2012 MLB Thread

[MerrittsMustache]

Painful.   Interesting stat brought up last night.   Through last night's game, all time record in the WS of a team that swept the LCS vs a team that went 7 to win the LCS:     1-15     Still looking for that dirtbag that refuses to lose.  

I'm sorry but no "dirtbag" is going to save a team that hits .159 in the WS. The Tigers have talent but the time off and the Giants' pitching kept them out of rhythm. Teams win the World Series because of talent, not because of dirtbags or grinders or screamers or whatever you want to call them. Prior to this season, the Giants you mentioned who "refuse to lose" (Pagan, Scutaro and Pence) had been to the playoffs a combined 2 times in 21 seasons.  Scutaro was actually the starting SS for the Red Sox when they collapsed last September.

[GGGG]

I'm sorry but no "dirtbag" is going to save a team that hits .159 in the WS. The Tigers have talent but the time off and the Giants' pitching kept them out of rhythm. Teams win the World Series because of talent, not because of dirtbags or grinders or screamers or whatever you want to call them. Prior to this season, the Giants you mentioned who "refuse to lose" (Pagan, Scutaro and Pence) had been to the playoffs a combined 2 times in 21 seasons.  Scutaro was actually the starting SS for the Red Sox when they collapsed last September.

+1.  Well said.

That being said, Scutaro had a very good year and was a perfect fit for what the Giants needed this year.  That doesn't mean that he would be good fit for the Tigers, or even for next year's Giants. 

[CTWarrior]

Painful.   Interesting stat brought up last night.   Through last night's game, all time record in the WS of a team that swept the LCS vs a team that went 7 to win the LCS:     1-15     Still looking for that dirtbag that refuses to lose.  

It's really 2-16, but still an amazing stat.

1988, Dodgers beat A's 4-1
2006, Cards beath Tigers, 4-1
2007, Red Sox beat Rockies 4-0
2012, Giants beat Tigers 4-0

When it was 5 games for the championship series, it was pretty even (LCS sweepers won 3 of 5 series and 16-12 overall in games)

1976, Reds (3-0 NLCS) beat Yankees (3-2 ALCS), 4-0
1980, Phillies (3-2 NLCS) beat Royals (3-0 ALCS), 4-2
1981, Dodgers (3-2 NLCS) beat Yankees (3-0 ALCS), 4-2
1982, Cardinals (3-0 NLCS) beat Brewers (3-2 ALCS), 4-3
1984, Tigers (3-0 ALCS) beat Padres (3-2 NLCS), 4-1

[Benny B]

Even though the MVP voting took place over three weeks ago (~Oct 3), Posey's less-than-spectacular post-season (.200/.294/.350) pretty much sums up why I think the whole "MVP voting preference" that's given to players who are in the post-season is a bunch of garbage.  If you're going to give Posey and Molina (who had the same .200/.294 line before his meaningless 4 for 4 performance in StL's 0-9 Game 7 loss) extra credit because the Giants and Cards were in the post-season, then wait until the post-season is over before taking the vote.

[MerrittsMustache]

Even though the MVP voting took place over three weeks ago (~Oct 3), Posey's less-than-spectacular post-season (.200/.294/.350) pretty much sums up why I think the whole "MVP voting preference" that's given to players who are in the post-season is a bunch of garbage.  If you're going to give Posey and Molina (who had the same .200/.294 line before his meaningless 4 for 4 performance in StL's 0-9 Game 7 loss) extra credit because the Giants and Cards were in the post-season, then wait until the post-season is over before taking the vote.

The award is for the regular season.

[tower912]

It's really 2-16, but still an amazing stat.

1988, Dodgers beat A's 4-1
2006, Cards beath Tigers, 4-1
2007, Red Sox beat Rockies 4-0
2012, Giants beat Tigers 4-0

When it was 5 games for the championship series, it was pretty even (LCS sweepers won 3 of 5 series and 16-12 overall in games)

1976, Reds (3-0 NLCS) beat Yankees (3-2 ALCS), 4-0
1980, Phillies (3-2 NLCS) beat Royals (3-0 ALCS), 4-2
1981, Dodgers (3-2 NLCS) beat Yankees (3-0 ALCS), 4-2
1982, Cardinals (3-0 NLCS) beat Brewers (3-2 ALCS), 4-3
1984, Tigers (3-0 ALCS) beat Padres (3-2 NLCS), 4-1

Then Joe Buck and Timmy got it wrong on Saturday night.    No worries.   Same basic principle.      One of the (many) Tiger's flaws in the WS was that they had taken on the flatline personality of Leyland.   There is no position player on that team that is a clubhouse leader.      There was no passion from the Tigers.     Nobody to lead.     SF had that.

[BrewCity83]

Then Joe Buck and Timmy got it wrong on Saturday night.    No worries.   Same basic principle.      One of the (many) Tiger's flaws in the WS was that they had taken on the flatline personality of Leyland.   There is no position player on that team that is a clubhouse leader.      There was no passion from the Tigers.     Nobody to lead.     SF had that.

That's funny...everyone kept asking how the Brewers were gonna replace Prince's leadership in the clubhouse this season.  Guess he left that behind.

[Benny B]

The award is for the regular season.

Semantics, I suppose.

Nevertheless, to pad an MVP candidate's resume by saying that he "accomplished" getting his team to the post-season during the regular season is ridiculous.  A post-season appearance is a team accomplishment, not an individual achievement (unless said candidate had more runs/RBI's than the opposition in every one of the team's wins and no plate appearances in all of the team's losses).

[tower912]

That's funny...everyone kept asking how the Brewers were gonna replace Prince's leadership in the clubhouse this season.  Guess he left that behind.

He actually downplayed his leadership and the need to get fired up in the clubhouse this year.    A calming influence is a good thing, but knowing when to get fired up is important, too. 

[buckchuckler]

Semantics, I suppose.

Nevertheless, to pad an MVP candidate's resume by saying that he "accomplished" getting his team to the post-season during the regular season is ridiculous.  A post-season appearance is a team accomplishment, not an individual achievement (unless said candidate had more runs/RBI's than the opposition in every one of the team's wins and no plate appearances in all of the team's losses).

I forget, was this the consensus opinion of Brewer fans last season when Kemp had better stats than Braun, but Braun's team got into the playoffs?

[Benny B]

I forget, was this the consensus opinion of Brewer fans last season when Kemp had better stats than Braun, but Braun's team got into the playoffs?

Good luck finding any consensus on anything amongst baseball fans.

[buckchuckler]

Good luck finding any consensus on anything amongst baseball fans.

Ok fine. 

I forget, was this the prevailing feeling among Brewer fans last season when Kemp had better stats than Braun, but Braun's team got into the playoffs? 

[GGGG]

I'm a Brewer fan and I think Posey should get the MVP over Braun.  Braun might have had slightly better power numbers, but Posey caught 114 games this year.  I always give the benefit of the doubt to a catcher versus a left fielder.  Much more mentally and physically demanding.

[MerrittsMustache]

I'm a Brewer fan and I think Posey should get the MVP over Braun.  Braun might have had slightly better power numbers, but Posey caught 114 games this year.  I always give the benefit of the doubt to a catcher versus a left fielder.  Much more mentally and physically demanding.

Braun is not going to be the MVP this season or any in the near future. He will likely finish no better than third behind Posey and McCutchen. Too many voters view him as a cheater. Jayson Stark wrote this about Braun in an article earlier this season...

I'd bet at least one-third of this year's MVP voters don't give him even a top-10 vote. And that will be that. And you know what? If that happens, it won't just be the ban-'em-all-for-life crowd that cheers. So will people who work in this sport. Some of them.

One last story: As I was working on this column, I asked one of the scouts quoted earlier which player he thought was the National League MVP. His answer said it all.

"Anybody," he said, "but Ryan Braun."

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8375277/buster-posey-andrew-mccutchen-ryan-braun-wild-national-league-mvp-race-mlb

[Benny B]

Braun is not going to be the MVP this season or any in the near future. He will likely finish no better than third behind Posey and McCutchen. Too many voters view him as a cheater. Jayson Stark wrote this about Braun in an article earlier this season...

I'd bet at least one-third of this year's MVP voters don't give him even a top-10 vote. And that will be that. And you know what? If that happens, it won't just be the ban-'em-all-for-life crowd that cheers. So will people who work in this sport. Some of them.

One last story: As I was working on this column, I asked one of the scouts quoted earlier which player he thought was the National League MVP. His answer said it all.

"Anybody," he said, "but Ryan Braun."

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8375277/buster-posey-andrew-mccutchen-ryan-braun-wild-national-league-mvp-race-mlb

It's probably worth mentioning that Stark used his opening twelve paragraphs to explain why he, personally, isn't going to allow the drug test to factor into his voting and used the above strictly as a counterpoint in the final three paragraphs.  I'm not at all discounting what he said; however, you've got one voter on the record basically saying that he would vote for Braun but only speculation that others (up to one-third according to Stark) will not. 

In any event, it's a bit too premature to say that "too many voters view him as a cheater;" he's not an admitted cheater like Bonds, McGwire, etc. and that's where I see the potential for internal conflict within those journalists who "feel a need to make moral statements on behalf of the planet" yet are skewed to the end of the spectrum that goes off the deep end the moment anyone tampers with an individual's due process.

[MerrittsMustache]

Rookies of the Year announced.

A no-brainer in the AL: Mike Trout

Bryce Harper wins it in the NL based on reputation. Both Miley and Frazier had better seasons.

[jmayer1]

Rookies of the Year announced.

A no-brainer in the AL: Mike Trout

Bryce Harper wins it in the NL based on reputation. Both Miley and Frazier had better seasons.

Harper had a higher WAR than both. Barely over Miley according to fangraphs but by a lot according to baseball refernce and in both over Frazier.

[buckchuckler]

Rookies of the Year announced.

A no-brainer in the AL: Mike Trout

Bryce Harper wins it in the NL based on reputation. Both Miley and Frazier had better seasons.

Seems a bit unfair to Harper.  Harper had more Runs, Steals, Singles, (tied in doubles) Triples, Home Runs, Walks and a higher OBP than Frazier.  The numbers in most categories were very close, though steals, runs, and walks all went heavily to Harper.  Both had very strong seasons, I think for the offensive players, I would have given the edge to Harper. 

Miley had a great season, if I had a vote, that is probably where I would have gone.  But I can certainly understand giving it to a player that was contributing everyday, and on a contender no less.   

[MerrittsMustache]

Harper had a higher WAR than both. Barely over Miley according to fangraphs but by a lot according to baseball refernce and in both over Frazier.

Frazier had a better OPS. Remember when the baseball nerds declared OPS the most important stat?  I don't understand why WAR is now such a hot stat when you consider that there's not a consistent way to calculate it.

Anyway, I would have voted for Miley. The way I calculate WAR, he was ahead of Harper.

[tower912]

Torii Hunter to the Tigers for two years.    Perfect.   Clubouse presence, mentor for the young guys, lets Garcia and Castellanos develop for another year or two.   Bat him second or 6th.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Torii Hunter to the Tigers for two years.    Perfect.   Clubouse presence, mentor for the young guys, lets Garcia and Castellanos develop for another year or two.   Bat him second or 6th.   

He's the best.  He has been so great for the Halos here....first class all the way.  You'll love, absolutely love his infectious attitude.  Hate to see him go, but we're screwed with the Vernon Wells situation and have so many great outfielders (Trout, Bourjos, etc) at low cost that it became inevitable.  Good get by the Tigers.

[tower912]

I energetically lamented the lack of clubhouse leadership for the Tigers this year.    IMO, this directly addresses it.   In addition, with the return of Victor Martinez, I expect to see fewer teamwide slumps.     

[ChicosBailBonds]

Trout or Cabrera?

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8631348/mlb-2012-american-league-most-valuable-player

I'm hoping for Kid Fish and I think the numbers are there, but we'll see what the voters say.

[🏀]

Trout or Cabrera?

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8631348/mlb-2012-american-league-most-valuable-player

I'm hoping for Kid Fish and I think the numbers are there, but we'll see what the voters say.

Cabrera's going to win.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Cabrera's going to win.

Yup, he did.  I disagree, ESPN did as well with their experts but such is life.  I didn't understand "made the postseason" argument because the Halos had a better record than the Tigers but played in the AL's best division.  The Tigers would have finished in 4th place in the AL West, but some people put a lot of credence into that.  Again, such is life.