Joe Paterno Exit

[NavinRJohnson]

Unless there is a morals clause with the NCAA, what can they do?  This is better left up to the University, community and league, IMHO.

The story gets more sickening with each follow up.

There are ethics guidelines within the NCAA constitution and by-laws, so... I'm just saying that if PSU doesn't handle it by getting rid of everyone from the grad assistant up to the President, the NCAA might have to.

[Boone]

Given that the ex-coach (I can't even type his name) wasn't even a Penn St. employee in '02, why even go to the AD with this info? Of course the AD should be informed, but given that the AD wasn't his boss anymore, why not leapfrog him and go directly to the proper authorities?

[ATWizJr]

Given that the ex-coach (I can't even type his name) wasn't even a Penn St. employee in '02, why even go to the AD with this info? Of course the AD should be informed, but given that the AD wasn't his boss anymore, why not leapfrog him and go directly to the proper authorities?

  Didn't Paterno go to the AD  AND the guy who is in charge of the campus police?

[Aughnanure]

I think you're missing my point...It is crystal clear to me that Paterno (and probably plenty of others) had complete knowledge of Sandusky's problem well before that shower incident even took place, and they let it go on. Just as he let it go on after.

For the record, he reported that incident to the AD. That's it.

That is a reach. "Complete knowledge"? I highly doubt anyone was fully aware of how bad it was, and your implication that everyone just knew an assistant coach was raping young boys but decided to do nothing (for no identifiable reason, he wasn't a player they were protecting or even still a coach) is flawed. You are insinuating that they all were "okay" and even encouraged this behavior somehow.

What about The Second Mile organization that was aware he was being investigated (in two separate instances), but still allowed him access to boys for another 10 years? Is everyone pure evil to you? I guess it makes it easier to comprehend how something like this can occur.

No, the most likely scenario is that whatever information or allegations they received, from McQueery and others, was that there was "sexual misconduct","fondling" or any other semi-ambiguous descriptions. In that case, when you've known someone for 30+ years, you tend to to doubt and block out the reality of the situation.

Did they do enough? Of course not, but what you are accusing them of is being fully knowledgeable of what was happening and accessories to a crime.

[mu03eng]

I think you're missing my point...It is crystal clear to me that Paterno (and probably plenty of others) had complete knowledge of Sandusky's problem well before that shower incident even took place, and they let it go on. Just as he let it go on after.

For the record, he reported that incident to the AD. That's it.

I have avoid commenting on this story because as a life long Penn State fan, I felt no good could of the discussion and at no point could anything approaching a rational discussion take place.  However Navin you have forced me to comment

First what Sandusky did is beyond reprehensible and he fully deserves the special place in hell he's going to.  Any statements I make after this should in no way be viewed as excusing Sandusky.

However, for you to accuse the program, all of the coaches and players over 30 years, of knowing about Sandusky's problem is disgusting.  People like Lavar Arrington and Matt Millen to name a few have known and worked with Sandusky for years and knew nothing.  You would have us believe that they knew this was going on and looked the other way?  Millen sits on the board of Second Mile, he had to know according to you.  To make this conclusion is irresponsible and quite frankly is a symptom of exactly why I think the media coverage is so flawed.  No one is reporting facts and determining exactly who knew what and when.  Its all a rush to be more indignant then the next talking head.  I believe a lot of wrong has gone on but no one is looking at it objectively.  Personally I think your stance is intellectually lazy because you can simply say everyone is the devil and move on.  Its easy to paint with a wide brush, its much harder to actually understand what happened.

I have a lot of blame to assign, from McQueary and his father, to Paterno and up to Spanier.  Should any of them done more, absolutely, but we have the benefit of the complete picture now.  Again it is not an excuse for not doing more, but I do think someone has to make the following point:  If someone came to you and said I thought I saw something your brother or father or mother etc was doing, would you believe it? would you go to the cops?  Obviously this all depends on what you are told.  Sandusky was part of the Penn State family, and it really is that there.  If faced with one report(which we don't know exactly what everyone was told) about a family member would you report it?  I'd like to think I would but I'm not ready to indict a man who for 46 years has shown nothing but a strong moral compass as some sort of facilitator for unspeakable crimes without more information.

The whole thing is terrible and I hate that it happened, but I just don't want to take the easy road and spew hatred at everyone and walk away.

[NavinRJohnson]

Did they do enough? Of course not, but what you are accusing them of is being fully knowledgeable of what was happening and accessories to a crime.

Yep. You're damn right I am. The jackass admitted to showering with boys in 1998. The "reported" shower incident took place in 2002. To suggest that they didn't know this was going on within the confines of the athletic facilities over a period of three-four years simply doesn't pass the smell test. For God's sake, incidents involving 6 of the 8 identified victims identified in the Grand Jury report took place before 2000. You really believe people around that place didn't know it was going on. Come on. I would suggest you may be the one who is looking for a way to make this easier to comprehend.

So they thought maybe it was just "sexual misconduct","fondling" or any other semi-ambiguous descriptions, but didn't rise to the level of anal rape, and therefore what, its ok? Just Jerry being Jerry?  There's a reason Paterno didn't really do anything about the 2002 incident. He wasn't surprised by it, and clearly he also wasn't upset by it.

[MUMac]

There are ethics guidelines within the NCAA constitution and by-laws, so... I'm just saying that if PSU doesn't handle it by getting rid of everyone from the grad assistant up to the President, the NCAA might have to.

Actually, that comment is not what you were saying in your post that I quoted.  There was no "if PSU doesn't handle ..."  Your initial comment, that I commented upon, was an absolute.  Stating the NCAA needs to get involved and punish the program.  You cited other programs and how the NCAA punished them as examples.

As I stated, this is best left to the university, community and Big10, not the NCAA.  It appears as though PSU is taking serious action. 

I do wonder, though, how PSU would have handled Paterno if he was 54, not 84 ...

[NavinRJohnson]

However, for you to accuse the program, all of the coaches and players over 30 years, of knowing about Sandusky's problem is disgusting.

First of all, you're going to have to show me where I made that accusation. I accused Paterno and likely a few others of knowing that the guy had a problem with boys. For you to claim that is implausible is to choose to ignore reality. Catholic Church ring any bells? How long was that garbage ignored and swept under the rug, while predators were allowed to assault more victims? Why should this be any different? Again, 3/4 of the victims in the report (have you read it) took place before the 2002 shower incident. The number of victims has reportedly already doubled.

If someone came to you and said I thought I saw something your brother or father or mother etc was doing, would you believe it? would you go to the cops?  Obviously this all depends on what you are told.  

Maybe not, but would I contact that close friend or family member to see what happened? Yep, I sure would. You are going to have show me in the report where Paterno testified to having that discussion. Again, to suggest that after several years of this going on within the confines of the PSU facilities, displays a shocking level of willful naivety...and that is just from the 8 victims we know of.

Even if you want to assume all of that is wrong,  Jerry Sandusky was in the PSU facilities LAST WEEK! Clearly Paterno and the PSU brass were not bothered by what they knew at that time had taken place.

[NavinRJohnson]

It appears as though PSU is taking serious action. 

Let's hope so. If he coaches on Saturday, they most certainly are not. If that President has a job on Saturday, they aren't.

[Aughnanure]

Yep. You're damn right I am. The jackass admitted to showering with boys in 1998. The "reported" shower incident took place in 2002. To suggest that they didn't know this was going on within the confines of the athletic facilities over a period of three-four years simply doesn't pass the smell test. For God's sake, incidents involving 6 of the 8 identified victims identified in the Grand Jury report took place before 2000. You really believe people around that place didn't know it was going on. Come on. I would suggest you may be the one who is looking for a way to make this easier to comprehend.

So they thought maybe it was just "sexual misconduct","fondling" or any other semi-ambiguous descriptions, but didn't rise to the level of anal rape, and therefore what, its ok? Just Jerry being Jerry?  There's a reason Paterno didn't really do anything about the 2002 incident. He wasn't surprised by it, and clearly he also wasn't upset by it.

Cute response, but in no part of of it did you actually show that these people knew the full extent of what was going on. I don't know if you're aware, but investigations are different than full-on complicit knowledge. You suggestion that everyone n the football program knew that Jerry anal rapes little boys, but was totally okay with it is ridiculous. No way does that information last 3 years, much less 3 days, if the "crystal clear" knowledge is as widespread as you contend.

But sure, keep it simple for you over reactionary mind - evil JoePa and Penn St are totally okay with anal raping young boys. Yep, that clears it up.

[Aughnanure]

Maybe not, but would I contact that close friend or family member to see what happened? Yep, I sure would. You are going to have show me in the report where Paterno testified to having that discussion. Again, to suggest that after several years of this going on within the confines of the PSU facilities, displays a shocking level of willful naivety...and that is just from the 8 victims we know of.

Yep, and I bet Jerry just totally admitted to having regular anal intercourse with prepubescent boys in the football showers.

Even if you want to assume all of that is wrong,  Jerry Sandusky was in the PSU facilities LAST WEEK! Clearly Paterno and the PSU brass were not bothered by what they knew at that time had taken place.

If anything, that clearly shows you how ignorant they were of his actions, as well as what the investigations had uncovered.

[Pakuni]

First of all, you're going to have to show me where I made that accusation. I accused Paterno and likely a few others of knowing that the guy had a problem with boys. For you to claim that is implausible is to choose to ignore reality. Catholic Church ring any bells? How long was that garbage ignored and swept under the rug, while predators were allowed to assault more victims? Why should this be any different? Again, 3/4 of the victims in the report (have you read it) took place before the 2002 shower incident. The number of victims has reportedly already doubled.

With all due respect, you have absolutely no clue what Paterno did or did not know. Nobody, far as I can tell, is suggesting that what you believe is implausible. Fact is, you're the only one who's speaking in absolutes here. And I'm not sure how anyone can speak in absolutes about what someone else "knew" unless a) that person says he/she knew or b) you have amazing mind-reading capabilities.
Barring that, you're merely speculating. Your speculation could turn out to be spot on. But right now, it's still just supposition.

The Catholic Church rings lots of bells. Every hour, in some places. But I don't see what that has to do with this.

[NavinRJohnson]

Cute response, but in no part of of it did you actually show that these people knew the full extent of what was going on.

Nope, and at no point did I suggest they knew the full extent of what was going on. What I am suggesting...actually stating as fact, is that Paterno, and likely some others knew something was going on, and chose not to deal with it.

What exactly are you suggesting? If they thought he was just "horsing around" with 10 year old boys in the shower, that's not a big deal? They should only have done anything if they knew just how bad it was? Or are you suggesting that they literally knew nothing, even though it went on for several years, seemingly with double digit victims, and the police were involved in 1998? Really? You think nobody around that place knew anything?

[mu03eng]

First of all, you're going to have to show me where I made that accusation. I accused Paterno and likely a few others of knowing that the guy had a problem with boys. For you to claim that is implausible is to choose to ignore reality. Catholic Church ring any bells? How long was that garbage ignored and swept under the rug, while predators were allowed to assault more victims? Why should this be any different? Again, 3/4 of the victims in the report (have you read it) took place before the 2002 shower incident. The number of victims has reportedly already doubled.

Apples and oranges.  The catholic church scandal was scattered across the country and did not take place in a single confined location where everyone knew everyone.  I think it is implausible that, if it is as obvious as you make it sound for Paterno to know, that other people wouldn't know.  That staff has been together for years you don't think everyone would know if Joe knew?  You don't think if it was so obvious that all the players that played for Sandusky would know?  This behavior went on for something like 20 years, at least.  If it was that obvious, you are telling me that only a handful would know and willfully cover it up?  What in the 46 years of Paterno's very public record tells you he would engage in a cover up for something as heinous as that????

Maybe not, but would I contact that close friend or family member to see what happened? Yep, I sure would. You are going to have show me in the report where Paterno testified to having that discussion. Again, to suggest that after several years of this going on within the confines of the PSU facilities, displays a shocking level of willful naivety...and that is just from the 8 victims we know of.

Show me in the report where he testified he didn't talk to Sandusky about it.  

We have seen this a million times, unfortunately these types of monsters are very good at keeping the lives separate, people are fooled all of the time.  Not saying that excuses not doing more, but to make it so cut and dry minimizes the truly difficult nature of recognizing something so despicable in someone who you are so close to.

Even if you want to assume all of that is wrong,  Jerry Sandusky was in the PSU facilities LAST WEEK! Clearly Paterno and the PSU brass were not bothered by what they knew at that time had taken place.

What did they really know took place at that time?  Grand Jury reports are sealed until complete and released(or so I understand) so they hadn't seen it until we all did.  Isn't it possible they had no inkling the depth of the depravity?  I find it much more likely that they were wildly naive about what was going on than that they were essentially as evil as Sandusky himself.  I ask you, what in the universities history or that of the key players would indicate them capable of that level of insanity?

A lot of people did wrong but it is entirely too easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater

[mu03eng]

Nope, and at no point did I suggest they knew the full extent of what was going on. What I am suggesting...actually stating as fact, is that Paterno, and likely some others knew something was going on, and chose not to deal with it.

What exactly are you suggesting? If they thought he was just "horsing around" with 10 year old boys in the shower, that's not a big deal? They should only have done anything if they knew just how bad it was? Or are you suggesting that they literally knew nothing, even though it went on for several years, seemingly with double digit victims, and the police were involved in 1998? Really? You think nobody around that place knew anything?

Its amazingly easy to connect all the dots when they are laid out before you.  Show me in all of these incidents and reports you have access to who knew what and when.  Actually prove to me with FACTS that Paterno or Bradley or McQueary or Spainer or anyone else knew everything and was actually in a position to put it together.  It ain't popular right now, but lets actually have a case let alone guilt establish before we go chopping off heads.

[NavinRJohnson]

With all due respect, you have absolutely no clue what Paterno did or did not know. Nobody, far as I can tell, is suggesting that what you believe is implausible. Fact is, you're the only one who's speaking in absolutes here. And I'm not sure how anyone can speak in absolutes about what someone else "knew" unless a) that person says he/she knew or b) you have amazing mind-reading capabilities.

Here's what I know. I know OJ Simpson killed two people. I know the parents are somehow responsible for Baby Lisa's disappearance in Missouri. I haven't talked to anyone involved, nor do I read minds. I do however have a mind, the powers of deduction, and the ability to draw a conclusion. Why do you care? If I'm speculating, and I'm wrong, that's on me. However, I have no problem coming to the conclusion that Paterno knew that Sandusky was doing something with boys on the PSU campus.

The Catholic Church rings lots of bells. Every hour, in some places. But I don't see what that has to do with this.

That's a good one. What does it have to do with this? I am being told that, "You suggestion that everyone n the football program knew that Jerry anal rapes little boys, but was totally okay with it is ridiculous. No way does that information last 3 years, much less 3 days, if the "crystal clear" knowledge is as widespread as you contend."

How long did that information last in the Catholic Church? A heck of a lot longer that 3 years, let alone 3 days. That is a clear suggestion that my conclusion that Paterno knew something was going on, and allowed it to go on is implausible, when clearly it is not. It happened on a much larger scale and many people worked very hard to cover it up while the victim count grew exponentially.

[MerrittsMustache]

JoePa retiring at season's end. It will be interesting to see if he lasts that long. IMO, he shouldn't.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7211281/penn-state-nittany-lions-joe-paterno-retire-end-season

[NavinRJohnson]

Yep, and I bet Jerry just totally admitted to having regular anal intercourse with prepubescent boys in the football showers.

If anything, that clearly shows you how ignorant they were of his actions, as well as what the investigations had uncovered.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[DegenerateDish]

This whole thing is just beyond maddening, my disgust level grows every hour, and I can only imagine when this thing goes to trial, it might (horribly) be ten times worse than where we are at now. I'm guessing when reports come out about the foundation Sandusky was running, will only lead to more horrible things being brought to light.

I still can not fathom how Paterno can coach one more day. He's supposed to be a leader and set an example for the young men he is coaching, both on and off the field. Retiring at the end of the season...who cares. For his own sake, the sake of PSU, and god help the victims, retire now so the healing process and fixing this so it NEVER happens again should start NOW, not having to wait for 3 more games, and then a month long wait for a bowl game. Every day he shows up to coach is just a reminder of this beyond words awful case.

[NavinRJohnson]

  It ain't popular right now, but lets actually have a case let alone guilt establish before we go chopping off heads.

You are free to do that, and from a legal standpoint, absolutely. I don't need to do that. I have seen and heard enough to know that Paterno, Curly, Spanier, and McQuerry's hands are plenty dirty to conclude that they need to be done today...If it were my call of course, but I am just a dumbass with no say in the matter.

[NavinRJohnson]

Retiring at the end of the season...who cares. For his own sake, the sake of PSU, and god help the victims, retire now so the healing process and fixing this so it NEVER happens again should start NOW, not having to wait for 3 more games, and then a month long wait for a bowl game. Every day he shows up to coach is just a reminder of this beyond words awful case.

I think it also speaks volumes about whom and what exactly he is concerned...himself, his 400 wins, his 46 years. Obviously he wants to go out on his terms, but, I'm sorry, he has forfeited that right. It isn't about him anymore. We can argue round or flat about what he knew when, but I hope all would agree he knew something, sometime and could not have handled it worse, and he bears responsibility for a number of those victims. The AD and President are in that boat with him.

[DegenerateDish]

I think it also speaks volumes about whom and what exactly he is concerned...himself, his 400 wins, his 46 years. Obviously he wants to go out on his terms, but, I'm sorry, he has forfeited that right. It isn't about him anymore. We can argue round or flat about what he knew when, but I hope all would agree he knew something, sometime and could not have handled it worse, and he bears responsibility for a number of those victims. The AD and President are in that boat with him.

I agree with all that, you're absolutely right. That's what part of so maddening to me...he's been there 46 years, has 400 wins...we all agree he can coach football, and his football coaching ability won't be challenged. But my god, it's 3 f'n games and a bowl game left, he has zero to prove (on the field), for the sake of himself, the university, the victims...step down. Coaching the rest of the season does nothing other than continue to tarnish his legacy.

I myself am overly stubborn to a degree, but this is absurd how defiant and stubborn Paterno is. For all the wrong things that have been done, by so many people, on so many levels, the one right thing that is obvious (to me anyway) is for him to step down now, and it won't be done. It's a disgrace to me.

[Boone]

I believe Paterno only reported the incident to Curley, the AD, and not to Schultz, who oversaw the campus police.

[Lighthouse 84]

Its amazingly easy to connect all the dots when they are laid out before you.  Show me in all of these incidents and reports you have access to who knew what and when.  Actually prove to me with FACTS that Paterno or Bradley or McQueary or Spainer or anyone else knew everything and was actually in a position to put it together.  It ain't popular right now, but lets actually have a case let alone guilt establish before we go chopping off heads.

Read the Grand Jury Report if you want FACTS.  In particular, read about Victim 2.  Here's an excerpt:

"As the graduate assistant put the sneakers in his locker, he looked into the shower.  he saw a naked boy, Victim 2,. whose age he estimated to be ten years old,with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky."

You might want to get your head out of the sand or your arse, wherever it may be, and look at the findings of FACT.  We know the graduate assistant to be McQueary and we know he reported the fact that Sandusky was naked with the naked 10 year old to Paterno.  We also know Paterno reported it to his superiors.

[Pakuni]

Read the Grand Jury Report if you want FACTS.  In particular, read about Victim 2.  Here's an excerpt:

"As the graduate assistant put the sneakers in his locker, he looked into the shower.  he saw a naked boy, Victim 2,. whose age he estimated to be ten years old,with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky."

You might want to get your head out of the sand or your arse, wherever it may be, and look at the findings of FACT.  We know the graduate assistant to be McQueary and we know he reported the fact that Sandusky was naked with the naked 10 year old to Paterno.  We also know Paterno reported it to his superiors.

I won't pretend to know what happened, but what's been reported is pretty damning.

That said, a grand jury report is a long, long way from FACT. A grand jury report is exclusively what the authorities want you to know about a set of allegations, and nothing more.
If a grand jury report were FACT, there would be no such thing as (or need for ) a trial. Everyone would be guilty. Because the grand jury report says so.