Marquette and football

[LloydMooresLegs]

If I had $100 million to give MU, I'd not let them spend a penny of it on starting a football program, or even on looking into starting a football program.

To be fair, tower912 said 10 figures

[Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup]

When you have a state school like USF or Charlotte, and can commit hundreds of millions of dollars to building a football program from scratch, then you might be able to meet with some success. But Marquette is a private school, with a fraction of the enrollment as some of these other schools, and practically zero public funds would be committed towards coaches' salaries, schollies, or a stadium.

Do you know who the last PRIVATE school to start a football program was, who still maintains that football program in FBS today?
The University of Miami. In 1927.

It's not a coincidence that only 2 Catholic schools (Notre Dame and Boston College) play FBS-level football, and that approximately 87% of all FBS programs are state schools. It is a tremendous undertaking of resources.

[warriorchick]

List of NCAA-sanctioned sports that Marquette will have before they resurrect football:

Cricket
Equestrian
Rodeo
Sand Volleyball
Synchronized Swimming
Water Skiing

[Tugg Speedman]

List of NCAA-sanctioned sports that Marquette will have before they resurrect football:

Cricket
Equestrian
Rodeo
Sand Volleyball
Synchronized Swimming
Water Skiing

MU would be better off pushing speed-skating as a NCAA sport and becoming the preeminent school in the sport.

[Tugg Speedman]

When you have a state school like USF or Charlotte, and can commit hundreds of millions of dollars to building a football program from scratch, then you might be able to meet with some success. But Marquette is a private school, with a fraction of the enrollment as some of these other schools, and practically zero public funds would be committed towards coaches' salaries, schollies, or a stadium.

Do you know who the last PRIVATE school to start a football program was, who still maintains that football program in FBS today?
The University of Miami. In 1927.

It's not a coincidence that only 2 Catholic schools (Notre Dame and Boston College) play FBS-level football, and that approximately 87% of all FBS programs are state schools. It is a tremendous undertaking of resources.

+1 Good Post

Added:

From 1927 to 1980, a total of 53 years. The U was only in 8 bowl games winning three.

January 1, 1935 Orange Bowl L Bucknell 0 26
January 1, 1946 Orange Bowl W Holy Cross 13 6
January 1, 1951 Orange Bowl L Clemson 14 15
January 1, 1952 Gator Bowl W Clemson 14 0
December 16, 1961 Liberty Bowl L Syracuse 14 15
December 15, 1962 Gotham Bowl L Nebraska 34 36
December 10, 1966 Liberty Bowl W Virginia Tech 14 7
December 23, 1967 Bluebonnet Bowl L Colorado 21 31

Are we ready for MU to be a middling team for 50+ years before it becomes good enough to become a BCS conference worthy team?

[jsglow]

MU would be better off pushing speed-skating as a NCAA sport and becoming the preeminent school in the sport.

Concur.  We could build a program that #1 in the country every year, if that were the goal.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Another, I'm not against offering football, even if it is lower level to start.  I do, however, recognize what an enormous uphill battle it would be.

When I was at IU and KU, we sucked at football (actually KU we weren't bad), but it was still an event, a source of pride, etc.  I work with a few folks that were at USD when Harbaugh was the coach down there and it had the campus electrified.

Is it worth doing?  Probably not. Too many obstacles, enormous resources, etc.  However, it could be done and I don't buy into the notion that it can't.  Nor do I buy into the notion that having lower level football is a bad thing. 

I'll equate a high school story to you...yes, I know it's high school and a big difference, but allow me.  When I played football at my Catholic high school we were a tiny school of 550 kids and one of the lowest divisions in California high school football.   About 10 years ago the school decided to "go for it".  We have an enrollment today of 530 but tonight play Mater Dei, one of the best programs in the country and ranked 10th in the nation in the semi-finals of the highest division in the state.  Last we my alma mater beat the defending state champion to get to this game.  My little school, currently ranked 13th in the nation by MaxPreps....the game is on national television.  The winner will likely play St. John Boscho next Saturday at Angels Stadium for the Pac 5 championsip...St. John Boscho is currently ranked #1 in the nation.    The talent on the field tonight will be pretty sick.  My school put out one DII player when I was there.  Now we regularly put guys out to UCLA, USC, Florida State, Stanford, Notre Dame, Arizona, Colorado, etc...that little school of 530 (coed by the way, only 250 boys go to the school).  We have several guys in the NFL.  We hired the right coach 14 years ago, put money into it, upgraded the facilities and changed the culture and did it at a TINY little school in the biggest state in the country.  Not an easy feat.  Go Seraphs!

High school isn't college, but my point was that with the right people and resources you can do some pretty amazing things.  No one on the planet 15 years ago would have thought Boise State would be a nationally ranked football program finishing in the top 10 multiple years.  No one would have thought UCONN would play in a New Year's Eve bowl, or UAB would produce players like Roddy White in the NFL.   

You just never know.  I would love to see lower level football started and see where it goes.  I think starting out with the idea of a DI in 5 years would be nuts and a waste of money.

[Tugg Speedman]

Some stats

127 FBS schools
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_FBS_football_programs

82 (65%) started playing football before 1900

Only 10 started playing football since 1996, all large public schools

School  First Played Joined FBS
Charlotte  2013    2015
UTSA       2011    2012
Georgia State  2010  2013
Old Dominion   2009  2015
South Alabama 2009  2012
FIU                 2002  2006            
Florida Atlantic  2001  2006
South Florida    1997   2001
UAB                1991   1996
UCF                1979    1996

Private Schools in FBS, total of 17 of 127 (13%)

School          First Played
Miami                 1927
BYU                   1921
SMU                  1915
Rice                   1912
Baylor                1899
TCU                   1896
Tulsa                 1895
Tulane               1893
Boston College     1893
Stanford             1891
Vanderbilt           1890
Syracuse            1889
Duke                  1888
USC                   1888
Wake Forest        1888  
ND                     1887
Northwestern       1875


---

Make me the case the MU would be the 18th on this list.  It is not possible.

[Tugg Speedman]

Another, I'm not against offering football, even if it is lower level to start.  I do, however, recognize what an enormous uphill battle it would be.

...

You just never know.  I would love to see lower level football started and see where it goes.  I think starting out with the idea of a DI in 5 years would be nuts and a waste of money.

I don't think anyone here that wants football (MU Avenue) is thinking we start a NAIA type program playing in front of 2k to 3K on the soccer field in the valley.  Remember we cannot have a D III football if we have a D1 basketball program.  No, they want to be in the Big 10 in a few years.

And yes it would cost millions to start even a NAIA program because of Title IX.  85 to 95 men's scholarships has to be offset with a reduction in other men's programs and/or an increase in women's programs.  So yes, even an NAIA program would cost millions.  What existing Men's program you want to cut to make room for football?  Soccer?

I can think of other more worthwhile things MU could so with those millions ... including setting it on fire.

[forgetful]

All the schools Chicos and Another posted that started Football recently, did not do it to be successful.  They fully intend on losing and losing badly each year.

There are a few small schools that no one ever heard of, that had given up football because it was costing them a fortune.  After a few years, they realized that even in cities 100 miles away, no one new who they were or where they were located.  So they decided to go ahead and lose a ton of money on football so that they can lose by 60-70 its a game so hopefully people look them up.

If that is what you want from MU, then by all means dig in.  But, people know of MU across the country because of its basketball program.  Because of that program the academics are being boosted.

Pissing $100 million away to be awful will only hurt the image of MU.

[unforgiven]

List of NCAA-sanctioned sports that Marquette will have before they resurrect football:

Cricket
Equestrian
Rodeo
Sand Volleyball
Synchronized Swimming
Water Skiing

Is Nude Coed Beer Sliding on the list? From what I saw at the Lanche we could be competitive and for less than $125M

[warriorchick]

Is Nude Coed Beer Sliding on the list? From what I saw at the Lanche we could be competitive and for less than $125M

Never hurts to ask.

It doesn't look like you even need a lot of schools to have teams for a sport to be approved.  Men's Cheerleading only has 3  - one in each Division.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/about+the+ncaa/who+we+are+landing+page

[unforgiven]

Men's Cheerleading only has 3  - one in each Division.

How is this a "sport?"

[honkytonk]

Private Schools in FBS, total of 17 of 127 (13%)

School          First Played
Miami                 1927
BYU                   1921
SMU                  1915
Rice                   1912
Baylor                1899
TCU                   1896
Tulsa                 1895
Tulane               1893
Boston College     1893
Stanford             1891
Vanderbilt           1890
Syracuse            1889
Duke                  1888
USC                   1888
Wake Forest        1888  
ND                     1887
Northwestern       1875

Im guessing that MU's endowment is well under half of the lowest endowment of all of these private schools listed. For private schools, football should come after a billion dollar endowment.

Edite: looks like Tulsa's is just over 800M. close enough

[Tugg Speedman]

All the schools Chicos and Another posted that started Football recently, did not do it to be successful.  They fully intend on losing and losing badly each year.

There are a few small schools that no one ever heard of, that had given up football because it was costing them a fortune.  After a few years, they realized that even in cities 100 miles away, no one new who they were or where they were located.  So they decided to go ahead and lose a ton of money on football so that they can lose by 60-70 its a game so hopefully people look them up.

If that is what you want from MU, then by all means dig in.  But, people know of MU across the country because of its basketball program.  Because of that program the academics are being boosted.

Pissing $100 million away to be awful will only hurt the image of MU.

+1

Just to add, MU has name recognition.  I travel the country on business and everyone has heard of the school (even if some struggle to place it in Milwaukee).  It has solid name recognition as a Milwaukee school in the northeast thanks to the Big East.

So, adding a mediocre anything will not help the school.  What it needs is something it can excel at.

That is why I suggested speed-skating because of the Petit Center.  Let MU "own" the Winter Olympics coverage because of speed-skating.  That would do more than a lousy low division football team no one cares about.

[ChicosBailBonds]

All the schools Chicos and Another posted that started Football recently, did not do it to be successful.  They fully intend on losing and losing badly each year.

I don't believe that to be true at all.  Some expect to lose early on, but that doesn't mean they expect to lose forever.  It depends the level those programs wish to compete in.

Back in 1989, would anyone associated with MU basketball think within 15 years we would go to the Final Four, be part of the Big East conference?  People would say you are crazy.  10 years ago would anyone at Boise State think they would be playing in several New Year's Day bowl games (and winning them)?  18 years ago there were people (MOST) saying delivering television through a satellite to people's homes was a waste of money and an idea that would die within 2 or 3 years.

It can be done.  It's hard as hell, a lot of luck, timing, etc, but with the right people (hires), the right infrastructure, one never knows the possibilities that are out there.  It's not going to happen here, that's for sure.  Unfortunately, MU is in a real bind as a result of us not having a program.

[GGGG]

Unfortunately, MU is in a real bind as a result of us not having a program.

Correct.  But that cannot be changed.  If you look at all those teams that have added football in the last 35 years, none of them are in BCS conferences with the exception of South Florida...and soon to be Central Florida.  (Note: That is if you still want to call the Big East a BCS conference.)

So what is the ultimate end game for football?  That MU could reach Conference USA level?  And then what?  We return to Conference USA?

The fact is that Marquette will never get full membership to a big money conference.  And that is the only way that Marquette can make money playing football.  Otherwise it is a drain and not worth the costs.

[forgetful]

I don't believe that to be true at all.  Some expect to lose early on, but that doesn't mean they expect to lose forever.  It depends the level those programs wish to compete in.

Back in 1989, would anyone associated with MU basketball think within 15 years we would go to the Final Four, be part of the Big East conference?  People would say you are crazy.  10 years ago would anyone at Boise State think they would be playing in several New Year's Day bowl games (and winning them)?  18 years ago there were people (MOST) saying delivering television through a satellite to people's homes was a waste of money and an idea that would die within 2 or 3 years.

It can be done.  It's hard as hell, a lot of luck, timing, etc, but with the right people (hires), the right infrastructure, one never knows the possibilities that are out there.  It's not going to happen here, that's for sure.  Unfortunately, MU is in a real bind as a result of us not having a program.

Several of those schools on the list I know for a fact have no intentions of ever being competitive.  But for humor sake, which of those teams you listed do you think will be completive at any point in the next 20 years.

If MU still had a football program, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because we would be in a bottom feeder conference somewhere with little to know basketball program to speak of.  Why??? Because we wouldn't have had the money to commit to the program that we have today.

For someone that is supposedly in business and previously academics you seem to be very poor at rational decision making when it comes to business and academic matters.

[Tugg Speedman]

Several of those schools on the list I know for a fact have no intentions of ever being competitive.  But for humor sake, which of those teams you listed do you think will be completive at any point in the next 20 years.

If MU still had a football program, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because we would be in a bottom feeder conference somewhere with little to know basketball program to speak of.  Why??? Because we wouldn't have had the money to commit to the program that we have today.

For someone that is supposedly in business and previously academics you seem to be very poor at rational decision making when it comes to business and academic matters.

+1

It has been suggested in previous posts that MU dropped football in 1960 and decided to emphasize basketball.  It is reasonable to assume that means no Al or if we did hire Al, he would have left much sooner not wanting to play second banana to football.

Can't have it both ways. Cannot assume MU basketball would be what it is today plus football if we never dropped it 52 years ago.  Most likely we would be a much watered down version of both and thus worse off than with as a nationally recognized  basketball power with no football team.

[unforgiven]

Im guessing that MU's endowment is well under half of the lowest endowment of all of these private schools listed.

I'm hoping this isn't a reference to the endowment of alums

[RideMyBuycks]

For those of you interested in watching a half-competitive football team with "MU" on the jerseys (and not merely concerned with conference affiliation) may I suggest donating some marketing insight to the MU club team? Most students at MU have no idea the club football team exists. I went to the club team "try out" my freshman year. My 6'1" 160-pound frame impressed the coaches..."wow, we finally have a quarterback!" I had never played an organized highschool football snap.

State schools in Wisconsin have Rugby club teams that students actually get excited about. Maybe MU could establish a relatively respected club team through decent marketing to the students. Heck, I would watch an exhibition against Riverfalls.

Bonus: club teams are not officially sanctioned by the university, so they could even be dubbed Warriors!

[77ncaachamps]

What is the Public vs Private breakdown of the below list?

Good Post CBB ...

For all those that want MU to start FB, what school on the list below do you wish we were?  Which of these schools is getting invited into a BCS conference in your lifetime?  (The answer is none).  How many of these schools have you heard of before (that is why most are starting FB programs).

Again, the point of this thread, and discussion about MU FB, is to be a BCS school.  Otherwise it is a waste of MU resources to create a glorified HS program.

Five programs launching in 2012:
Blufield College - Bluefield, Va. (NAIA)
Lindenwood University-Belleville - Belleville, Ill. (NAIA)
Misericordia University - Dallas, Pa. (NCAA D-III)
Point University - West Point, Ga. (NAIA)
Wayland Baptist University - Plainview, Texas (NAIA)

17 programs launching in 2013-2015:
Alderson-Broaddus College - Philippi, W. Va. (NCAA D-II) 2013
Berry College - Mount Berry, Ga. (NCAA D-III) 2013
Florida Tech - Melbourne, Fla. (NCAA D-II) 2013
Hendrix College - Conway, Ark. (NCAA D-III) 2013
Mercer University - Macon, Ga. (NCAA D-I FCS Pioneer Football League) 2013
Oklahoma Baptist University - Shawnee, Okla. (NAIA) 2013
Reinhardt University - Waleska, Ga. (NAIA) 2013
Southwestern University - Georgetown, Texas (NCAA D-III) 2013
Stetson University - DeLand, Fla. (NCAA D-I FCS Pioneer Football League) 2013
University of North Carolina at Charlotte - Charlotte, NC (NCAA D-I FCS Independent) 2013
Warner University - Lake Wales, Fla. (NAIA) 2013
College of Idaho - Caldwell, Idaho (NAIA) 2014
George Fox University - Newberg, Ore. (NCAA D-III) 2014
Houston Baptist University - Houston, Texas (NCAA D-I FCS Southland Conference) 2014
Kennesaw State University - Kennesaw, Ga. (NCAA D-I FCS Conference TBA) 2014
Finlandia University - Hancock, Mich. (NCAA D-III) 2014
Unviersity of New Orleans - New Orleans, La. (NCAA D-I FCS Independent) 2014


Nine programs launched in 2011:
Ave Maria University - Ave Maria, Fla. (NAIA)
Concordia University - Ann Arbor, Mich. (NAIA)
Ohio Mid-Western College - Sharonville, Ohio (U.S. Collegiate Athletics Association)
Presentation College - Aberdeen, SD (NCAA D-III)
Robert Morris University - Chicago, Ill. (NAIA)
Siena Heights University - Adrian, Mich. (NAIA)
Stevenson University - Owings Mills, Md. (NCAA D-III)
University of Texas at San Antonio - San Antonio, Texas (NCAA D-I FBS Conference USA)
Virginia University of Lynchburg - Lynchburg, Va. (U.S. Collegiate Athletics Association)

Six programs launched in 2010:
Georgia State University - Atlanta, Ga. (NCAA D-I FBS - transitional - FCS Colonial Athlatic Association/FBS Sun Belt Conference in 2013)
Lamar University - Beaumont, Texas (NCAA D-I FCS Southland Conference)
Lindsey Wilson College - Columbia, Ky. (NAIA)
Notre Dame College - South Euclid, Ohio (NAIA)
Pacific University - Forest Grove, Ore. (NCAA D-III)
University of South Alabama - Mobile, Ala. (NCAA D-I FBS Sun Belt Conference)

Five programs launched in 2009:
Anna Maria College - Paxton, Mass. (NCAA D-III)
Castleton State College - Castleton, Vt. (NCAA D-III)
Old Dominion University - Norfork, Va. (NCAA D-I FCS Colonial Athletic Confernence/FBS Conference USA in 2013)
University of New Haven - West Haven, Conn. (NCAA D-II)
University of the Incarnate Word - San Antonio, Texas (NCAA D-II)

Eight programs launched in 2008:
Campbell University - Buies Creek, N.C. (NCAA D-I FCS Pioneer League)
College of St. Scholastica - Duluth, Minn. (NCAA D-III)
Colorado State University-Pueblo - Pueblo, Colo. (NCAA D-II)
Dordt College - Sioux Center, Iowa (NAIA)
Grand View University - Des Moines, Iowa (NAIA)
Kentucky Christian University - Grayson, Ky. (NAIA)
Lake Erie College - Plainsville, Ohio (NCAA D-II)
Lincoln University of Pennsylvania - Lincoln University, Penn. (NCAA D-II)

[Les Nessman]

What color would our turf be?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Several of those schools on the list I know for a fact have no intentions of ever being competitive.  But for humor sake, which of those teams you listed do you think will be completive at any point in the next 20 years.

If MU still had a football program, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because we would be in a bottom feeder conference somewhere with little to know basketball program to speak of.  Why??? Because we wouldn't have had the money to commit to the program that we have today.

For someone that is supposedly in business and previously academics you seem to be very poor at rational decision making when it comes to business and academic matters.

"Several" is a lot different than "All the schools Chicos and Another posted that started Football recently, did not do it to be successful."  I'd also like to know who you know for a fact is only fielding a team not to be competitive because if that were to ever get out it would create enormous problems for those programs.  I'm sorry, but I don't believe you.  It ultimately comes down to defining success.  Pick any of those programs..Florida Tech...they plan on being competitive at the DII level within their conference.  Does that mean they will win a national title at the DII level?  Success is judged in many ways.  You have to realize that some of these schools are also fighting a gender gap issue where they need men on campus and this is one way to get men enrolled.  With some success, they hope to get more men involved.

As far as your basketball commentary, impossible to know or predict what would have happened if MU kept football and what impact that would have on hoops.  No one here knows that, no one.  You could make the same argument about the MU medical school. You could also turn it on it's head and if MU still had the medical school we might be a more prestigious school right now, with a larger endowment.  We just don't know.  There are bets made all the time in business and athletics, some work and some don't.  Some are based on rational thought, some might not be, but I feel pretty darn good about the decisions I've made the last 15 plus and bets I've placed and what they have led to.   

We can both come up with examples where the bets failed miserably and those where the bets succeeded like no other.  That's a given.

Look at the state of Wisconsin alone for some examples.  In the late 1980's UW-madison may have been one of the 5 worst football programs in America.  Now they are a perennial top 20 program.  MU basketball was a complete joke, now one of the better programs in the country.  UW-madison basketball, a complete joke for 50+ years...now arguably one of the best programs in the country.  The Green Bay Packers, 20 years of horrid football, couldn't even sell out Milwaukee County Stadium.  They all made some bets, made the right hires, had a little luck, but most of all didn't settle.  You look at where those entities were in the mid to late 1980's and where they are today...they made some bets and most of their bets paid off.  Whether it was changing conferences, investing in their facilities, making bold hires, pumping money into the programs, they made bets and those bets paid off.

[Dawson Rental]

+1

It has been suggested in previous posts that MU dropped football in 1960 and decided to emphasize basketball.  It is reasonable to assume that means no Al or if we did hire Al, he would have left much sooner not wanting to play second banana to football.

Can't have it both ways. Cannot assume MU basketball would be what it is today plus football if we never dropped it 52 years ago.  Most likely we would be a much watered down version of both and thus worse off than with as a nationally recognized  basketball power with no football team.

It is quite correct to assume that MU basketball would not be what it is today if MU never dropped football.  Football was dropped because it had become a financial disaster that threatened to take down the whole athletic department.  The decision was made to emphasize men's basketball because it was seen as the only realistic possibility for generating the cash necessary to get the athletic department out from under the debt load that it was straddled under from the already discontinued football program.