Why the Jae Crowder love?

[Hards Alumni]

To respond to your two specific concerns.

Last season - 11.8 ppg / 6.8 rpg.  This season - 16.5 / 7.3.  

Against Syracuse - five defensive rebounds.  Against GU - six defensive rebounds.   In fact, he's nationally ranked at defensive rebounding percentage and is the best defensive rebounder on the team.  

Beyond that, he's the most efficient player on the team.  He's nationally ranked at block percentages and steal percentages.  He's nationally ranked at protecting the ball.  Crowder isn't just arguably the best player on Marquette.  He's arguably one of the best players in the country.  

Seriously, this is a topic?

Can you track his defensive numbers for me?  That is what I am mostly concerned about.  I know he is an offensive warrior, but I can't say that on defense.

[MUMac]

The fact that he can score and is a threat from three point territory is a HUGE difference. Scoring is not all that matters, but even if Mayo does not score at all he's affecting the success of our offense in a positive way. Not sure you can say that about Blue...although I have to say that Vander has played much better since BE play began. I thought he was decent against Nova and at least contributed against Syracuse. Frankly, I don't remember enough of the Georgetown game (repressed memory) but I don't recall him playing particularly poorly.

Really?  Mayo is not shooting at a significantly higher rate than Blue.  In fact, he has taken some very ill advised 3 attempts and several drives look "Blue like".  That said, I love his game and potential.  I do not mean that as a slam on Mayo, but you do on Blue.

[MerrittsMustache]

To respond to your two specific concerns.

Last season - 11.8 ppg / 6.8 rpg.  This season - 16.5 / 7.3.  

Against Syracuse - five defensive rebounds.  Against GU - six defensive rebounds.   In fact, he's nationally ranked at defensive rebounding percentage and is the best defensive rebounder on the team.  

Beyond that, he's the most efficient player on the team.  He's nationally ranked at block percentages and steal percentages.  He's nationally ranked at protecting the ball.  Crowder isn't just arguably the best player on Marquette.  He's arguably one of the best players in the country.  

Seriously, this is a topic?

Just because his numbers have gone up, that doesn't necessarily mean he's a better player. He's playing more minutes, taking more shots and the team lost 2 of their top 4 players. That also doesn't change the fact that his defense is at times awful, he disappears for long stretches at a time and he doesn't block out on a consistent basis. That FT late in the Syracuse game, for example.

Not saying he isn't a very valuable part of the team, but he shouldn't be getting a pass on the team's recent struggles.

[Henry Sugar]

Can you track his defensive numbers for me?  That is what I am mostly concerned about.  I know he is an offensive warrior, but I can't say that on defense.

Defensive Rebounding% - 19.0% (#245 nationally - next best for contributors on MU is Otule 16.7%)
Steal Percentage - 3.6% (#135 nationally - roughly tied with Gardner and ahead of Vander)
Block Percentage - 3.1% (#420 nationally - behind Jamil Wilson at 5% / #197)

For Stop Percentage (# of possessions he creates a stop), he's #2 on the team behind Otule at 64%.  Otule is 65% but doesn't get any of the games like GU, Vandy, LSU, etc.   Next best behind those two is Gardner at 59%, and then it's Jamail Jones (55%) and Vander (54%). 

[wojosdojo]

I think Jae thinks his game is great since he fills up the stat sheet.

This is where the bad shot selection would come from.

[MUMac]

To respond to your two specific concerns.

Last season - 11.8 ppg / 6.8 rpg.  This season - 16.5 / 7.3.  

Against Syracuse - five defensive rebounds.  Against GU - six defensive rebounds.   In fact, he's nationally ranked at defensive rebounding percentage and is the best defensive rebounder on the team.  

Beyond that, he's the most efficient player on the team.  He's nationally ranked at block percentages and steal percentages.  He's nationally ranked at protecting the ball.  Crowder isn't just arguably the best player on Marquette.  He's arguably one of the best players in the country.  

Seriously, this is a topic?

'Stache's comment about boxing out does not reflect in the stats.  It is visible and a point of frustration to me.  If he puts a body on someone, he could have even more rebounds.  The odd thing, he had done the hard part - getting the inside position.  But he gives that up too frequently by not bodying the defender.  Add to that, he is not a quick leaper (as evidenced by rebounds on FT's), thus making the technique/fundamentals/position more important.

The other complaint people have with Crowder is shot selection.  You can see it in the eyes of some of the players as well.  They appear to get frustrated with his shot selection.  On Saturday, he chucked up three 3's early in the shot clock when MU had runs going in the 2nd half.  Each one led to a transition 3 on the other end.

Lastly, he really is not a good defender.  His defense is one reason making the help defense necessary.  People rotate down to cover his lapse, which leaves a man open.

I like Crowder and MU would be in a world of hurt without him.  I do, though, see the flaws and they hurt MU.

[Henry Sugar]

Just because his numbers have gone up, that doesn't necessarily mean he's a better player. He's playing more minutes, taking more shots and the team lost 2 of their top 4 players. That also doesn't change the fact that his defense is at times awful, he disappears for long stretches at a time and he doesn't block out on a consistent basis. That FT late in the Syracuse game, for example.

Not saying he isn't a very valuable part of the team, but he shouldn't be getting a pass on the team's recent struggles.

Actually, considering he's more efficient than last year while increasing his scoring, it does mean he's a better player.  And while he may not be the perfect defensive player, he's the best defensive player on Marquette.  Of course, that's not really saying much.  Finally, I would like you to point out a player that does not disappear for long stretches at a time. 

Of all the issues with this team, Jae is last.  Absolutely last.

[Henry Sugar]

 
'Stache's comment about boxing out does not reflect in the stats.  It is visible and a point of frustration to me.  If he puts a body on someone, he could have even more rebounds.  The odd thing, he had done the hard part - getting the inside position.  But he gives that up too frequently by not bodying the defender.  Add to that, he is not a quick leaper (as evidenced by rebounds on FT's), thus making the technique/fundamentals/position more important.

The other complaint people have with Crowder is shot selection.  You can see it in the eyes of some of the players as well.  They appear to get frustrated with his shot selection.  On Saturday, he chucked up three 3's early in the shot clock when MU had runs going in the 2nd half.  Each one led to a transition 3 on the other end.

Lastly, he really is not a good defender.  His defense is one reason making the help defense necessary.  People rotate down to cover his lapse, which leaves a man open.

I like Crowder and MU would be in a world of hurt without him.  I do, though, see the flaws and they hurt MU.

I see the flaws with his game.  Crowder isn't perfect, and he isn't even close to it.  However, when it comes to defense, I place more blame with Buzz's defensive scheme than on individual players.

Criticizing Jae's shot selection is availability bias.  He's the most efficient player on the team.  Were those poorly timed shots in the second half of one game?  Yes.  Are those largely reflective of his overall game?  I say no.

In the last four min of the game, Jae shot 1-2 from three, assisted on DJO's three, and had a steal (that Jr promptly turned over).

Jae is the least of MU's concerns.  Why is this a thread again?

[JTBMU7]

Of all the issues with this team, Jae is last.  Absolutely last.

+1.

You can find fault with any player if you try hard enough, especially ones with the green light from the coaches to shoot. Your best players will be told to shoot when they feel they should and that may result in a bad shot or over aggressive play at times, but that's what you get with talented, athletic, confident players.

Jae will be all conference this year, BTW, i'm just shocked that there is this much discussion about his value to the team...

[Hards Alumni]

Jae is the least of MU's concerns.  Why is this a thread again?

Can we at least agree that DJO is getting pass from a lot of people here?

[MUMac]

You can find fault with any player if you try hard enough, especially ones with the green light from the coaches to shoot. Your best players will be told to shoot when they feel they should and that may result in a bad shot or over aggressive play at times, but that's what you get with talented, athletic, confident players.

I think that was the purpose of this thread.  Jae has been free from any criticism, until this thread.  At the same times, others are excoriated.  He has flaws, but his strengths outweigh his flaws.  Unfortunately, that is not acceptable for some players ...  

[MUMac]

Can we at least agree that DJO is getting pass from a lot of people here?

+1

[Henry Sugar]

Can we at least agree that DJO is getting pass from a lot of people here?

Absolutely.  I think *this* is a much more reasonable discussion.

[MU82]

Just as Jimmy took over the leadership role from Lazar, I think lots of MU folks were hoping Jae would take over now that Jimmy is gone. I'm not sure, exactly, how one measures leadership, but I think there's a perception Jae hasn't succeeded in this regard.

On the floor, Jae and Jimmy are such different players. Jae prefers playing outside on offense and is not an especially good finisher. Jimmy could take it inside. Jimmy could guard anybody; defense is not Jae's strength.

Together, they were a nice combo, but Jae has nobody in the frontcourt to play off of this season. And when DJO is struggling, as has been the case quite often lately, it makes Jae's job all the more difficult. Jimmy had Jae last season and Lazar the year before that; it does make a difference.

Even as a rebounder, Jae is not the greatest at boxing out and out-hustling opponents. The same certainly can be said of Davante, so they aren't the best combo when it comes to controlling the boards. Again, compared to Jimmy-Otule-Jae, we have problems.

All that being said, I appreciate the things Jae does well and agree he is the least of our problems. Were every MU player as good at his role as Jae is at his, we'd only have one or two losses.

[MUMac]

I see the flaws with his game.  Crowder isn't perfect, and he isn't even close to it.  However, when it comes to defense, I place more blame with Buzz's defensive scheme than on individual players.

Criticizing Jae's shot selection is availability bias.  He's the most efficient player on the team.  Were those poorly timed shots in the second half of one game?  Yes.  Are those largely reflective of his overall game?  I say no.

In the last four min of the game, Jae shot 1-2 from three, assisted on DJO's three, and had a steal (that Jr promptly turned over).

Jae is the least of MU's concerns.  Why is this a thread again?

I never said they were reflective of his overall game.  He does, though, take the ill advised shot.  A legitimate complaint.  Fortunately, his overall games is able to ovecome that - which is why he plays so many minutes.

[GGGG]

Just as Jimmy took over the leadership role from Lazar, I think lots of MU folks were hoping Jae would take over now that Jimmy is gone. I'm not sure, exactly, how one measures leadership, but I think there's a perception Jae hasn't succeeded in this regard.

On the floor, Jae and Jimmy are such different players. Jae prefers playing outside on offense and is not an especially good finisher. Jimmy could take it inside. Jimmy could guard anybody; defense is not Jae's strength.

Together, they were a nice combo, but Jae has nobody in the frontcourt to play off of this season. And when DJO is struggling, as has been the case quite often lately, it makes Jae's job all the more difficult. Jimmy had Jae last season and Lazar the year before that; it does make a difference.

Even as a rebounder, Jae is not the greatest at boxing out and out-hustling opponents. The same certainly can be said of Davante, so they aren't the best combo when it comes to controlling the boards. Again, compared to Jimmy-Otule-Jae, we have problems.

All that being said, I appreciate the things Jae does well and agree he is the least of our problems. Were every MU player as good at his role as Jae is at his, we'd only have one or two losses.

I think Jae is a better interior scorer than you might be giving him credit for.  The problem is that he likes to float out to the 3 pt line too often.

[MUMac]

Just as Jimmy took over the leadership role from Lazar, I think lots of MU folks were hoping Jae would take over now that Jimmy is gone. I'm not sure, exactly, how one measures leadership, but I think there's a perception Jae hasn't succeeded in this regard.

On the floor, Jae and Jimmy are such different players. Jae prefers playing outside on offense and is not an especially good finisher. Jimmy could take it inside. Jimmy could guard anybody; defense is not Jae's strength.

Together, they were a nice combo, but Jae has nobody in the frontcourt to play off of this season. And when DJO is struggling, as has been the case quite often lately, it makes Jae's job all the more difficult. Jimmy had Jae last season and Lazar the year before that; it does make a difference.

Even as a rebounder, Jae is not the greatest at boxing out and out-hustling opponents. The same certainly can be said of Davante, so they aren't the best combo when it comes to controlling the boards. Again, compared to Jimmy-Otule-Jae, we have problems.

All that being said, I appreciate the things Jae does well and agree he is the least of our problems. Were every MU player as good at his role as Jae is at his, we'd only have one or two losses.

Very good post.  Interesting comparison to Jimmy last year.  Jae ended up being Jimmy to Lazar's Jimmy.  I was hopoing Wilson would be that guy this year.  Unfortunately, he is not as strong on the inside as I hoped.  He could, though, take the midrange part of the game that could benefit Crowder's play.

[wojosdojo]

Just as Jimmy took over the leadership role from Lazar, I think lots of MU folks were hoping DJO Jae would take over now that Jimmy is gone. I'm not sure, exactly, how one measures leadership, but I think there's a perception Jae hasn't succeeded in this regard.

Dont know if its what people are implying but Jae certainly isnt the sole leader of the team.

[Golden Avalanche]

Just as Jimmy took over the leadership role from Lazar, I think lots of MU folks were hoping Jae would take over now that Jimmy is gone. I'm not sure, exactly, how one measures leadership, but I think there's a perception Jae hasn't succeeded in this regard.

On the floor, Jae and Jimmy are such different players. Jae prefers playing outside on offense and is not an especially good finisher. Jimmy could take it inside. Jimmy could guard anybody; defense is not Jae's strength.

Together, they were a nice combo, but Jae has nobody in the frontcourt to play off of this season. And when DJO is struggling, as has been the case quite often lately, it makes Jae's job all the more difficult. Jimmy had Jae last season and Lazar the year before that; it does make a difference.

Even as a rebounder, Jae is not the greatest at boxing out and out-hustling opponents. The same certainly can be said of Davante, so they aren't the best combo when it comes to controlling the boards. Again, compared to Jimmy-Otule-Jae, we have problems.

All that being said, I appreciate the things Jae does well and agree he is the least of our problems. Were every MU player as good at his role as Jae is at his, we'd only have one or two losses.

For the most part, I think you are on target.

I'd agree with Sultan on undervaluing Crowder's inside game. It's there but since he floats out so much it's ignored for the most part.

One area I quibble with is leadership. I stated last year and stand by it now, MU suffered from a lack of it on the court and it showed in the results. I don't think that has changed this year. It is a collective leadership whereas when all is going well the road bumps can be smoothed but when adversity sinks in, there is a void to where one single player can lift the team.

[ErickJD08]

Very well said.

In previous Vander discussions, I've said that he reminds me of a smaller version of Terrence Williams from Louisville - not a tremendous shooter/scorer but a guy who contributes in a lot of different ways. Just for comparison...

Blue as a soph: 27.3 min, 8.9 pts, 4.3 reb, 3.6 ast, 0.3 blks, 1.6 stl, 1.57 A/TO, 42.4% FG, 29.4% 3P, 62.3% FT, 1.21 PPS

TW as a soph: 33.0 min, 12.4 pts, 7.0 reb, 3.8 ast, 0.7 blks, 1.3 stl, 1.59 A/TO, 36.7% FG, 26.1% 3P, 60.4% FT, 0.98 PPS

By his senior season, Williams was arguably the most valuable player on one of the best teams in the country. Not saying that will necessarily be the case with Blue, but just because Blue's game isn't where some fans believe it should be, that doesn't mean it won't ever get there.

Why do people just look at season averages?  Box scores do not really tell the story nor do season averages.  It is a statistical fact that Blue has scored the majority of his points against bad teams.  He struggled last year against BE teams and he is struggling this year.  TW tallied double figure point totals in 13 of 18 BE games.  He had 4 double doubles in BE play.  Again, these are stats and this does not tell the whole story.  I get that.

First off, they are two completely different players in my opinion.  Blue stats are falling off a cliff now.  People say great defender.  He has 2 steals and one block in three BE games.  People compare Mayo's FG% to Blue.  You can't if you actually watch the games.  Gardner shoots 59% from the field.  Most would say, "Well, he is a big so he shoots much closer to the basket and therefore his FG% should be better."  Absolutely correct.  But Blue shoots the majority of his shots within 5 feet and he shoots 43%.  That is why can not compare FG% of Mayo to Blue.  Mayo shoots 3's, 17 footers, and lay ups while Blue primarily shoots layups.

Finally, the "love" for Mayo (even though I think it is cooling for most) is because when a freshmen produces like he has, you are playing with house money.  As a fan or program, you can not anticipate a freshmen coming and contributing like he has.  And he gets a pass on his mistakes in many ways because he is still a freshmen.  Blue is not a freshmen.  Blue has played tons of minutes and he continues to make freshmen mistakes as a sophomore.

[GGGG]

First off, they are two completely different players in my opinion.  Blue stats are falling off a cliff now. 

But see, they really aren't falling off a cliff.  He is stealing the ball and scoring less, which are probably connected.

However his rebounds, assists, turnovers are all not significantly different.

And again, steals aren't a great measure of defense.  This is the same absurd philosophy that suggested that Jerel McNeal was a better defender than Dominic James.

Again, he is not a "marginal player" on this team...

[ErickJD08]

But see, they really aren't falling off a cliff.  He is stealing the ball and scoring less, which are probably connected.

However his rebounds, assists, turnovers are all not significantly different.

And again, steals aren't a great measure of defense.  This is the same absurd philosophy that suggested that Jerel McNeal was a better defender than Dominic James.

Again, he is not a "marginal player" on this team...

I will completely agree that low steals=bad defense.  But he is getting 0 blocks and .667 steals per BE game, that isn't great defense either.  And at the same time, you can't say, DJO 44%, Mayo 43%, Blue 42% from the field so they have similar offensive ability.  DJO and Mayo score in a variety of ways while Blue scores primarily through uncontested or little resistance lay ups.  Ultimately, his athleticism allows him to get into a position to shoot a high percentage shot and yet he shoots on a low percentage.  Dude should have about 13ppg and this team desperately needs a third scorer. 

[MerrittsMustache]

Why do people just look at season averages?  Box scores do not really tell the story nor do season averages.  It is a statistical fact that Blue has scored the majority of his points against bad teams.  He struggled last year against BE teams and he is struggling this year.  TW tallied double figure point totals in 13 of 18 BE games.  He had 4 double doubles in BE play.  Again, these are stats and this does not tell the whole story.  I get that.

So basically it's all about scoring points for you, huh? Yes, TW scored double figures in 13 of 18 BE games but he shot 36% from floor in doing so. He averaged 12 shots per game and made 4.3 of them. He scored just 199 points on 191 FG attempts. If Blue was putting up those numbers you'd be satisfied with his offensive game?

[GGGG]

And at the same time, you can't say, DJO 44%, Mayo 43%, Blue 42% from the field so they have similar offensive ability. 

I never said that.  What I have said from the beginning that he adds a lot of value to the team based on what he does on the defensive end, his attacking the defense, and rebounding very well for his position.  Yeah the team needs a third scorer.  But that's really not what he does...but what he does adds value.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I will completely agree that low steals=bad defense.  But he is getting 0 blocks and .667 steals per BE game, that isn't great defense either.  And at the same time, you can't say, DJO 44%, Mayo 43%, Blue 42% from the field so they have similar offensive ability.  DJO and Mayo score in a variety of ways while Blue scores primarily through uncontested or little resistance lay ups.  Ultimately, his athleticism allows him to get into a position to shoot a high percentage shot and yet he shoots on a low percentage.  Dude should have about 13ppg and this team desperately needs a third scorer.  

Why do people just look at season averages? Box scores do not really tell the story nor do season averages.  It is a statistical fact that Blue has scored the majority of his points against bad teams (isn't that true for most/all of the players?).  

Dude, you're kind of all over the map here. Sometimes stats are good indicators, sometimes you can't use them.

We are only 3 games into Big East play, so it's tough to make a lot of sweeping judgements on that, right?