The Everlasting Craptastical Mystery Thread

[brewcity77]

3) Marquette is its own #1 asset.  Without MU, Buzz isn't the coach.  MU isn't MU because of Buzz.  He doesn't walk on water.  He is a terrific coach, tireless worker but he makes mistakes, too (Durley, Roseboro, Clark, Newbill).  No one is irreplaceable.

I agree with much of what you said, but while I know you weren't a fan of his recruitment, can we wait until the kid fails before throwing Durley under the bus?

And Clark seems a bit unfair on Buzz as well...he recruited a guy that a lot of other schools recruited, and when the crap came out, we pulled out.

But yeah, he makes mistakes, we'd get on without him. Still rather have him here.

[mu_hilltopper]

It's a little daffy to argue the impact of losing Buzz.  Ok, it's not daffy.  Galacticly stupid.

It would be huge in the short term, COULD be huge in the long term.

It would take X seasons to recover.  Whether X is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 .. is unknown since you can't predict which players would transfer, which recruits would decommit, of which there would certainly be a few.

It's not easy to compete in the BE / rebuild a coaching staff and fill out a team.  What's the success rate of new coaches?  How many hires look great, then 6 years later, you're lounging in the lower half of your incredibly tough conference? 

Then there's the concept that Buzz is indeed, one of the top 25 coaches around.   Hard to predict MU could poach another Top 25 coach, or pull a "Buzz" out of a hat, which looking back, was a lottery win that a ton of people doubted.

Then add in "how" Buzz would leave.  If it looks like MU's administration is viewed as making it difficult for the program to succeed due to strict requirements / made the current program difficult to manage .. presto, you have a program potential coaches would shun.

There's no getting around it .. MU got lucky when Buzz replaced Crean.  Could we get as lucky a 2nd time? 

There is an certain chance MU doesn't recover for 10 years, not 1-5 years due to those factors.  I think most of us would consider that a huge, huge blow.

[Lennys Tap]

4) The same guys that say MU will go into the toilet if Buzz leaves are the exact same guys that predicted the former coach would be fired by now at his new job.  We're supposed to believe their predictions about impending doom for MU if Buzz leaves, but ignore their past predictions that have been so completely wrong?

Untrue. And Foolish. Untrue because I for one believe MU will go in the toilet if Buzz leaves but didn't predict the former coach would be fired by now. Foolish because being wrong on prediction A has no bearing on being right or wrong on prediction B, if indeed there even are some who predicted both.

Complete. Rubbish.

[Canadian Dimes]

I can say without any degree of speculation, and 100% confidence - Buzz to SMU damn near happened.  To those who mocked the letter writing campaign thread to state their support of Buzz - you probably can thank those people (who wrote) for Buzz still being the Head Coach at MU.  Buzz is still at MU due to 2 things and 2 things only:  Loyalty to the kids he's recruited and due to the many letters of support he received as this whole crap storm unfolded. 

The reality is Buzz went from happy to unhappy in a matter of 1 year, during which time a new President and Athletic Director came into power.  If Pilarz and L Williams manage to run off Buzz due to overreaching micromanagement, the aftermath will be quite interesting...and sad for MU Basketball moving forward.

I looooove these types of posts....Ners can you please give us some basis behind your first sentence?

[Canadian Dimes]

i still haven't heard anything from a reliable source as to the background of this comment.  for all i know AD walks in Buzz' office, comment on how hilarious his dance was at WV since the jerks are leaving the BEAST, and then asks buzz if he's cool with the AD coming down on him a bit publicly for the dance.  smu calls to talk to buzz, and buzz says heck yeah i want to talk to them and be respectful to help get my assistant a job...and rumors start flying.

i'm not sure anyone with true insight into the BOT or upper admin is going to be posting it on the internet...and i think a lot of rumors get spread because people like to act like they know people. 

This X100000000000000000000000.

The rest is stupid and wild speculation

[mu03eng]

You can't compare replacing Crean with Buzz to what will happen if Buzz is replaced by X.

At best Crean had plateaued as to where the program was if not come back down from the highs of the '03 and '04.  Right now I'd argue that Buzz has this program at heights even Crean didn't achieve.  So we are that much higher and that much higher to fall.  If Buzz were to leave, players could leave(especially if its an admin "force out") and recruiting classes fall apart.  Personally I think we are looking very good to make a DEEP run in 2013, the admin wants to blow that up over a media black eye?  I don't get it.

[Lennys Tap]

2) Marquette can hire another coach.  We have won with other coaches in the past and will again in the future.  Sultan does a nice job of explaining why.

3) Marquette is its own #1 asset.  Without MU, Buzz isn't the coach.  MU isn't MU because of Buzz.  He doesn't walk on water.  He is a terrific coach, tireless worker but he makes mistakes, too (Durley, Roseboro, Clark, Newbill).  No one is irreplaceable.

Regarding #2: Duh! Not only "can" Marquette hire a new coach, I'll go so far as to say that if Buzz leaves Marquette will hire a new coach. Has anyone suggested that if Buzz leaves MU will drop basketball? Have we won with other coaches? Yes. Have we also lost with other coaches? Also yes. So, pointless and complete rubbish.
Regarding #3: Marrquette had assets the last time we needed a coach: the Al, the Big East, 3 consecutive NCAA appearances, a recent Final 4, etc. Yet nobody worthy in your/chicos eyes wanted anything to do with Marquette. MU hit a home run with a guy your faction didn't think was worthy of the job, yet I gather you think this time it'll be easy to go find another diamond in the rough to replace him. Again. Complete. Rubbish.

[Lennys Tap]

It's a little daffy to argue the impact of losing Buzz.  Ok, it's not daffy.  Galacticly stupid.

It would be huge in the short term, COULD be huge in the long term.

It would take X seasons to recover.  Whether X is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 .. is unknown since you can't predict which players would transfer, which recruits would decommit, of which there would certainly be a few.

It's not easy to compete in the BE / rebuild a coaching staff and fill out a team.  What's the success rate of new coaches?  How many hires look great, then 6 years later, you're lounging in the lower half of your incredibly tough conference? 

Then there's the concept that Buzz is indeed, one of the top 25 coaches around.   Hard to predict MU could poach another Top 25 coach, or pull a "Buzz" out of a hat, which looking back, was a lottery win that a ton of people doubted.

Then add in "how" Buzz would leave.  If it looks like MU's administration is viewed as making it difficult for the program to succeed due to strict requirements / made the current program difficult to manage .. presto, you have a program potential coaches would shun.

There's no getting around it .. MU got lucky when Buzz replaced Crean.  Could we get as lucky a 2nd time? 

There is an certain chance MU doesn't recover for 10 years, not 1-5 years due to those factors.  I think most of us would consider that a huge, huge blow.

Absolutely spot on, Topper. Marquette won the lottery when Al was hired in 1964. Looks like we may have won it again in 2008. Expecting a third mini-miracle if Buzz leaves (especially if he looks pushed or unhappy) is galacticly stupid.

[Goose]

While not  in favor of the Buzz hire at the time,  I am in the camp we won the lottery with him. It is very difficult, even with deep pockets, to not skip a beat with coaching changes. Losing players, losing recruits and waiting for new style of play to go into affect takes a great deal of time. At MU that cycle is longer because we are not in the super elite group. IMO this is a perfect place for Buzz because he already has the money and the foundation built for long term success.

MU and Buzz need to know that each would survive would each other but they in better place together. If Buzz made some mistakes, big deal. It should be handled in house and in professional manner. I do believe that there is time to mend fences but waiting six months is not the answer. It all boils down to them agreeing on an goal for the program and establishing guidelines to follow. Only issue really is how deep is the bad blood on either side. I would think only parties involved know if fixable or not.

[TJ]

I figured someone would point this out...problem is MU and society to an extent have become overly politically correct.  Al McGuire's behavior was revered - standing on scorer's tables etc.  The over-reaction of the MU administration to Buzz's West Virginia dance was further evidence that "fun" can no longer be had at MU.  Buzz's dance after the Louisville game where DJO did the follow up dunk, and his West Virginia dance - went viral - and by and large anyone with a spirit of fun could appreciate the exuberance.  But not the self righteous among our fanbase/administration.

So you made a comment that you knew to be incorrect and misleading and then waited for someone to point it out before justifying it with some bs explanation that society is the problem?

[GGGG]

Regarding #2: Duh! Not only "can" Marquette hire a new coach, I'll go so far as to say that if Buzz leaves Marquette will hire a new coach. Has anyone suggested that if Buzz leaves MU will drop basketball? Have we won with other coaches? Yes. Have we also lost with other coaches? Also yes. So, pointless and complete rubbish.
Regarding #3: Marrquette had assets the last time we needed a coach: the Al, the Big East, 3 consecutive NCAA appearances, a recent Final 4, etc. Yet nobody worthy in your/chicos eyes wanted anything to do with Marquette. MU hit a home run with a guy your faction didn't think was worthy of the job, yet I gather you think this time it'll be easy to go find another diamond in the rough to replace him. Again. Complete. Rubbish.

Well...it isn't "complete rubbish."  You just feel that the chances of replacing Buzz with someone similar isn't as high as others do.  And as I have said before, I think that task would be difficult, but not impossible.

[lab_warrior]

I can say without any degree of speculation, and 100% confidence - Buzz to SMU damn near happened. 

It didn't though.  So I can be 100% certain that my own speculation that this was one of the biggest unflushed turds of a non-story (and a three-week old turd, to boot, ESPN's Jason King!) is 100% accurate.     

To those who mocked the letter writing campaign thread to state their support of Buzz - you probably can thank those people (who wrote) for Buzz still being the Head Coach at MU.  Buzz is still at MU due to 2 things and 2 things only:  Loyalty to the kids he's recruited and due to the many letters of support he received as this whole crap storm unfolded. 

Should have known we couldn't get through a thread like this to another self-important, love-the-smell-of-my-own-farts reference to THE STUPENDOUS ALMIGHTY SAVE BUZZ E-MAIL AND/OR LETTER WRITING CAMPAIGN OF 2012.  We are all shamed--no, HUMBLED--by the fact that some of you are better fans of MU basketball than us, going the extra mile of writing emails/letters based on a speculative article, and gossipy, Mean Girls-ish hearsay. Thanks to all of you, for SAVING MARQUETTE BASKETBALL.  You're the REAL heroes.

Or some of us are just amused that a bunch of over-reactors were so eager to "kiss the ring" over something that was never going to happen, then raced to the Scoop board to let the rest of us know just how important those un-important spam emails and letters really were.   

The reality is Buzz went from happy to unhappy in a matter of 1 year,

Hearsay.  Oh, right, you and others have "sources", that we're all just supposed to "believe," 'cause you're 100% sure.  Got it. 

during which time a new President and Athletic Director came into power. 

Concidence.  Oh, wait, that's right, Larry Williams and Fr. Pilarz are double secret agents bent on destroying Marquette basketball.  No one denies this.  Forgot. 

If Pilarz and L Williams manage to run off Buzz due to overreaching micromanagement, the aftermath will be quite interesting...and sad for MU Basketball moving forward.

None of this has happened.  Remember the statement a few weeks ago, where Buzz said he's Marquette's basketball coach?

Calm down already.  This, combined with the HYSTERICS of the earlier post about how MU basketball will be "irrelevant", and "worse than SLU" would make the mom from "Carrie" blush.  "THEY'RE ALL GOING TO LAUGH AT US!" 

Buzz is our coach.  He's staying as our coach.  I don't want him to leave, and am in COMPLETE AGREEMENT that he's a great coach, worth doing whatever it takes to keep him; that requires no deep thinking. 

But he might leave, too.  And I'm not going to dissolve into a puddle, render my garments, and sob uncontrollably about MU basketball turning into SLU if he does, because that would be really, REALLY pathetic.  No, sad.   

[Henry Sugar]

Sand Sharks may be the best movie ever

http://youtu.be/_qEfO5iNicI

/Napalm, baby

[ATWizJr]

It didn't though.  So I can be 100% certain that my own speculation that this was one of the biggest unflushed turds of a non-story (and a three-week old turd, to boot, ESPN's Jason King!) is 100% accurate.     


Should have known we couldn't get through a thread like this to another self-important, love-the-smell-of-my-own-farts reference to THE STUPENDOUS ALMIGHTY SAVE BUZZ E-MAIL AND/OR LETTER WRITING CAMPAIGN OF 2012.  We are all shamed--no, HUMBLED--by the fact that some of you are better fans of MU basketball than us, going the extra mile of writing emails/letters based on a speculative article, and gossipy, Mean Girls-ish hearsay. Thanks to all of you, for SAVING MARQUETTE BASKETBALL.  You're the REAL heroes.

Or some of us are just amused that a bunch of over-reactors were so eager to "kiss the ring" over something that was never going to happen, then raced to the Scoop board to let the rest of us know just how important those un-important spam emails and letters really were.   

Hearsay.  Oh, right, you and others have "sources", that we're all just supposed to "believe," 'cause you're 100% sure.  Got it. 

Concidence.  Oh, wait, that's right, Larry Williams and Fr. Pilarz are double secret agents bent on destroying Marquette basketball.  No one denies this.  Forgot. 


None of this has happened.  Remember the statement a few weeks ago, where Buzz said he's Marquette's basketball coach?

Calm down already.  This, combined with the HYSTERICS of the earlier post about how MU basketball will be "irrelevant", and "worse than SLU" would make the mom from "Carrie" blush.  "THEY'RE ALL GOING TO LAUGH AT US!" 

Buzz is our coach.  He's staying as our coach.  I don't want him to leave, and am in COMPLETE AGREEMENT that he's a great coach, worth doing whatever it takes to keep him; that requires no deep thinking. 

But he might leave, too.  And I'm not going to dissolve into a puddle, render my garments, and sob uncontrollably about MU basketball turning into SLU if he does, because that would be really, REALLY pathetic.  No, sad.   

Dreamin' is free lab warrior.

[Hoopaloop]

You can't compare replacing Crean with Buzz to what will happen if Buzz is replaced by X.

At best Crean had plateaued as to where the program was if not come back down from the highs of the '03 and '04.  Right now I'd argue that Buzz has this program at heights even Crean didn't achieve.  So we are that much higher and that much higher to fall.  If Buzz were to leave, players could leave(especially if its an admin "force out") and recruiting classes fall apart.  Personally I think we are looking very good to make a DEEP run in 2013, the admin wants to blow that up over a media black eye?  I don't get it.

At best Crean had plateaued?  Maybe he had, but if that is the case what is the at worse scenario?  I believe Buzz's first team (which would have been Crean's had he not left) was his second best team.  The DJ injury was huge.  How far that team could have gone we will never know.


I would change your comment about reaching even heights to say Buzz has consistently had great results.  The problem with Crean (there were many) is that he had great highs but awful lows.  Until Buzz gets to a Final Four it will be hard for most fans to argue he has reached the same heights, at least in a single point of excellence.  What Buzz has done so well is avoiding the dropoffs, but he hasn't quite hit the big homerun that Crean's team did in 2003.  For those that focus only on the postseason success, that is the criteria they will use.

[ATWizJr]

At best Crean had plateaued?  Maybe he had, but if that is the case what is the at worse scenario?  I believe Buzz's first team (which would have been Crean's had he not left) was his second best team.  The DJ injury was huge.  How far that team could have gone we will never know.


I would change your comment about reaching even heights to say Buzz has consistently had great results.  The problem with Crean (there were many) is that he had great highs but awful lows.  Until Buzz gets to a Final Four it will be hard for most fans to argue he has reached the same heights, at least in a single point of excellence.  What Buzz has done so well is avoiding the dropoffs, but he hasn't quite hit the big homerun that Crean's team did in 2003.  For those that focus only on the postseason success, that is the criteria they will use.

And those who were offended by the manner in which Crean left will argue that overall they are much happier with Buzz than with Crean and that Buzz has reached at least equal heights.

[Hoopaloop]

I can say without any degree of speculation, and 100% confidence - Buzz to SMU damn near happened.  To those who mocked the letter writing campaign thread to state their support of Buzz - you probably can thank those people (who wrote) for Buzz still being the Head Coach at MU.  Buzz is still at MU due to 2 things and 2 things only:  Loyalty to the kids he's recruited and due to the many letters of support he received as this whole crap storm unfolded. 

The reality is Buzz went from happy to unhappy in a matter of 1 year, during which time a new President and Athletic Director came into power.  If Pilarz and L Williams manage to run off Buzz due to overreaching micromanagement, the aftermath will be quite interesting...and sad for MU Basketball moving forward.

And you know this how that your letter writing campaign saved Buzz Williams from going to SMU?  Your 100% confidence comes from where?  It had nothing to do with grown adults sitting down, talking through what the goals of the program are, the issues that have put MU in the the spotlight for the wrong reasons, and finally getting to a point where everyone can collectively hold hands and move forward.

At some point, he is going to leave.  You do realize this, right?  

[ATWizJr]

And you know this how that your letter writing campaign saved Buzz Williams from going to SMU?  Your 100% confidence comes from where?  It had nothing to do with grown adults sitting down, talking through what the goals of the program are, the issues that have put MU in the the spotlight for the wrong reasons, and finally getting to a point where everyone can collectively hold hands and move forward.

At some point, he is going to leave.  You do realize this, right?  

Yes, we all know that at some point he is going to leave.  Stop kicking around the obvious.  The circumstances of that leaving is what is being debated in this thread.

[Hoopaloop]

Absolutely spot on, Topper. Marquette won the lottery when Al was hired in 1964. Looks like we may have won it again in 2008. Expecting a third mini-miracle if Buzz leaves (especially if he looks pushed or unhappy) is galacticly stupid.

You guys have a very narrowly focused view of the world.  You sure are pessimists.  Did MU get lucky with Kevin O'Neill?  Did they get lucky with Tom Crean?  Did they get lucky with Buzz Williams?  Did they get lucky with Hank Raymonds?

It looks to me like we are a lucky school.  Be thankful for it. Sometimes luck is better than anything else.  When you have been as lucky as we have been it becomes a pattern, not a once in a lifetime thing.   Let us not forget that Al McGuire interviewed for the position.  He was interested in coming to Marquette.  He didn't get dropped off at the 1212 building by a stork.  He saw something in MU and MU saw something in him.  The same is true for the other coaches we have had.

Have some damn respect for your program's heritage and the type of coach we have had come through here.  If Buzz leaves, then Buzz leaves and MU hires another good basketball coach and we continue to be a good basketball program.

[Hoopaloop]

+1 .. I'd add that the root cause of Buzz going unhappy is the academic and off-court behavior of some players .. that's what got the ball rolling.

Probably is the root cause and as captain of the ship, Buzz is going to take that heat.  Why wouldn't he.  It would make me unhappy to that the guys I recruited are tarnishing my program and putting us in the paper.  Buzz has got to get that through to them.  What troubles me is the surprise or anger that some here have that Buzz's bosses would not be conveying those same orders to Buzz.  It's his program, but it isn't his university.  He does have bosses and they will demand certain things that may not make him happy, and that includes if his players are acting in a manner that put MU in a bad light.  Whether fans here believe or don't believe the actions are minor or severe, that is not important.  The snowballing effect has already happened because of last year so every incident moving forward, minor or not, is going to hit the pages of the Journal because they are willing to aid in the process.

Buzz wants to get back to happy he needs to get his guys (his players) to understand what isn't making him happy.  Stay out of the papers, go to class, stop making decisions that have the program on the front page for something other than basketball.  That will make Buzz happy again.

[Canadian Dimes]

Ooops looks like Chicos...errrr Hoopaloop has taken over the thread...Im out!

[Dish]

Come on guys, you should all know by now why Buzz didn't go to SMU.

Bo Ryan wouldn't let him.

[Lennys Tap]

You guys have a very narrowly focused view of the world.  You sure are pessimists.  Did MU get lucky with Kevin O'Neill?  Did they get lucky with Tom Crean?  Did they get lucky with Buzz Williams?  Did they get lucky with Hank Raymonds?

In 31 years between Al and Buzz MU had 6 coaches. Buzz is superior to all of them, some by a country mile. I guess we might get "Crean lucky" or "O'Neil lucky" but it's a very, very longshot we'll get "Buzz lucky".

[Lennys Tap]

At best Crean had plateaued?  Maybe he had, but if that is the case what is the at worse scenario?  I believe Buzz's first team (which would have been Crean's had he not left) was his second best team.  The DJ injury was huge.  How far that team could have gone we will never know.


I would change your comment about reaching even heights to say Buzz has consistently had great results.  The problem with Crean (there were many) is that he had great highs but awful lows.  Until Buzz gets to a Final Four it will be hard for most fans to argue he has reached the same heights, at least in a single point of excellence.  What Buzz has done so well is avoiding the dropoffs, but he hasn't quite hit the big homerun that Crean's team did in 2003.  For those that focus only on the postseason success, that is the criteria they will use.

Crean's high "Highs":
1. Final 4 in 2003
2.Final 32 in 2008
3.Final 64 (lost first round) in 2002, 2006,2007
4.NIT (never made it to the Garden) in 2001, 2004, 2005.
5.No postseason in 2000.

Other than one year, please explain all these "higher highs" that Crean had relative to Buzz.

[tower912]

I respect and appreciate what Crean did for MU.   190 wins over 9 seasons is pretty darn good.   Having said that, how many coaches have managed to go to back-to-back NIT's with two future NBA players on their team?