Why the Jae Crowder love?

[ErickJD08]

So basically it's all about scoring points for you, huh? Yes, TW scored double figures in 13 of 18 BE games but he shot 36% from floor in doing so. He averaged 12 shots per game and made 4.3 of them. He scored just 199 points on 191 FG attempts. If Blue was putting up those numbers you'd be satisfied with his offensive game?

I never said that.  What I have said from the beginning that he adds a lot of value to the team based on what he does on the defensive end, his attacking the defense, and rebounding very well for his position.  Yeah the team needs a third scorer.  But that's really not what he does...but what he does adds value.

MM, I can't stress enough that you have to look at his play and not his numbers.  I watched every game for the past few years.  Blue tooks very uncomfortable driving and finishing.  I don't need stats to see what kind of player he is because I watch every game.  There is no doubt that he rebounds well and he is very active too where he creates rebounding opportunities for other players.  Unfortunately, scoring is an important aspect of the game and that is why he will probably start splitting minutes if he can't produce.

South, you said "That's really not what he does..." but he does do that.  He drives into the lane with an much frequency as anyone else on the team.  The problem is he blows lay ups.  If he finished at a decent rate, he would be that third scorer and this team's offense would be that much more dynamic.  

[ErickJD08]

Dude, you're kind of all over the map here. Sometimes stats are good indicators, sometimes you can't use them.

We are only 3 games into Big East play, so it's tough to make a lot of sweeping judgements on that, right?

Stats are not important in judging a player in my opinion.  But people use stats to make their opinions about players.  When I use stats, I am using stats to show that simply showing box score stats can paint a variety of pictures.

All my points are based around that his athletic ability put him in a position to shoot a high percentage shot and he shoots a low percentage and has a high turnover rate.  He has had all the opportunity in the world that a freshmen and sophomore can ask for to improve and he hasn't improved that much.  When he drives, the majority of the time, it results in a blown lay up, a poor kick out pass, or a turnover.  I think it is time to start looking in some other directions.  Blue has the makings to be a solid sixth man.  I think we should start looking to see if we can get some improvements/production from giving more minutes to Jones and Mayo.

[Silkk the Shaka]

ErickJD08 - do you give Blue any credit for being one of the sparks (along with Cadougan) for the 2nd half at Cuse?  He was energetic and constantly pushing it which is exactly what we needed.  He also hit a big three late in the first when we couldn't get anything going.  He and Cadougan were driving me crazy in the first but they were our 2nd half co-MVP's.  If we can get both of them to play more like the 2nd half and less like the first, this team will be just fine.

BTW - If Blue puts up 9 pts, 7 boards, 5 assists, 3 to's on 3/5 from 2 and 1/3 from 3 every game I'd take that in a heartbeat.  Obviously rather see FT's in his usual high 60% range than 0/4 but you get the gist.

[ErickJD08]

ErickJD08 - do you give Blue any credit for being one of the sparks (along with Cadougan) for the 2nd half at Cuse?  He was energetic and constantly pushing it which is exactly what we needed.  He also hit a big three late in the first when we couldn't get anything going.  He and Cadougan were driving me crazy in the first but they were our 2nd half co-MVP's.  If we can get both of them to play more like the 2nd half and less like the first, this team will be just fine.

BTW - If Blue puts up 9 pts, 7 boards, 5 assists, 3 to's on 3/5 from 2 and 1/3 from 3 every game I'd take that in a heartbeat.  Obviously rather see FT's in his usual high 60% range than 0/4 but you get the gist.

Again, he gets credit for those stats.  Those are great stats for a 6th man, not an athetic guard in a uptempto offense starting for his second year.  His shooting percentage is OK but not for a guard that primarily shoots within 5 feet of the rim. 

[MerrittsMustache]

Again, he gets credit for those stats.  Those are great stats for a 6th man, not an athetic guard in a uptempto offense starting for his second year.  His shooting percentage is OK but not for a guard that primarily shoots within 5 feet of the rim.  

I thought stats don't matter? Also, Vander only started 12 of 37 games last year.

Finally, find me a 6th man who averages 7 boards, 5 assists.

[GGGG]

South, you said "That's really not what he does..." but he does do that.  He drives into the lane with an much frequency as anyone else on the team.  The problem is he blows lay ups.  If he finished at a decent rate, he would be that third scorer and this team's offense would be that much more dynamic.  

So is this really what it breaks down to for you?  He *should* be more of a scorer but isn't?

I'm trying to limit my evaluation of him on what he actually does when he is on the floor, not some sort of projection on what he should be doing that he isn't.

Again, he gets credit for those stats.  Those are great stats for a 6th man, not an athetic guard in a uptempto offense starting for his second year.  

He didn't regularly start last year.  

His stats to date are roughly equal to Buycks from last year.  DB was a better shooter....VB a better rebounder...exact same number of TOs.  Roughly equal ppg and apg.   And Buycks started most of last year.

[CTWarrior]

I hate that a Blue discussion has hi-jacked yet another thread.  But my two cents.

Blue should shoot a better percentage relative to other players because we don't ask him to shoot unless he's wide open or it's a layup.  Guys like Mayo and DJO are counted on to take shots, especially when the clock is running out or we can't find a shot.  We ask/need Mayo to be a scorer when he comes into the game.  If he's not scoring he's not playing.  Blue's shooting better % because he hardly ever shoots unless its a really really good shot.  If all our players were that way we'd have a lot of shot clock violations.

As far as Blue vs Cadougan at the point, I think the offense runs better with Cadougan at the point and the team plays better offense when he's running things.  But Blue is inexperienced at the position and is likely to have a strong improvement curve as he gets used to the job and the rest of the team gets used to him.  He is a more creative player than Cadougan, but also more reckless (or careless if you prefer).  Blue is more likely to make a great pass and more likely to make a terrible pass.  Cadougan probably has a better handle, but neither of them are as good ball-on-a-string ballhandlers as you'd like your point to be, so neither of them handle hard ball pressure terribly well, as they tend to just try to avoid turning it over as opposed to initiating offense.  Obviously Blue is the much better defender.

In the end, PG is like all of our positions.  we have imperfect players and we try to mix and match them as best we can to get a positive result.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Again, he gets credit for those stats.  Those are great stats for a 6th man, not an athetic guard in a uptempto offense starting for his second year.  His shooting percentage is OK but not for a guard that primarily shoots within 5 feet of the rim. 

A 6th man in the NBA, yes.  If he averages 9/7/5 the rest of conference play those are valuable college starters' stats with DJO & Crowder as the 1st and 2nd option followed by Mayo and Gardner as 3rd and 4th.  He's our second best passer after Cadougan and our third best rebounder after Crowder and probably Gardner.  Yet he has no place in our starting lineup?

[bamamarquettefan]

I just don't get it.

I appreciate what he does, but he's an junker of a player.

Why isn't anyone hating on him? He has not progressed as a player. He's one of the worst defenders on the team. He disappears for long stretches.

His game isn't that good. He is our only option, but as the focal point of the offense we need a better player.

It is amazing that everytime I got a road game people come up to me in awe of how awesome Crowder is, but then we still have a few posts like this.

Well, sorry I was off duty with a client issue when you posted this - couldn't disagree more.  With Otule out we'd be dead without his ability to give us someone to muscle up against 6-11 guys and steal and block shots.  By far the most important thing a defender does is grab rebounds to end possessions, so Crowder is among the top few players in the country in overall offensive performance and never turning the ball over, and also among the leaders in shooting, defensive rebounds, blocks and steals if you just run down the line in Ken Pom.  Statistically he is easily one of the top 5 players in the Big East this year.  When he is off shooting, he is still extremely valuable, while with a guy like DJO, he can dominate a game when he is on but when it isn't he really doesn't give you anything.

So I just thought to myself, maybe I'm just not seeing that his on-ball defense is just so bad that it offsets everything else.  So I sought out some expert, non-Marquette input on this, and will just say he is viewed as an excellent defender who can guard multiple positions, and has to do so due to Marquette's current height problems.

The only thing I will agree on is that if you are going to compare him to Lazar, he will lose that battle.  Clearly, Lazar was one of a kind on so many levels. 

But we are 9-7 and hoping for an NIT bid without him.

[MerrittsMustache]

It is amazing that everytime I got a road game people come up to me in awe of how awesome Crowder is, but then we still have a few posts like this.

Well, sorry I was off duty with a client issue when you posted this - couldn't disagree more.  With Otule out we'd be dead without his ability to give us someone to muscle up against 6-11 guys and steal and block shots.  By far the most important thing a defender does is grab rebounds to end possessions, so Crowder is among the top few players in the country in overall offensive performance and never turning the ball over, and also among the leaders in shooting, defensive rebounds, blocks and steals if you just run down the line in Ken Pom.  Statistically he is easily one of the top 5 players in the Big East this year.  When he is off shooting, he is still extremely valuable, while with a guy like DJO, he can dominate a game when he is on but when it isn't he really doesn't give you anything.

So I just thought to myself, maybe I'm just not seeing that his on-ball defense is just so bad that it offsets everything else.  So I sought out some expert, non-Marquette input on this, and will just say he is viewed as an excellent defender who can guard multiple positions, and has to do so due to Marquette's current height problems.

The only thing I will agree on is that if you are going to compare him to Lazar, he will lose that battle.  Clearly, Lazar was one of a kind on so many levels.  

But we are 9-7 and hoping for an NIT bid without him.

Really? People just randomly approach you in the arena, jaw-to-the-floor to tell you how good Crowder is?  

Of course, MU would struggle without him...and they'd be better if they had Sullinger or Zeller instead. That's not the issue. I don't think that anyone is saying that he's not a good player or not a big contributor to the team. The point is that there are numerous threads bashing Blue for everything from not scoring enough to having too many almost TOs to not giving a "slap of 5" when prompted, yet Crowder can let a bigger, slower guy drive right around him on the biggest possession of a game and there's barely a word written about it. There are long stretches of games where you wouldn't even know he's on the court - not mentioned. He is often out of position on D and he rarely boxes out - no threads about those issues. In fact, posters often excuse those things. If the most important thing that a defender does is rebound, how much would Jae's value skyrocket if he actually started boxing out from time to time?

Look, I'm not trying to knock Jae. He's one of my favorite players on the team. I want him to do well and he seems like a good kid. The problem is that he hasn't progressed all that much from last season. Maybe we've just been spoiled with Lazar and Jimmy and I was expecting to much from him. Maybe he is what he is: a solid role player being forced into being "the man."

[RJax55]

Look, I'm not trying to knock Jae. He's one of my favorite players on the team. I want him to do well and he seems like a good kid. The problem is that he hasn't progressed all that much from last season. Maybe we've just been spoiled with Lazar and Jimmy and I was expecting to much from him. Maybe he is what he is: a solid role player being forced into being "the man."

I think Jae is better than he was last year because he is much more consistent on a game to game basis. Much of that is due to doing a better job at avoiding foul trouble in first half of games ('Nova & UW-Madison being the exceptions).

I say this about Jae, he is really active and the guy plays his ass off out on the court. However, his game is not fundamentally sound on the defensive end; see rotations, awareness and boxing out. However, I have a hard time getting on him, because he does play so hard and I really think he is getting everything he can out of his talents.

Just compared Jae athletically to Lazar or JFB... He's nowhere close to those two guys. Yet, he is an extremely productive and efficient player, putting up all-around numbers that are very similar to those two.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Stats are not important in judging a player in my opinion.  But people use stats to make their opinions about players.  When I use stats, I am using stats to show that simply showing box score stats can paint a variety of pictures.

All my points are based around that his athletic ability put him in a position to shoot a high percentage shot and he shoots a low percentage and has a high turnover rate.  He has had all the opportunity in the world that a freshmen and sophomore can ask for to improve and he hasn't improved that much.  When he drives, the majority of the time, it results in a blown lay up, a poor kick out pass, or a turnover.  I think it is time to start looking in some other directions.  Blue has the makings to be a solid sixth man.  I think we should start looking to see if we can get some improvements/production from giving more minutes to Jones and Mayo.

It's ironic that Vander's game doesn't translate well to box scores (because he doesn't score), and the guy saying we shouldn't use box scores is the guy who seems to be hardest on him.

I actually think Vander's game is impressive in person because of everything he is able to do. As the kid develops, I think he could dominate a game while only score 8pts because of all his other strengths.

[ErickJD08]

It's ironic that Vander's game doesn't translate well to box scores (because he doesn't score), and the guy saying we shouldn't use box scores is the guy who seems to be hardest on him.

I actually think Vander's game is impressive in person because of everything he is able to do. As the kid develops, I think he could dominate a game while only score 8pts because of all his other strengths.

It is impressive to consistently miss lay ups and have your shot swatted into the 5th row every game.

I am not sure if I have ever seen a guard dominate a game with multiple turnovers, no steals, no blocks, a low FG% while scoring only 8 points.  Maybe if he grabs 30 boards... if he does that, I'll give it to you, he would be dominating.

[bilsu]

IMO, Crowder hasn't progressed since the end of last season. That's what is so frustrating. That and his unwillingness to put a body on somebody and actually box them out.

Do you realize how much time he missed last year because of foul trouble. To say he has not progressed is not realistic. Last year the front court defenses would have focus on Butler. This year they are focusing on Jae. They do not need to focus on Blue and Wilson. Gardner they do.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

It is impressive to consistently miss lay ups and have your shot swatted into the 5th row every game.

I am not sure if I have ever seen a guard dominate a game with multiple turnovers, no steals, no blocks, a low FG% while scoring only 8 points.  Maybe if he grabs 30 boards... if he does that, I'll give it to you, he would be dominating.

A wise man once said that box scores don't tell the whole story.

[ErickJD08]

A wise man once said that box scores don't tell the whole story.

A wise man told me he was impressed my blown layups. Have fun with the head in the sand buddy.

[bamamarquettefan]

Really? People just randomly approach you in the arena, jaw-to-the-floor to tell you how good Crowder is?  

As hard as it is to believe, this does happen, but it isn't random.  It is because I am a nerd who does things like show up over an hour early for the LSU game, so the other nuts who are there that early from LSU figure I'm a guy to come over too.  Then I stay for a half hour after the loss, and several fans came up to me because they couldn't believe I told them before the game (when they were begging for mercy) that they were going to beat us if we let the game slow down.  So don't envision someone seeking me out from amoung 8,000 fans, rather they seek me out as the lonely guy surrounded by lots of empty seats :-)

But Jae has progressed tremendously this year, but was really fantastic last year too.  I can show it with numbers, but obviously we can disagree on subjective matters.  And I did misspeak on one item - I said defensive rebounding was the most important thing you can do on defense, and i meant the most important you can measure objectively on defense.  A great on ball defender who alters shots and forces turnovers is more important, we just can't measure it.

While we were spoiled by Lazar, I do believe guys went by Jimmy much more consistently than they go by Crowder.  Then Jimmy had his big breakthrough when he started being used to go out and take on guards away from the basket, and he was really good at that and i believe it was the difference in millions of dollars for him.

But no, I wasn't trying to get into the criticism of Blue.  Blue certainly can hurt the team when his offense is so bad it offsets his great defense, but against Syracuse he showed the explosiveness he can have going to the court - and if he can just do that on offense then he is a great defensive player.  Obviously he can't finish great drives with 0 for 4 from the line, but except for that game, hsi free throws have looked better too, and that 3-pointer really gives me hope.  If he ever hits one early and start coming out on him, his drive will become so much more lethal - but i do admit I was holding my breath when it went up.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

A wise man told me he was impressed my blown layups. Have fun with the head in the sand buddy.

I agree that Vander needs to get stronger and more under control to finish in the lane.

But, I also know that he is a work in progress, so my expectations are for him to miss some shots (yes, even lay-ups).

Our evaluations of Vander are similar. Our reactions to his play are vastly different. You've set different expectations for him, and thus you are disappointed.

He's a role player on a team of 2 "stars" and 5-6 role players. That's it. No more, no less. I'm not mad at a soph. for having holes in his game and being a role player.

[brewcity77]

I'm surprised Mayo isn't getting more criticism of late. 33% shooting in the last 6, under 8 ppg, and an abysmal 1:3 assist to turnover ratio.

It seems like MU fans are quick to point out the flaws of highly rated players (Blue, Jones, NJCAA POY Crowder) but never want to find fault with lower profile (Gardner, Mayo) recruits.

[MUMac]

I'm surprised Mayo isn't getting more criticism of late. 33% shooting in the last 6, under 8 ppg, and an abysmal 1:3 assist to turnover ratio.

It seems like MU fans are quick to point out the flaws of highly rated players (Blue, Jones, NJCAA POY Crowder) but never want to find fault with lower profile (Gardner, Mayo) recruits.

I have pointed that out and the response back has been "he's a freshman" (although, he is nearly 18 months older than Blue and Blue never received that defense) and that he is a better shooter (I take that to mean early results outweigh recent history).

Personally, I think Mayo has hit the freshman wall.  Typically that lasts 2-3 weeks.  I am expecting him to break back this week or next.

[MUMac]

I agree that Vander needs to get stronger and more under control to finish in the lane.

But, I also know that he is a work in progress, so my expectations are for him to miss some shots (yes, even lay-ups).

Our evaluations of Vander are similar. Our reactions to his play are vastly different. You've set different expectations for him, and thus you are disappointed.

He's a role player on a team of 2 "stars" and 5-6 role players. That's it. No more, no less. I'm not mad at a soph. for having holes in his game and being a role player.

+1 Well stated.  I bolded one paragraph for emphasis.

[Stretchdeltsig]

I hope MUMAC is correct that Mayo has hit the freshman wall and will come out of it in 2-3 weeks.  We need Mayo to start contributing big time with his scoring and D.

[harigtad]

to me crowder is our best and smartest player!
we play best when he is on the floor and really struggle when he is not in there
not always flashy and for sure too many 3's but his toughness is contagious and keeps us in games down low (esp. in the big east) with a guard dominated lineup...

[🏀]

Loving me some Jae tonight. Two dumb early fouls gives Davante huge minutes, a career game, and hopefully the momentum to kept himself mentally strong dfor the rest of the year.

[brewcity77]

Jae surprised me tonight. Foul trouble early on and invisible at times in the first half, yet still managed to tally 15 points, 9 rebounds, and 4 steals. It was a DJO-like performance...quiet but effective.