fiscal cliff

[hairy worthen]

Well, I don't want to start a crappy debate, but this is what you said:

You didn't dismiss the information in the .org articles based upon the facts they present, you simply dismissed them because they are .orgs, and in your mind, many .orgs are liberal leaning because they are funded by the government.

Is this this accurate?

If you don't want to start a crappy debate then don't. I am starting to feel like The Equalizer here.


For the record I am not dismissing anything, but at the same time try to be objective and realize where the information is coming from and why they are presenting it. I am not against federally funded .orgs or any .orgs.  The person who posted the articles and reports, posted it to support their point of view. Is that not true?  I am sure there are other reports, articles, data that support the other point of view.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

If you don't want to start a crappy debate then don't. I am starting to feel like The Equalizer here.


For the record I am not dismissing anything, but at the same time try to be objective and realize where the information is coming from and why they are presenting it. I am not against federally funded .orgs or any .orgs.  The person who posted the articles and reports, posted it to support their point of view. Is that not true?  I am sure there are other reports, articles, data that support the other point of view.

Did you read the articles? What exactly is inaccurate (in your mind)?

It seems like you dismissed them initially because they were ".orgs", and now you are trying dismiss the articles because the guy who posted them is a liberal?

Is this accurate?

Oh, and for the record, I haven't read crap, nor do I have a real opinion of TX's current governing body. I simply see some gaps in logic here.

[DegenerateDish]

I think the payroll tax cut not getting extended is going to hurt the economy a lot more than people think. 2% may not seem much, but that 2% is going to come from discretionary income people use for vacations/car purchases/etc. Will be good for the credit card companies.

[Hards Alumni]

In before the lock.

Sorry to ruin the gif and the movie... but Indy wasn't wearing the hat... someone threw it at him while he was diving under the door.

Cannot unsee

[MU B2002]

Sorry to ruin the gif and the movie... but Indy wasn't wearing the hat... someone threw it at him while he was diving under the door.

Cannot unsee

Damn you.  This is almost as unforgettable as the first time someone pointed out the arrow in the Fedex logo.

[hairy worthen]

Did you read the articles? What exactly is inaccurate (in your mind)?

It seems like you dismissed them initially because they were ".orgs", and now you are trying dismiss the articles because the guy who posted them is a liberal?

Is this accurate?

Oh, and for the record, I haven't read crap, nor do I have a real opinion of TX's current governing body. I simply see some gaps in logic here.

Guns,
I don’t think anything is necessarily inaccurate. However,  often times there are other factors and reasons for the conclusions that are not necessarily presented. If I told you Juan Anderson scored 20 points and gave no other information, you would say that was awesome. Would you feel the same way if I told you he took 40 shots, turned the ball over 10 times and MU lost by 20?
  Knowing your sources and being an objective reader is a good thing.  I am not dismissing the sources other than to say know where they are coming from. I am not dismissing  Reinko other than to say he posted them to support his point of view which is fine. If I had the time and the desire, I could find articles and sources that disputed his point of view.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Guns,
I don’t think anything is necessarily inaccurate. However,  often times there are other factors and reasons for the conclusions that are not necessarily presented. If I told you Juan Anderson scored 20 points and gave no other information, you would say that was awesome. Would you feel the same way if I told you he took 40 shots, turned the ball over 10 times and MU lost by 20?
  Knowing your sources and being an objective reader is a good thing.  I am not dismissing the sources other than to say know where they are coming from. I am not dismissing  Reinko other than to say he posted them to support his point of view which is fine. If I had the time and the desire, I could find articles and sources that disputed his point of view.

Well, this is really what I'm getting at.

I have no idea what Reinko's point of view is. Maybe it was shaped by the articles themselves. I don't know.

My point is that dismissing an article or person before you actually read or listen to them is part of the divisive problem we have in politics.

Just because a guy has a (d) or an (r) next to his name doesn't mean his ideas are necessarily good or bad (depending upon your perspective).

Not to get into a bigger rant, but this was part of the Nate Silver issue. Some conservatives refused to believe or even read his research because they thought he was some sort of liberal apologist, and therefore wrong.

A person can write/publish unbiased, dependable information... it's probably best to read it before we write it off as "leftist/right wing" biased.

[Bocephys]

In before the lock.

Can't leave out Star Trek.  I'm also amazed this thread stayed on coarse as long as it did.

[hairy worthen]

Well, this is really what I'm getting at.

I have no idea what Reinko's point of view is. Maybe it was shaped by the articles themselves. I don't know.

My point is that dismissing an article or person before you actually read or listen to them is part of the divisive problem we have in politics.

Just because a guy has a (d) or an (r) next to his name doesn't mean his ideas are necessarily good or bad (depending upon your perspective).

Not to get into a bigger rant, but this was part of the Nate Silver issue. Some conservatives refused to believe or even read his research because they thought he was some sort of liberal apologist, and therefore wrong.

A person can write/publish unbiased, dependable information... it's probably best to read it before we write it off as "leftist/right wing" biased.

Correct and I agree, but it goes both ways as you said. I also see liberals discounting conservatives just because they are conservatives. In fact, more so.   

I think we can reasonably conclude what Reinkos point of view is:

“If you are too lazy to read, your great state has one of the worst health care systems, highest poverty rates, some of the worst air to breathe in the country, your kids are fatter than most, and your state takes in more federal dollars than it pays, so enjoy MY tax dollars down there.”

I lived in Texas for a while and know first-hand their successes and failures. I think it is disingenuous to google a few articles supporting your point of view and only your point of view and post them as fact. And let me repeat, I am not writing anything off without reading it, but also be objective both ways.

[Pakuni]

Any coincidence that California and Illinois are consistently under Democratic "leadership," yet Texas is consistently under Republican leadership and has a thriving economy?

Hmm...but let's not let facts get in the way..

Actually, three of the last five Illinois governors were Republicans. Two of them - Thompson and Edgar - were really good. The third, George Ryan, is the guy who sent the state on a downward spiral. He began his administration with a $1 billion state surplus. When he left, the state had a $5 billion deficit. During most of his term, he had a Republican-controlled state Senate. Oh, and he was a crook who now sits in the federal pen.
Blago definitely made matters much worse, but let's not leave the GOP blameless for the state's fiscal mess. Many of the state's financial problems had their beginnings under a Republican governor and senate.

[Pakuni]

Are you referrin' to the Benz I earned or the Benz that I got because government is responsible for my success?

Yes.

[Hards Alumni]

Correct and I agree, but it goes both ways as you said. I also see liberals discounting conservatives just because they are conservatives. In fact, more so.   

I think we can reasonably conclude what Reinkos point of view is:

“If you are too lazy to read, your great state has one of the worst health care systems, highest poverty rates, some of the worst air to breathe in the country, your kids are fatter than most, and your state takes in more federal dollars than it pays, so enjoy MY tax dollars down there.”

I lived in Texas for a while and know first-hand their successes and failures. I think it is disingenuous to google a few articles supporting your point of view and only your point of view and post them as fact. And let me repeat, I am not writing anything off without reading it, but also be objective both ways.

Your ideology will cause you to see it this way.  I try to read things from both "sides", but I believe there is a lot of cognitive dissonance coming from all sides.

[hairy worthen]

Your ideology will cause you to see it this way.  I try to read things from both "sides", but I believe there is a lot of cognitive dissonance coming from all sides.

How do you know my ideological lean?  I guess you just did the same thing.

I do agree with you.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Correct and I agree, but it goes both ways as you said. I also see liberals discounting conservatives just because they are conservatives. In fact, more so.   

I think we can reasonably conclude what Reinkos point of view is:

“If you are too lazy to read, your great state has one of the worst health care systems, highest poverty rates, some of the worst air to breathe in the country, your kids are fatter than most, and your state takes in more federal dollars than it pays, so enjoy MY tax dollars down there.”

I lived in Texas for a while and know first-hand their successes and failures. I think it is disingenuous to google a few articles supporting your point of view and only your point of view and post them as fact. And let me repeat, I am not writing anything off without reading it, but also be objective both ways.

That's fair, but it's also disingenuous to say this:

Any coincidence that California and Illinois are consistently under Democratic "leadership," yet Texas is consistently under Republican leadership and has a thriving economy?

Hmm...but let's not let facts get in the way..

And then we were off to the races with Renko providing some links (which might be awesome, or terrible, again, I have no idea).

As far as liberals dismissing conservatives and conservatives dismissing liberals, I would guess that it happens pretty evenly. I obviously have no way of qualifying that, but at a macro level, I believe the parties, their tactics and their membership are far more similar than either will ever care to admit.

I'm pretty middle ground and find myself refereeing some conversations amongst friends. The biggest issue I have with both sides is when they act like certain things are a matter of fact:

"You know big oil doesn't pay taxes" or "You know welfare doesn't work".

Clearly there is some truth to each statement, but neither is factual at all. It's the gray area and the details where people often miss the mark.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I think the payroll tax cut not getting extended is going to hurt the economy a lot more than people think. 2% may not seem much, but that 2% is going to come from discretionary income people use for vacations/car purchases/etc. Will be good for the credit card companies.

The payroll tax cut was so damn stupid to begin with.  Let's take something that is broke (SS & Medicare) and cut a chunk of the funding out of it for 2 years.  That'll fix it.

That said, it will hurt the economy big time, as that is something you get weekly/bi weekly, not in a lump sum in March or April like tax refunds.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The payroll tax cut was so damn stupid to begin with.  Let's take something that is broke (SS & Medicare) and cut a chunk of the funding out of it for 2 years.  That'll fix it.

That said, it will hurt the economy big time, as that is something you get weekly/bi weekly, not in a lump sum in March or April like tax refunds.

Well, making tax cuts placates the average person and gets politicians elected/re-elected, which is dumb and short-sighted.

I don't like paying ANY taxes... but if we are going to pay, let's at least pay the correct amount so we can actually operate the country efficiently.

[Pakuni]

Well, making tax cuts placates the average person and gets politicians elected/re-elected, which is dumb and short-sighted.

I don't like paying ANY taxes... but if we are going to pay, let's at least pay the correct amount so we can actually operate the country efficiently.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this. The dispute is over what is "the correct amount." I think we can agree that that is a subject upon which even very smart people can disagree vehemently.

As for the payroll tax, it's a relatively small price to pay to help address much larger problems. It'll cost the average worker less than $1,000. If the expected decline in oil prices comes through (knock on wood), that's not such an awful hit.

[🏀]

Sorry to ruin the gif and the movie... but Indy wasn't wearing the hat... someone threw it at him while he was diving under the door.

Cannot unsee

I think that's what makes the GIF good.

[Jay Bee]

Yes.. EE going back to 6.2% will be felt even by the many, many Americans who pay zero federal income tax.

[ATL MU Warrior]

(Firstly? Is that a word?)   Firstly,  I didn’t say you were a Democrat, read more closely.  

Second, Oil WAS a major part of the Texas economy, but the Texas economy is much more diversified now. Houston had a horrible oil crash in the 80’s but they recovered largely by having a more diversified economy. Houston is doing well now and it is not primarily because of the oil companies.
Also, travelling to Texas many times for business and to visit a friend does not make you an expert on the Texas economy.

Holy crap batman.

Yes, firstly is a word.  Look it up, i suggest disctionary.com unless that too has a liberal bias.  
Thanks again for saying the exact same thing as I did regarding the economy of Texas.
And at no point did I cleam to be an expert on the economy of Texas.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't think anyone disagrees with this. The dispute is over what is "the correct amount." I think we can agree that that is a subject upon which even very smart people can disagree vehemently.

As for the payroll tax, it's a relatively small price to pay to help address much larger problems. It'll cost the average worker less than $1,000. If the expected decline in oil prices comes through (knock on wood), that's not such an awful hit.

Right, and there's the rub.

A lot of dumb voters out there who like immediate results. If oil prices go down and taxes go down, then voters are "happy". They cannot conceptualize the long term impacts of cutting revenue but continuing to spend.

There are a lot of people out there with significant credit card debt because they can't understand this immediate gratification vs. long term benefit.

/old guy rant.
//I'm getting old.

[hairy worthen]

Holy crap batman.

Yes, firstly is a word.  Look it up, i suggest disctionary.com unless that too has a liberal bias.  
Thanks again for saying the exact same thing as I did regarding the economy of Texas.
And at no point did I cleam to be an expert on the "ecomoy" of Texas.

just to set the record straight, this is what you wrote:

"Not sure Texas has a thriving economy but if they do it is for one reason -- Oil.  And your fearless leader named Rick Perry, if he is anything like what he came across during the Republican primaries, is the biggest empty suit on the planet...which is exactly what big oil wants."

That is not true and no I did not say the same thing. Oil WAS  important to the Texas economy, It is a small reason why it is thriving today.

[Pakuni]

That is not true and no I did not say the same thing. Oil WAS  important to the Texas economy, It is a small reason why it is thriving today.

The oil industry accounts for 11 percent of the Texas economy, which actually is significantly up from where it was in the 1990s. By no measure is that small. It is by leaps and bounds the most important element of the state's economy.

For comparison's sake, Texas produces 6.2 percent of the agricultural output in the United States, yet agriculture makes up only .8 percent of the state's economy.
California produces by far the most agricultural products in the U.S. (17 percent of the total), and yet it makes up only 1.5 percent of the state's economy.
In Iowa, agriculture accounts for less than 7 percent of the state's economy.
So, yeah, 11 percent is a lot and oil is not a small reason for anything in Texas. Perhaps less so than in the 80s, but the state still lives and dies on the oil industry.

[real chili 83]

In before the lock.   

Go Warriors!!!

[PBRme]

Sounds to me like the solution is to never elect someone from Texas, California, or Illinois GOP or Dem.