Joe Paterno Exit

[Lighthouse 84]

I won't pretend to know what happened, but what's been reported is pretty damning.

That said, a grand jury report is a long, long way from FACT. A grand jury report is exclusively what the authorities want you to know about a set of allegations, and nothing more.
If a grand jury report were FACT, there would be no such thing as (or need for ) a trial. Everyone would be guilty. Because the grand jury report says so.

Agreed as far as trials and jail, etc. for anyone, including Sandusky.  But as far as losing their jobs, the "findings of fact" set forth by the grand jury, which include direct testimony from McQueary and Paterno, are more than enough.

[mu03eng]

Read the Grand Jury Report if you want FACTS.  In particular, read about Victim 2.  Here's an excerpt:

"As the graduate assistant put the sneakers in his locker, he looked into the shower.  he saw a naked boy, Victim 2,. whose age he estimated to be ten years old,with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky."

You might want to get your head out of the sand or your arse, wherever it may be, and look at the findings of FACT.  We know the graduate assistant to be McQueary and we know he reported the fact that Sandusky was naked with the naked 10 year old to Paterno.  We also know Paterno reported it to his superiors.

Absolutely those are facts, where is the smoking gun that Paterno knew more?  He reported the incident to the administration and the campus police, is he suppose to launch his own independent investigation?  My point in all of this is that Paterno and McQueary and everyone else in this whole business may have been wildly wrong, but we don't know that for sure and we won't know that for sure because everyone is demanding a shotgun blast to the head.  When everything goes quiet none of the correct information will ever see the light of day and that is a shame because we won't have learned anything from this.

The media's job should be to determine facts and connect dots, none of which is happening.  Nobody has put a timeline together of who knew what and when they knew it.  Until I see that I'm going wait before picking up my pitchfork, I have it on standby, but I'm not ready to use it yet.

Or we could go your route, call names, scream oh the humanity, sit proudly and talk about how you were one of the million people who expressed your outrage over a situation you knew half of the facts.  Its easy to do that, its easy to just swim along with the tide.  I'm not content with just labeling everyone involved terrible human beings and moving on, apparently you are.

[Lighthouse 84]

Nobody has put a timeline together of who knew what and when they knew it.  Until I see that I'm going wait before picking up my pitchfork, I have it on standby, but I'm not ready to use it yet.

As I said earlier, the grand jury testimony of McQueary is that he personally witnessed Sandusky having anal intercourse with a 10 year old.  He then told Paterno the next morning"where he reported what he had seen."  Peterno testified he told Tim Curley, the AD, "the very next day".  Approximately one and a half weeks later, McQueary told Curley and Gary Schultz, senior VP, that he witnessed what he believed to be Sandusky having anal sex with a boy in the showers.  Have you read the grand jury report?  How is that not a timeline of "who knew what and when they knew it"?

Once Paterno was told that Sandusky was in the"showers fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy", did JoePa not have the moral duty to ask Sandusky and McQueary more about it?  Do you think he actually did?  If so, he put his head in the same place yours seems to be.

[mu03eng]

As I said earlier, the grand jury testimony of McQueary is that he personally witnessed Sandusky having anal intercourse with a 10 year old.  He then told Paterno the next morning"where he reported what he had seen."  Peterno testified he told Tim Curley, the AD, "the very next day".  Approximately one and a half weeks later, McQueary told Curley and Gary Schultz, senior VP, that he witnessed what he believed to be Sandusky having anal sex with a boy in the showers.  Have you read the grand jury report?  How is that not a timeline of "who knew what and when they knew it"?

Once Paterno was told that Sandusky was in the"showers fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy", did JoePa not have the moral duty to ask Sandusky and McQueary more about it?  Do you think he actually did?  If so, he put his head in the same place yours seems to be.

Do you know he didn't?  No you don't.  You just know what is in a grand jury report that tells information related to Sandusky's awlful behavior and Curley and Schultz's culpability.  This report doesn't do anything to understand what broke down at PSU and clearly something broke down.

The funny thing is ultimately I think everyone should go from McQueary on up just like you and Navin.  Everyone of them should be gone.  However, I want to learn from this incident, people like you just want to call names and stand on your high horse.  I want to know how good people could go this far astray so it doesn't happen again, apparently you are more interested in your moral superiority and rush to judgement.  I'm done with this conversation, I've said what I had to say.  You guys enjoy kicking the carcasses. 

[MUBurrow]

Here's the part I need to reply to regarding why Paterno should be gone immediately and in my opinion is morally repugnant:

mu03eng:

I have a lot of blame to assign, from McQueary and his father, to Paterno and up to Spanier.  Should any of them done more, absolutely, but we have the benefit of the complete picture now.  Again it is not an excuse for not doing more, but I do think someone has to make the following point:  If someone came to you and said I thought I saw something your brother or father or mother etc was doing, would you believe it? would you go to the cops?  Obviously this all depends on what you are told.

You also asked that after Paterno found some of this out

He reported the incident to the administration and the campus police, is he suppose to launch his own independent investigation?

Given those two quotes together - yes he was. As a human being, if I were to find out one of my family members were accused of this, I couldn't live with myself if I didn't find out enough to know one way or the other if it was true. Would I go to the cops or try to find things out myself? I guess I can't answer that. I can say that I would be totally consumed with finding out whether or not this was true, and wash what I felt was the blood on my hands for what I had already been told. I need no more facts to determine that Paterno felt that despite what he had been told, he felt he had no blood on his hands, and did not feel compelled to do more. That is not good enough for me. unnatural carnal knowledge him.

[Spotcheck Billy]

What did they really know took place at that time?  Grand Jury reports are sealed until complete and released(or so I understand) so they hadn't seen it until we all did.  Isn't it possible they had no inkling the depth of the depravity?  I find it much more likely that they were wildly naive about what was going on than that they were essentially as evil as Sandusky himself.  I ask you, what in the universities history or that of the key players would indicate them capable of that level of insanity?

A lot of people did wrong but it is entirely too easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater

Since JoePa was interviewed (as others also were) by the grand jury he was well aware of the investigation long beforethe release of the GJ summary this weekend yet Sandusky was still allowed access to their facilities. Why still allow a former employee access? Just because he was given emeritus status?

[Lighthouse 84]

Or we could go your route, call names,

people like you just want to call names and stand on your high horse.  

Where did I call anyone names?  You asked for a timeline.  I gave you a timeline.  Not my timeline, the grand jury's, made from testimony of those who knew what they knew and when they knew it.  Should McQueary have done more? I don't know how anyone can say he shouldn't have gone into the shower to a) get the kid away from Sandusky and b) kick the sh!t out of Sandusky.  Should Paterno have done more?  Who can argue that Joe Paterno isn't Penn State.  As a human being who is the program known as Penn State Football, did he not have a responsibility to the 10 year old?  To his assistant coaches?  His players?  The rest of the administration?  To do the right thing and make sure Sandusky never stepped foot on the campus again and that the incident (s) be fully investigated?

I don't think that's standing on my high horse mu03.  Nor do I think it's a rush to judgment.  But to not act immediately does more harm to Penn State than keeping the status quo when those at the University know what's going on.

[mu03eng]

Here's the part I need to reply to regarding why Paterno should be gone immediately and in my opinion is morally repugnant:

mu03eng:
You also asked that after Paterno found some of this out
Given those two quotes together - yes he was. As a human being, if I were to find out one of my family members were accused of this, I couldn't live with myself if I didn't find out enough to know one way or the other if it was true. Would I go to the cops or try to find things out myself? I guess I can't answer that. I can say that I would be totally consumed with finding out whether or not this was true, and wash what I felt was the blood on my hands for what I had already been told. I need no more facts to determine that Paterno felt that despite what he had been told, he felt he had no blood on his hands, and did not feel compelled to do more. That is not good enough for me. frack him.

I guess I can't help myself

Burrow, I think you and I are on the same page.  It may not come across because I have a tendency to play devil's advocate with everything, but I do think he had a moral duty to do more.  What I haven't seen yet is, did he try and do more.  Did he talk to Sandusky.  Did he talk to police.  I haven't seen anyone investigate that and I haven't heard from Joe himself.  I suspect he couldn't believe it and didn't do as much as he could and for that, should it prove true, he should be gone.  But I'm not willing to accept suspicions and assumptions.

And ultimately, the whole system broke down, but everyone is so damn hell bent to nail Paterno we are losing focus on the bigger picture

[NavinRJohnson]

Everyone of them should be gone.  However, I want to learn from this incident, people like you just want to call names and stand on your high horse.  I want to know how good people could go this far astray so it doesn't happen again, apparently you are more interested in your moral superiority and rush to judgement. 

That doesn't make any sense. What exactly does one have to do with the other? You're the one who is using hyperbole like shotgun blast to the head, kicking carcasses, moral superiority, etc. I simply believe that there is no way on God's green earth that Joe Paterno should be coaching that game Saturday, nor should the President serve another day as the head of PSU or the BCS, if for no other reason than out of respect for the victims, as well as the rest of the PSU community who had absolutely nothing to do with this. How does that prevent us from learning anything from this?

[MUBurrow]

Burrow, I think you and I are on the same page.  It may not come across because I have a tendency to play devil's advocate with everything, but I do think he had a moral duty to do more.  What I haven't seen yet is, did he try and do more.  Did he talk to Sandusky.  Did he talk to police.  I haven't seen anyone investigate that and I haven't heard from Joe himself.

I'll definitely agree with you that I want to hear from Paterno himself, and want him to take questions. Its too bad the presser yesterday was cancelled, and by the time we hear from Paterno the result will likely be some worthless amalgamation of what Penn St powers want him to say, what he wants to say, and what really happened.

[GGGG]

I want to know how good people could go this far astray so it doesn't happen again

Oh I can pretty much guaranty you how this happened.  Penn State looks like it is clearly an inbred organization, run more like a family than a business.  Sandusky was the "uncle with the drinking problem" that no one wanted to talk about or confront - just as long as we all smile for the family photo in front of the Christmas tree.

No one had the guts to say "Hey, this guy was caught anal raping a 10 year old.  Not only should we kick him off campus, but we should call the police.  Yeah, I know this will be embarrassing to us - one of our own family is a monster - but this is the *right* thing to do."  This is the same type of leadership problem the Catholic Church had too BTW.

[Lighthouse 84]

everyone is so damn hell bent to nail Paterno we are losing focus on the bigger picture

The bigger picture is that kids were molested.  At least one was anally raped.  THAT'S the bigger picture.  Those who knew have to be gone and gone now.  To think otherwise is to be as ignorant as the students on Paterno's lawn who think the bigger picture means Penn State needs to beat Nebraska on Saturday.

[Aughnanure]

Oh I can pretty much guaranty you how this happened.  Penn State looks like it is clearly an inbred organization, run more like a family than a business.  Sandusky was the "uncle with the drinking problem" that no one wanted to talk about or confront - just as long as we all smile for the family photo in front of the Christmas tree.

No one had the guts to say "Hey, this guy was caught anal raping a 10 year old.  Not only should we kick him off campus, but we should call the police.  Yeah, I know this will be embarrassing to us - one of our own family is a monster - but this is the *right* thing to do."  This is the same type of leadership problem the Catholic Church had too BTW.

I think college sports has this problem in general as well (not molesting children, rather protecting the program first and foremost). Scandal after scandal shows that the big time college sports athletics first reaction is protection, rather than doing what needs to be done. The Kansas ticket scandal, OSU, and even Marquette are all examples of this. When your athlete gets in trouble, your first reaction is not to call the police and report an incident, but instead to call your lawyer to make sure this doesn't affect next week's big game.

[ATWizJr]

The bigger picture is that kids were molested.  At least one was anally raped.  THAT'S the bigger picture.  Those who knew have to be gone and gone now.  To think otherwise is to be as ignorant as the students on Paterno's lawn who think the bigger picture means Penn State needs to beat Nebraska on Saturday.

and the rapist has finally been arrested and Paterno reported what he knew (we think) to the guy in admin who runs the campus police.  What is the PSU procedure?  Is it not to report the incident to your supervisor?

[NavinRJohnson]

Just heard this, and I think Jay Bilas sums up my opinion pretty nicely. This is not complicated...

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7211213

The comment that really sums up and demonstrates exactly how PSU turned a blind eye to all of this is exactly what they were saying when they instructed him not to bring any boys on campus anymore...Just don't do it here. Spot on.

[Lighthouse 84]

and the rapist has finally been arrested and Paterno reported what he knew (we think) to the guy in admin who runs the campus police.  What is the PSU procedure?  Is it not to report the incident to your supervisor?

yes. He reported it to his supervisor and that's PSU protocol. Does that mean he shouldn't have done more?  Especially if (and he is, let's not sugarcoat it) he's THE top dog at the University?  Go ahead and argue he did all he had to do as a teacher, parent, grandparent and coach.  Go ahead.

[mu03eng]

Oh I can pretty much guaranty you how this happened.  Penn State looks like it is clearly an inbred organization, run more like a family than a business.  Sandusky was the "uncle with the drinking problem" that no one wanted to talk about or confront - just as long as we all smile for the family photo in front of the Christmas tree.

No one had the guts to say "Hey, this guy was caught anal raping a 10 year old.  Not only should we kick him off campus, but we should call the police.  Yeah, I know this will be embarrassing to us - one of our own family is a monster - but this is the *right* thing to do."  This is the same type of leadership problem the Catholic Church had too BTW.

Here is where I have trouble wrapping my head around.....What McQueary saw was so clearly wrong and should obviously have been reported to anyone who would listen.  However at least six intelligent and previously upstanding individuals at best took the route of plausible deniability and worst facilitated a child rapist.  To me it seems so obvious that something should have been done long before and then on top of to still allow him around the program as recently as a week ago knowing full well about the grand jury....what the hell? 

It just boggles my mind that the plot that is unfolding could actually happen, there is just no way you could logically take any of the actions that everyone seems to think happened in this case.  That is why I go back to who knew what and when, I need the smoking gun to prove to myself beyond a reasonable doubt that people had this information and didn't act.

[ATWizJr]

yes. He reported it to his supervisor and that's PSU protocol. Does that mean he shouldn't have done more?  Especially if (and he is, let's not sugarcoat it) he's THE top dog at the University?  Go ahead and argue he did all he had to do as a teacher, parent, grandparent and coach.  Go ahead.

Who can you name that has ever done everything he had to do as a teacher, parent, grandparent and coach?  He's human, like everyone else and he reported the incident, as relayed to him, to the guy who ran the campus police.  Did he make a citizen's arrest?  No.  Should he have done more?  Wasn't what happened next up to      the administration?

[tower912]

By this logic, Buzz should have been fired for not going to the police when last year's events unfolded at MU.   You can't have it both ways.    Horrifying events happened.   JoePa received second hand information that he took to his superior.    Superiors apparently talked to the person who came to Joe.    An internal investigation took place (sound familiar?)    PSU handled everything from there on out wrong.  Without a doubt.    If these allegations are found through due process to be true, I hope there is a special place in hell reserved for him.    You can argue that JoePa should have gone to the police himself.   You can argue that Buzz should have gone to the police himself.    The only difference is scope and details.    IMO, we have short memories here.    Let the process happen.    Let the whole story come out.   

[Lighthouse 84]

By this logic, Buzz should have been fired for not going to the police when last year's events unfolded at MU.   You can't have it both ways.    Horrifying events happened.   JoePa received second hand information that he took to his superior.    Superiors apparently talked to the person who came to Joe.    An internal investigation took place (sound familiar?)    PSU handled everything from there on out wrong.  Without a doubt.    If these allegations are found through due process to be true, I hope there is a special place in hell reserved for him.    You can argue that JoePa should have gone to the police himself.   You can argue that Buzz should have gone to the police himself.    The only difference is scope and details.    IMO, we have short memories here.    Let the process happen.    Let the whole story come out.   

2 differences. One, Buzz isn't the equivalent of Joe Paterno. If it was Al, maybe but Buzz isn't Al or JoePa. Second, MU's issue wasn't 10 year olds getting anally raped. Was what happened at MU enough to go to the police?  Maybe so. I didn't see a grand jury report.

[tower912]

"The only difference is scope and details".    Let the due process play out.    And considering the glass house MU has found itself for the last 7 months, perhaps the stone casting should be more carefully considered.

[Aughnanure]

"The only difference is scope and details".    Let the due process play out.    And considering the glass house MU has found itself for the last 7 months, perhaps the stone casting should be more carefully considered.

This.

[nyg]

The Board of Trustees just fired Paterno and the President.

The pre-emptive strike by Paterno announcing his retirement earlier in the day backfired.

House cleaning completed?  Who knows. 

The Department of Education will now send in their Inspector General agents for federal violations in non-reporting of criminal acts.

What a mess........

Next will be recruits bailing out.

[Jay Bee]

Is Paterno taking the rear exit?

[MUBurrow]

Either:
A) Board just wants to completely clean house as quickly as possible and stop having the Nittany Lion on ESPN behind everyone implicated, or
B) Board knows what JoePa has to say in that press conference that never happened and it isn't good/different than many of the conclusions out there right now

Or both.