=9579944

So is Braun gonna get plunked a couple times next season?

And seriously... Calling the handler/delivery guy an anti-semite? Jeez

[MU B2002]

Haha.  Tough to argue with.  Arod made his bed though.  It is tough to feel for him.  He may get hit a few times more than normal.  But seriously, if you can't hit him on the first try, give it up. 

Supposedly he plunked him because Arod snubbed him at a charity event. Not because of PEDs/snitching.
I hate both of these teams but that was a "clown move bro."


It is curious that Arod's pitcher didn't retaliate.

[buckchuckler]

Supposedly he plunked him because Arod snubbed him at a charity event. Not because of PEDs/snitching.
I hate both of these teams but that was a "clown move bro."


It is curious that Arod's pitcher didn't retaliate.

Not really.  The benches were warned.  If he would have hit someone he'd have been thrown out.   

[MU B2002]

Not really.  The benches were warned.  If he would have hit someone he'd have been thrown out.   

Boston pitchers hit 3 more batters.  Were they tossed?

[buckchuckler]

Boston pitchers hit 3 more batters.  Were they tossed?

No but they could have been.  Certainly not worth the risk for CC.  I thought Girardi more than stood up for Arod. 

[mu-rara]

The PED door has already been opened. If a guy is breaking records or just trying to get over the hump as a so-called quadruple-A player, there's no going back now.

What is your stance on Sammy Soser (can't remember who pronounced it that way)?

[MU B2002]

  I thought Girardi more than stood up for Arod. 

Probably right.  And I have now discussed those 2 teams far more than I care to.


Anybody see Strasburg get tossed.  That was an odd one.

[Lennys Tap]

What is your stance on Sammy Soser (can't remember who pronounced it that way)?

Sosa was a douche and a crummy teammate - similar to ARod. But this guy Braun, with his "the sample collector's an anti-semetic Cub fan defense takes the cake as lamest cheater ever.

[GGGG]

Sosa was a douche and a crummy teammate - similar to ARod. But this guy Braun, with his "the sample collector's an anti-semetic Cub fan defense takes the cake as lamest cheater ever.

+1.  Pathetic.

[mu-rara]

Sosa was a douche and a crummy teammate - similar to ARod. But this guy Braun, with his "the sample collector's an anti-semetic Cub fan defense takes the cake as lamest cheater ever.

Not denying anything you say.  I was curious about Merritt's take on Sammy.

[🏀]

What is your stance on Sammy Soser (can't remember who pronounced it that way)?

Well, he never did test positive. Like McGwire, they were linked to Androstenedione, which was not banned by the MLB at the time.

That being said, Sosa is a top-shelf penis.

[jesmu84]

Wow. what a douche.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9592788/ryan-braun-milwaukee-brewers-apologizes-ped-use

[WI inferiority Complexes]

Braun released a statement.  He was using in 2011 to get over a nagging injury, and he's very sorry.

Nothing else to see here, everything can go back to normal now.

http://brewersbeat.mlblogs.com/2013/08/22/braun-issues-statement/

[mu_hilltopper]

As apologies go .. that wasn't bad.  I don't see a lot of word parsing or blame.  Just, I did it, I was wrong, I screwed people over and I shouldn't have, and I'm sorry.   Not sure what else he could have said to make it a better statement.

The only thing that piqued my interest was the concept that the substances were to heal an injury.   There's a spectrum of PED usage .. on one end is "I wanna be a big ogre, swatting home runs" .. on the other would be "I want to heal from an injury quicker."  One is massive cheating, the other .. hmm.

Assuming, of course, that Braun is telling the truth there.