An open invite for PuertoRicanNightmare (this is not an attack)

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Listen, we've all gone around and around debating everything MU related...
 
You have been blasted by a lot of people on this board because they feel that you are critical of Crean whenever/wherever possible simply because you don't like him.

Can you provide everybody some rationale on why you don't like him? I think that might help people understand your position.

As it stands now, you just appear bitter about something, and you appear to try to discredit Crean whenever possible.

I don't think Crean is God, and I'm open to all points of view (even critical ones)... but I (and others) are having a tough time understanding where you are coming from.

I don't want this to sound like an attack... I'm honestly just asking the question because I'm tired of everybody using inuendos or "beating around the bush".

If you dislike him so much, please tell us why...

[Djgoldnboy]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

The real questions are why bother and who cares?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

The real questions are why bother and who cares?

I know what you mean, I guess I'm really trying to give him a fair chance to tell everybody what his deal is.

Disliking Crean is not a crime... there are a lot of people in the world I don't like... its just that I have a reason.

Why does he dislike Crean?

I didn't like Mike Deane as a coach, but it doesn't make me a bad person.

Here are my reasons:

- he was a good x and o's guy, but played an "ugly" style that I didn't think would be effective at a high level
- He was kinda cool because he would drink with students and alumni occasionally, but on the whole he didn't seem to care too much about either the students or the alumni
- He couldn't/didn't recruit elite talent
- He didn't represent MU in the best ways possible... I mean he did OK, but he definitely wasn't charismatic enough to lift MU to another level. I know that is not neccisarily a coach's job, but MU needed/needs a coach that can help market the U because there is no football.

See how easy that was???

[Murffieus]

There are two Tom Creans---one the man---the other the coach-----one can  be critical of the coach and still like the man!

[ChicosBailBonds]

There are two Tom Creans---one the man---the other the coach-----one can  be critical of the coach and still like the man!

Or vice versa

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

There are a series of things that have bothered me about him over the year, many of which I have discussed on these boards. I won't go into them.

Suffice it to say I think he's done a very nice job with MU. I just don't think he's as wonderful as some -- here and in the media -- like to believe. I just wouldn't be sorry to see him go.

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

There are a series of things that have bothered me about him over the year, many of which I have discussed on these boards. I won't go into them.

Suffice it to say I think he's done a very nice job with MU. I just don't think he's as wonderful as some -- here and in the media -- like to believe. I just wouldn't be sorry to see him go.

For those who haven't been here long why can't you just gloss over your grievances?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

There are two Tom Creans---one the man---the other the coach-----one can  be critical of the coach and still like the man!

I agree with you... and I think that's the issue we are having.

I don't always agree with Crean's coaching, and I have no problem with people voicing their opinion about coaching OR him personally... I just think rationale is needed... otherwise it just comes off as an attack and/or bitterness rather that discussion or valid criticism.

Whether PRN likes it or not, without providing some rational behind his dislike, he just comes off as a "jealous ex-girlfriend/boyfirend". It doesn't matter what anybody says, he's just always going to hate Crean.

Tom Crean could win the national title 10 years in a row, and PRN would still take shots at him because he never really wants people to like Tom Crean, because he doesn't like Tom Crean. 

PRN, if you don't like him, just tell us why... and don't be vague... just tell us in a few bullet points. What about him personally do you find so offensive?

I'm giving you every opportunity to tell everybody why we shouldn't like him... just put it in black and white.

I'll even start:

Here are some things I don't like about his coaching:
- I don't like that the entire offense is based off the dribble. I prefer offenses with more off of the ball movement. I think that is why it becomes hard for MU to score, because they always have to start with some sort of drive rather than just good off ball screens and movement trying to create an advantage or an easy shot.

- I like the physical defense, but I wish they would press more and sub guys in more frequently. I think MU's guards would be more effective if they could essentially wear down the other team's back court

See how easy it is?

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Here are a few reasons:

• He's an insufferable name-dropper and is clearly impressed with celebrity. Tony LaRussa, Ben Sheets, Bill Russell? Who cares?
• I don't like that his assistant coaches flee every year like the bird flu is running through the AL. He cites it as a sign of a healthy program, yet he stayed at MSU for at least 4 years. Was that program unhealthy? How long was Izzo an assistant to Jud Heathcoate? Bruce Weber with Gene Keady? Billy Donovan with Rick Pinito? Unhealthy? If co-workers are beating the door to get out, there is something wrong
• I don't like the number of transfers, regardless of the reason these guys left. Crean brought them in, but they always seem to be damaged goods when they leave.
• I don't like that he hung Joe Chapman out to dry in the media before his senior year and then, after 4 years of hard work, made him ride the pine until Matthews got hurt. Any reason Matthews couldn't have come off the bench for the 25 minutes a game he was getting? No...unless he was promised a starting job in the recruiting process. That's fine, too, but don't rip the senior in the media! Is Wes a better player in the long run? Absolutely, but after his injury it was clear who was the more valuable player. Joe deserved MUCH better.
• Despite his lofty salary, he had the audacity to take advantage of naive students seeking his autograph by actually sitting in the MU Spirit Shop in an effort to sell books!!

I could go on, but the truth is, I don't know Tom Crean from Adam's Off Ox. I read these things and it forms an impression.

Some of you guys think he walks on water. I happen to think it's a classic case of the emperor having no clothes on.

[mu_hilltopper]

• Despite his lofty salary, he had the audacity to take advantage of naive students seeking his autograph by actually sitting in the MU Spirit Shop in an effort to sell books!!

THAT BASTARD!  I HAVE A LITTLE VOMIT IN MY MOUTH RIGHT NOW!  THE NERVE!

[maxpower773]

Are those your only reasons? I understand the middle 2 points and partially agree with them. But your other 3 points just seem a bit childish, like you're holding a grudge against him or something. First, with your first point...if you say who cares then why does it bother you so much? And big deal, Chapman sat on the bench and came in to play when we needed. Crean saw Wesley as the best fit and thought the rotation would be best this way(yes this is just a guess, not his actual thoughts). And its funny how you say he ripped him in the media...I don't know if it was you exactly but I wouldn't doubt that you've said this on here, but I've seen plenty of times on here after games on why doesn't Crean call out his players after losses...what's the difference, Joe wasn't playing like he should have...like a senior should have at that point in the season. Now you say this is a problem, him calling out Joe in the media. And the last one I just don't get, want to explain that. Oh and one question for you and other Crean haters(not criticizers....)...Do YOU pay Crean's salary?

[4everwarriors]

Rican. The cat does make valid points. Gotta hand it to TC, he's quick with the tongue. Problem being, he just isn't believable. That may work in selling cars, but after 8 years here, you can see right through it.

[ecompt]

Look, there are times I scratch my head at the things he's doing during a game. But the guy has gone 20-12 in two seasons in one of the premier basketball conferences in the country. And his players graduate. And the program is clean.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Are those your only reasons? I understand the middle 2 points and partially agree with them. But your other 3 points just seem a bit childish, like you're holding a grudge against him or something. First, with your first point...if you say who cares then why does it bother you so much? And big deal, Chapman sat on the bench and came in to play when we needed. Crean saw Wesley as the best fit and thought the rotation would be best this way(yes this is just a guess, not his actual thoughts). And its funny how you say he ripped him in the media...I don't know if it was you exactly but I wouldn't doubt that you've said this on here, but I've seen plenty of times on here after games on why doesn't Crean call out his players after losses...what's the difference, Joe wasn't playing like he should have...like a senior should have at that point in the season. Now you say this is a problem, him calling out Joe in the media. And the last one I just don't get, want to explain that. Oh and one question for you and other Crean haters(not criticizers....)...Do YOU pay Crean's salary?

I've said dozens of times that I don't care about his salary. Good for him.

My point about the bookstore is...does he really need to get that extra $9.99 out of some sophomore or junior working in the food line at SAGA or driving a Marquette LIMO? It's tacky as hell.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Here are a few reasons:

• He's an insufferable name-dropper and is clearly impressed with celebrity. Tony LaRussa, Ben Sheets, Bill Russell? Who cares?
• I don't like that his assistant coaches flee every year like the bird flu is running through the AL. He cites it as a sign of a healthy program, yet he stayed at MSU for at least 4 years. Was that program unhealthy? How long was Izzo an assistant to Jud Heathcoate? Bruce Weber with Gene Keady? Billy Donovan with Rick Pinito? Unhealthy? If co-workers are beating the door to get out, there is something wrong
• I don't like the number of transfers, regardless of the reason these guys left. Crean brought them in, but they always seem to be damaged goods when they leave.
• I don't like that he hung Joe Chapman out to dry in the media before his senior year and then, after 4 years of hard work, made him ride the pine until Matthews got hurt. Any reason Matthews couldn't have come off the bench for the 25 minutes a game he was getting? No...unless he was promised a starting job in the recruiting process. That's fine, too, but don't rip the senior in the media! Is Wes a better player in the long run? Absolutely, but after his injury it was clear who was the more valuable player. Joe deserved MUCH better.
• Despite his lofty salary, he had the audacity to take advantage of naive students seeking his autograph by actually sitting in the MU Spirit Shop in an effort to sell books!!

I could go on, but the truth is, I don't know Tom Crean from Adam's Off Ox. I read these things and it forms an impression.

Some of you guys think he walks on water. I happen to think it's a classic case of the emperor having no clothes on.

Fair enough.

I'll be honest and tell you that I disagree with some of what you put forth, but its opinion stuff... so we can just disagree and that's fine.

I will say that like you, I don't know coach Crean (met him a couple of times, but I don't personally know him), but I give him the benefit of the doubt because he has done so many good things for MU hoops and for the MU community. (al's run, team visiting elementary schools and hospitals, hunger clean-up, former players speak highly of him, the university has made a commitment to him,  other people in the industry speak highly of him, etc.)... he's got a good track record. I was at MU for Deane and for Crean, and I can tell you that Crean breathed a lot of life into the program and campus. 

He is not without his flaws, but he is not without his positives. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on ever facet of the Crean's life... but he appears to be doing pretty well.

I just hope you don't let your personal feelings about him cloud your judgement on what he has, and still can do for this program. He has done a fantastic job at MU... and this team is still on the rise.

Oh, also, you said you have formed all of these opinons based upon things you have read, and I guess that makes sense... because I have read a lot of your posts and in my opinion you are just the type of guy who is always going to be critical of people with success because you have never had any.

It doesn't matter who the coach is, who the players are, what color everybody is wearing, or what the mascot is... you are still going to b*tch just as much. 

[maxpower773]

Are those your only reasons? I understand the middle 2 points and partially agree with them. But your other 3 points just seem a bit childish, like you're holding a grudge against him or something. First, with your first point...if you say who cares then why does it bother you so much? And big deal, Chapman sat on the bench and came in to play when we needed. Crean saw Wesley as the best fit and thought the rotation would be best this way(yes this is just a guess, not his actual thoughts). And its funny how you say he ripped him in the media...I don't know if it was you exactly but I wouldn't doubt that you've said this on here, but I've seen plenty of times on here after games on why doesn't Crean call out his players after losses...what's the difference, Joe wasn't playing like he should have...like a senior should have at that point in the season. Now you say this is a problem, him calling out Joe in the media. And the last one I just don't get, want to explain that. Oh and one question for you and other Crean haters(not criticizers....)...Do YOU pay Crean's salary?

I've said dozens of times that I don't care about his salary. Good for him.

My point about the bookstore is...does he really need to get that extra $9.99 out of some sophomore or junior working in the food line at SAGA or driving a Marquette LIMO? It's tacky as hell.

Ok, well sorry about the salary thing...I didn't know if you've said it or not....and now I know. And I never knew that about the bookstore thing....

[Sir Lawrence]

"so we can just disagree and that's fine.
........
and in my opinion you are just the type of guy who is always going to be critical of people with success because you have never had any."

 


So disagree, but how do you have any basis to say that PRN has had no success?  That's just wrong.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

so we can just disagree and that's fine.

and in my opinion you are just the type of guy who is always going to be critical of people with success because you have never had any.

 

So disagree, but how do you have any basis to say that PRN has had no success?  That's just wrong.
[/quote]

That's exactly the point. He has made up his mind about coach Crean without really knowing him... just "based upon things he has read"... so based upon what I have read... I have formed an opinion about him. It's the same thing.

[Marquette84]

My point about the bookstore is...does he really need to get that extra $9.99 out of some sophomore or junior working in the food line at SAGA or driving a Marquette LIMO? It's tacky as hell.

Yes, and damn all those Hollywood stars.  Imagine, with the money they are making actually trying to get another $9.00 for poor students when they want to see a first run movie.

And a pox on all those musicians--how dare they expect poor students to drop 42.50 on concert tickets--and then have to pay another 20 for the T-shirt.

And what a terrible terrible state of affairs that Miller, Budweiser, etc. expect that these students have to pay for their beer.  Tacky tacky tacky.

And for those unlucky enough to own cars, how dare the gas stations open up on the streets just waiting to take advantage and charge for fuel.

And boo on Starbucks.  How can they live at night charging for a cup of coffee, cappucino or espresso.

And shut down Real Chilli for their transgressions.  Imagine--they actually charge MONEY for Chili!! Truly amazing their depravity!!!

And all those hotels in Florida, Texas, Cabo, etc.  They should open their doors at spring break as a pure courtesy--not trying to grub money from students who merely want a place to sleep. 

And Abercrombie, AEO, Hollister, etc.  How DARE they SELL clothing.

Did we dis the local bars yet?  I think not.  But they are most CERTAINLY tacky as hell for not opening up the taps and letting the beer flow for free. 

[Pardner]

Did we dis the local bars yet?  I think not.  But they are most CERTAINLY tacky as hell for not opening up the taps and letting the beer flow for free. 

Yeah, what about eight RWAB's at the Lanche for $1 and 2:00AM  "dine and dash" specials at George Webb's and the Ham & Egger...oh wait...I guess I will never make it to head coach anywhere

[mviale]

PRN ~ I often agree with you and I know what you mean by your comments.  However, a Pete Carrill or even a Dick Harter type does not cut it in top 20 basketball today.  Crean has been successful and He may be the only reason that you give Marquette a thought each week.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

And what a terrible terrible state of affairs that Miller, Budweiser, etc. expect that these students have to pay for their beer.  Tacky tacky tacky.

And for those unlucky enough to own cars, how dare the gas stations open up on the streets just waiting to take advantage and charge for fuel.

And boo on Starbucks.  How can they live at night charging for a cup of coffee, cappucino or espresso.

And shut down Real Chilli for their transgressions.  Imagine--they actually charge MONEY for Chili!! Truly amazing their depravity!!!

And all those hotels in Florida, Texas, Cabo, etc.  They should open their doors at spring break as a pure courtesy--not trying to grub money from students who merely want a place to sleep. 

And Abercrombie, AEO, Hollister, etc.  How DARE they SELL clothing.

Did we dis the local bars yet?  I think not.  But they are most CERTAINLY tacky as hell for not opening up the taps and letting the beer flow for free. 

These examples that you provide are actually proving my point. Do the CEOs of Budweiser and Miller sit in their respective lunchrooms trying to sell cases of beer to their employees?   And something tells me the employees over at Real Chili are not paying to eat the Marquette Special.

[MUCam]

PRN -

You have your reasons for not liking Crean, and that is fair. When asked, you've been courageous enough to post them, knowing you'll likely catch flak. That might even be considered admirable.

My problem is this: Regardless of your reasons, you obviously dislike Crean very much. There is no doubt that that taints your objectivity when it comes to posts regarding his performance. Instead of being honest with yourself regarding this issue, it appears you espouse your positions as gospel in an attempt to push your agenda. You clearly cannot be objective, so why pawn off your "insights" as "truths?" Why not simply admit, I do not like the man and so I cannot be objective?

Or do you truly believe you are objective?

[MUEng92]

I keep telling myself that I spend too much time on this website.

A few more threads like this and I just may be cured.

It is like six year olds with advanced vocabularies.

[MUCam]

If there is a reason to stay on this website, it is for lines like this:

"It is like six year olds with advanced vocabularies."

Classic, even if it is intended to include my previous comments. Too funny. Too true.