Futbol Talk

[brewcity77]

I understand why Chandler was left out, but losing our 2 LB options, our two best wingers, and leaving out our top two strikers in terms of club form...well, desperate times, isn't is? If Chandler is willing to become cup-tied to the US, you do it and take away the option if him going back to Germany, not that they want him anyway. I know Altidore hasn't had top form for the nats, but what he's doing in Holland, a better league than the MLS, shouldn't be discounted for guys that also haven't done anything at the NT level recently either. And not adding Lichaj while saying "anyone can play LB", well that's just silly, especially when you consider that in the past 15 years, our best LB was probably David Regis.

We need to be able to score at A&B. That game is a must-win, if they hold out for a goalless draw, honestly I could see an argument for Klinsmann not managing Tuesday's game. I know he was a hire made with the long-term in mind, but coming 3rd in this group that frankly isn't all that strong would be inexcusable. And acting as though these injuries were part of the plan (why else wouldn't he make some emergency call-ups?) is just a bit unnerving.

Either way, tomorrow should never have been a must-win situation.

[GGGG]

Yeah, it doesn't matter what he has done to fix USA Soccer if they guy can't get the US into even the final round of qualifying for the world cup.

BTW, if MLS was a European league, where would it rank?  Thoughts?

[brewcity77]

Yeah, it doesn't matter what he has done to fix USA Soccer if they guy can't get the US into even the final round of qualifying for the world cup.

BTW, if MLS was a European league, where would it rank?  Thoughts?

The EPL, La Liga, and Serie A are definitely the top 3 leagues. The next tier is led by the Bundesliga and I'd include Portugal, France, Russia, and Holland. I think the MLS would probably be on par with the third tier of leagues, where I'd put the Greek, Turkish, Danish, and Belgian leagues. They have some good teams and players that could compete in top leagues, but not nearly the consistency of talent you find in the top 7-8 leagues.

Just my guess, though. If you're looking at just England, I'd say probably high League One to low Championship level.

[GGGG]

OK, that is actually a little better than I thought.  Thanks.

[PaintTouches]

No real research done behind this but here's my crack at it:

1)EPL
2)La Liga
3)Bundesliga
4)Serie A
5)France
6)Holland
7)Portugal
8)Turkey
9)Russia
10)Mexico
11)Greece
12)MLS
13)Belgium
14)The rest

The MLS has been mining young Latin America very well, and has managed it's DP signings smartly, so the league doesn't become a retirement league for over the hill stars looking for one more pay day. I honestly believe the MLS will overtake the Mexican league within the next 3 or 4 years. The pay will never reach the MX League, but the living conditions and opportunity for advancement is greater for players here. 

[Golden Avalanche]

I'd rather wait until the event occurs before I decide to jump off the bridge. Novel concept. But I get that stressing and needling is hand-in-hand with sports these days.

The two best players this country has at the moment are in the squad. The relative intelligence of the squad is higher in terms of tactics than perhaps any time in history. And, they're playing unnatural carnal knowledgeing Antigua & Barbuda.

Let's see what happens now.

[GGGG]

They beat A&B 2-1 on a stoppage time goal...by Eddie Johnson. 

[brewcity77]

This team frustrates the hell out of me. For all the positives we've seen since Klinsmann took over, there are just as many worries. Our back line isn't nearly as cohesive, after scoring we always seem susceptible to giving it right back, we are rarely able to put our foot down and seal the game. I really want to believe in the Klinsmann project, but I've been a skeptic since he was hired, and if this is what we're going to get, I don't see why Bob Bradley was fired. Two things I feel positive of, we wouldn't have given up so many setpiece goals with Bob at the helm and we would have qualified for the Hex by now.

We have a good team. On our day, we can beat anyone. But we are maddeningly inconsistent and simply not there yet as an international team. It's really too bad we pissed away the lead in the Confederations Cup Final 3 years ago. I have a feeling that is the closest I'll ever see us get to winning a (semi-) major trophy.

[jesmu84]

This team frustrates the hell out of me. For all the positives we've seen since Klinsmann took over, there are just as many worries. Our back line isn't nearly as cohesive, after scoring we always seem susceptible to giving it right back, we are rarely able to put our foot down and seal the game. I really want to believe in the Klinsmann project, but I've been a skeptic since he was hired, and if this is what we're going to get, I don't see why Bob Bradley was fired. Two things I feel positive of, we wouldn't have given up so many setpiece goals with Bob at the helm and we would have qualified for the Hex by now.

We have a good team. On our day, we can beat anyone. But we are maddeningly inconsistent and simply not there yet as an international team. It's really too bad we pissed away the lead in the Confederations Cup Final 3 years ago. I have a feeling that is the closest I'll ever see us get to winning a (semi-) major trophy.

agreed about the consistency. definitely frustrating. I think Bradley had to go as we had maximized our potential with him at the helm. However, in Bradley's case, we almost always held the same formation, with the same tactics, with the same players in the same roles. In the case of Klinsmann, it seems like most of our problems arise from no consistent starters, no consistent formation, no consistent tactics/strategy and no consistent roles for the starters. When it Klinsmann going to find a rotation and stick to it? As well as a formation/tactic we can rely on.

[robmufan]

Another 3 pts, and a lock for the Hex round.  By looking at the teams involved...there is no reason why the US should not qualify (with a healthy team).

[Golden Avalanche]

Waiting for the riposte on the strange selections of Klinsmann after the few days of teeth gnashing prior to either of the two matches being played and it seems to be large chorus of crickets. Six points will do that.

[robmufan]

There have been a rash of injuries, hopefully we will see the full team going forward next year.  The defense has to get better if they want to do any damage in Brazil!

[caltruda]

I'm willing to eat crow for these two matches. However, I maintain picking a public fight with a striker who can be (operational phrase: can be) the focal offensive point in 2014 and especially post-2014 given the lack of proven scoring depth is unwise. And some of that attitude probably came from Klinsi's tactics and personnel choices that led to woeful service that didn't play to Altidore's best skill set.

I understand the semifinal round has a far less margin of error than the hex, but progressing should not have come down to getting two non-loss results the final two matchdays.

This match showed how much this team needs Dempsey version EPL and Bradley version Serie A in the outfield to be a team not only capable of beating a world power but a team with a viable chance to scrape out at least one point from every match in the hex against teams not named Mexico in 2013.

The back line is still a mess... whether it be age, lack of communication, lack of talent, lack of speed, lack of consistency, lack of whatever. They gave up goals in five of the six matches, including both against A/B. Howard is still asked to clean up far too many messes than any comparable world-class 'keeper.

I know there are cycles within cycles as a team builds. Even with Altidore in the wilderness, the offense of the national team is ahead of the defense in terms of field players. And even as presently constructed, it would take a miracle for them not to qualify for Rio. However, I don't think it's wrong to hold this team to a higher expectations given what Klinsmann has professed he wants to instill.

[GGGG]

Guatemala wasn't the toughest of opponents.  I think this team is clearly behind Mexico.  But they are above the rest of the Concacaf group.  My guess is that 17 points gets them there.

If they can go 3-1-1 (10 points) at home, and 2-2-1 on the road (7 points), that should be good enough.  (In 2010, they went 4-0-1 and 2-2-1 on the road.)

[Golden Avalanche]

The back line is still a mess... whether it be age, lack of communication, lack of talent, lack of speed, lack of consistency, lack of whatever. They gave up goals in five of the six matches, including both against A/B. Howard is still asked to clean up far too many messes than any comparable world-class 'keeper.

I know there are cycles within cycles as a team builds. Even with Altidore in the wilderness, the offense of the national team is ahead of the defense in terms of field players. And even as presently constructed, it would take a miracle for them not to qualify for Rio. However, I don't think it's wrong to hold this team to a higher expectations given what Klinsmann has professed he wants to instill.

The early goal against seemed to be a running theme from the end of Bradley's tenure into Klinsmann's. Of course the only thing that has remained the same is the players but is it that easy to determine the fault? Add to it defenders playing different positions between their time at a club and their time in the USA shirt and it's no shock it looks like a house fire back there.

The front third of the team as a collective is perhaps its most talented in decades which is exciting considering the brutal stretches some of us have witnessed in simply attempting a scoring chance much less converting. Because of this you won't see Klinsmann feel obliged to any certain player since he's much more capable of taking a chance on a resurgent player or a youngster.

In the end, the team will qualify and placed into a typical group that will include one heavyweight, one country a level above, and one country a level below. It's just a matter of whether the key components are on form in June 2014 and seeing how far away that is none of these results ever give me much bother.

[brewcity77]

The Hexagonal is going to be tough. Very, very tough. What scares me is that Klinsmann has shown me nothing to believe he can get points in Central America. Jamaica making it in really helps, but bear in mind how much trouble we had with them both home and away, and consider that they are by far the easiest team we'll face in the Hex.

Since the start of the Hexagonal, only one team has advanced to the World Cup with less than 16 points, so I think that's the minimum we should be aiming for. Sultan's figure of 17 is probably a safer bet for automatic qualification and not having to win a play-off with New Zealand.

The biggest problem is road points. We should expect to lose at Mexico. Honestly, based off third-round form, I expect to lose at Honduras and Costa Rica as well. Guatemala and Jamaica aren't nearly as good as either the Catrachos or Ticos, and we earned a combined 1 road point off those two in the last round. So looking objectively, if we get 1 point combined out of the Central America powers, that's probably as good as we can hope for and means we either need to win both at Jamaica and at Panama (also very tough place to play) or get at least 12 points at home.

Quite simply, we need to be better. Our back line needs to be tighter and more disciplined. We have to stop giving up so many quality setpiece opportunities. We need a style that suits who is playing at the time. You can't build your attack around big target men if you don't have anyone playing wide that can provide them with reliable service. What we got away with against A&B and Guatemala simply won't work against teams that have actual World Cup aspirations. Hell, Guatemala was missing four of their top five central defenders, and we still struggled to break them down. That won't be good enough against Honduran or Costa Rican first choice defenders, and certainly not against Mexico.

I know we can blame injuries, but that's a crap excuse. You play the hand you're dealt. There's no guarantee that Holden, Castillo, Shea, Johnson, or Donovan will be fit for the Hex. And Klinsmann can't keep holding these grudges. Jozy is in fine form, he needs to get the call. I know Timmy Chandler's ego was an issue, but if he's willing to be cup-tied to us, you take him, especially when you have no other wide players.

Perhaps most important, we NEED to use our home games to our advantage. No games in Houston, Chicago, or New York where our own fans will be outnumbered in a "home" stadium. Columbus, Kansas City, Seattle, SLC, Portland, these are the places we need to play. And Mexico has to be in Columbus. I really think we need at least 12 points at home to qualify, more likely 13 or 15 (like we did for 2006 and 2010). I've never felt as unassured going into the Hex as I do this year.

[PaintTouches]

While you do make some salient point Brew, I don't think the U.S. has much to fear. If you remember, Mexico literally had to beg Honduras to stop scoring (I'd embed the video of Oswaldo telling an Honduran player but I can't at work) in order to make it into the Hex last time around. Yet, the Hex was a relative breeze, as Mexico qualified comfortably with a game to spare.

I was very critical of Jurgen's selection and just because they beat A&B with a 90th minute goal and a depleted Guatemalan side at home doesn't change the fact that he played with fire. Donovan and Brek were still injured and should have been left home. No offense to Michael Parkhurst, but it's criminal to have a player with no left foot and very little attacking prowess playing left back against teams that will bunker in. Likewise, leaving Jozy of the roster serves no purpose other than to "light a fire," a risky proposition to make in due or die situations. Eddie had a great two games, but I'd put my trust in an in-form Jozy over him any day, particularly looking forward to 2014.

Ultimately, Jurgen is a critical stepping stone for U.S. progress. He is not a great tactical coach by any means, but the system and mentality he is laying (particularly in the youth levels) was and is what the doctor ordered. I have no qualms with him at the helm the next two years, but not beyond that.

[reinko]

Brew, I get your points about having a true home field advantage, but there is no way we will schedule games in Portland and Seattle b/c they are both field turf, and not grass. 

So you can include C'Bus, KC, Salt, also Nashville, and Hartford as other possible "true" home field advantage sites in soccer-specific, grass fields.  If the US Fed needs a NFL size stadium for the revenue, I would vote RFK over Chicago, Dallas, Tampa...

[brewcity77]

I agree with much of that. I think Jurgen could have long-term benefits, but I worry about the cost. We have never won at Costa Rica in the Hex and have been outscored 11-3 there. It is highly unlikely we will get anything at the Azteca. And to get points out of Panama or Honduras, we need good selections.

When our top two LBs went down, why didn't Eric Lichaj get a call? As you note, Parkhurst was senseless. When Graham Zusi is our best available winger, there's a problem. Why not push Dempsey wide (he was near-useless against A&B) or call up Chandler or some of the younger kids? And no Altidore nor Boyd was just silly. So while it's easy to say that we succeeded despite some questionable (at best) choices, what expectation should we have of more sensible choices when the level of competition goes up?

I still think we will qualify for the World Cup. I still think we are the second most talented team in the region and think we can get 17 points. But I look at where this team is and we've clearly moved back from just 2 years ago. We haven't found anyone to replace Donovan or Dempsey and both are aging. We've traded an in-their-prime defense of Boca, Dolo, Gooch, and DeMerit for Boca, Dolo (both 35 in 2014), Fab, and Cameron. We still have no strikers that give much hope, and the ones we do have can't get a match because of a grudge from the manager. These are near-unforgivable sins. We're regressing, not progressing.

[jesmu84]

I agree with much of that. I think Jurgen could have long-term benefits, but I worry about the cost. We have never won at Costa Rica in the Hex and have been outscored 11-3 there. It is highly unlikely we will get anything at the Azteca. And to get points out of Panama or Honduras, we need good selections.

When our top two LBs went down, why didn't Eric Lichaj get a call? As you note, Parkhurst was senseless. When Graham Zusi is our best available winger, there's a problem. Why not push Dempsey wide (he was near-useless against A&B) or call up Chandler or some of the younger kids? And no Altidore nor Boyd was just silly. So while it's easy to say that we succeeded despite some questionable (at best) choices, what expectation should we have of more sensible choices when the level of competition goes up?

I still think we will qualify for the World Cup. I still think we are the second most talented team in the region and think we can get 17 points. But I look at where this team is and we've clearly moved back from just 2 years ago. We haven't found anyone to replace Donovan or Dempsey and both are aging. We've traded an in-their-prime defense of Boca, Dolo, Gooch, and DeMerit for Boca, Dolo (both 35 in 2014), Fab, and Cameron. We still have no strikers that give much hope, and the ones we do have can't get a match because of a grudge from the manager. These are near-unforgivable sins. We're regressing, not progressing.

Spot on with the criticisms of keeping an injured Donovan and Shea on the team and not making any call ups. Where's Lichaj? Where's Adu? Where's Gatt, Gyau? Where's the plethora of young CBs?

I'm supremely optimistic about what Klinsmann will do with the youth and scouting networks and that will pay off in a decade, but as for now...? not too optimistic. I honestly believe Jurgen should have been hired as Technical Director, not head coach.

In comparing Bradley vs. Klinsmann, I think Bradley understood the style and tactics it takes to get points in CONCACAF (field conditions, field size, opposing team abilities), but may have lacked the technical acumen to win against Europe, etc. I think Klinsmann is the opposite - he tries to build our team in style and players for competition against France on a beautiful, wide-open pitch, without factoring in playing against Jamaica in the rain on a s*** field. It will be interesting to see if JK adjusts for away games in the Hex.

Also, to be fair to JK, both Arena and Bradley relied on a number of the same players without developing much youth, leaving JK without many young, talented choices in the player pool. I think he's been trying to catch up with that deficit during qualifying.

[brewcity77]

I'm with you on most of what you said, and I agree that philosophically, Klinsmann's style better suits a wide-open, WC style game. What worries me is about that is whether or not we have players with the requisite technical ability to pull off such a system. However, I disagree with this...

Also, to be fair to JK, both Arena and Bradley relied on a number of the same players without developing much youth, leaving JK without many young, talented choices in the player pool. I think he's been trying to catch up with that deficit during qualifying.

Bob Bradley gave chances to more young players than any other American coach ever has. I realize not all of these guys worked out, but all of these players were given a chance under Bradley:

Keepers: Troy Perkins, Luis Robles, Nick Rimando, David Yelldell, Sean Johnson

Defenders: Johnathan Bornstein, Bryan Namoff, Frank Simek, Jay DeMerit, Marvel Wynne, Drew Moor, Heath Pearce, Danny Szetela, Chad Barrett, Michael Orozco Fiscal, Michael Parkhurst, Clarence Goodson, Jay Heaps, Omar Gonzalez, Eric Lichaj, Gale Agbossoumonde, Tim Ream, Nat Borchers, Sean Franklin, Zach Loyd, Timmy Chandler

Midfielders: Kyle Beckerman, Justin Mapp, Benny Feilhaber, Sacha Kljestan, Ben Olsen, Sal Zizzo, Maurice Edu, Lee Nguyen, Robbie Rogers, Jose Torres, Stuart Holden, Logan Pause, Sam Cronin, Alejandro Bedoya, Jermaine Jones, Brek Shea, Mix Diskerud, Jeff Larentowicz, Anthony Wallace

Forwards: Kenny Cooper, Herculez Gomez, Davy Arnaud, Kamani Hill, Robbie Findley, Jozy Altidore, Charlie Davies, Conor Casey, Dax McCarty, Juan Agudelo, Teal Bunbury, Chris Wondolowski

During the 2010 World Cup cycle, Bradley gave more debuts and used more players than any other USA manager had ever used. And while it's accurate to say that he eventually settled into a consistent group of players, by the end that group included Howard, Cherundolo, Bocanegra, Goodson, Bradley, Jones, Donovan, and Dempsey. That's 8 of Jurgen Klinsmann's current 11 first-choice starters, so it isn't as if JK has been mixing it up or trying to utilize different players from the pool.

I understand why Bradley was fired, and understand why many (myself included) thought it was time for him to go, but relying on the same group of players without trying to develop the youth simply wasn't it.

[brewcity77]

One interesting, non-related talking point. Does anyone think that Landon Donovan will break the all-time international caps record? Donovan at age 30 has 144 international caps, 20 behind Cobi Jones for the USA record and 40 behind Ahmed Hassan with 184 for Egypt.

Donovan only earned 6 caps this year, but if healthy will have the opportunity for many more in the next 2 years. In 2013 and 2014, we will most likely play at least 20 major international matches (Qualifiers, Gold Cup, World Cup) and another 10-15 friendlies. I have to think a healthy Donovan would play in 25 of those matches, putting him at 169 after the next World Cup.

The question at that point, would he continue? He'd be age 32, not young, but not automatic retirement age. Both Bocanegra and Cherundolo are already older than that. If LD played one more year through the 2015 Gold Cup, he'd almost certainly pass Claudio Suarez for the most caps ever by a CONCACAF player (178) and could be right on the heels of Hassan.

However...the 37-year-old Hassan is still playing internationally and his goal is to play in the 2014 World Cup. Between qualification and the World Cup, Hassan could play as many as 16 more games, leaving him at 200 caps. Could Donovan reach that total?

[jesmu84]

One interesting, non-related talking point. Does anyone think that Landon Donovan will break the all-time international caps record? Donovan at age 30 has 144 international caps, 20 behind Cobi Jones for the USA record and 40 behind Ahmed Hassan with 184 for Egypt.

Donovan only earned 6 caps this year, but if healthy will have the opportunity for many more in the next 2 years. In 2013 and 2014, we will most likely play at least 20 major international matches (Qualifiers, Gold Cup, World Cup) and another 10-15 friendlies. I have to think a healthy Donovan would play in 25 of those matches, putting him at 169 after the next World Cup.

The question at that point, would he continue? He'd be age 32, not young, but not automatic retirement age. Both Bocanegra and Cherundolo are already older than that. If LD played one more year through the 2015 Gold Cup, he'd almost certainly pass Claudio Suarez for the most caps ever by a CONCACAF player (178) and could be right on the heels of Hassan.

However...the 37-year-old Hassan is still playing internationally and his goal is to play in the 2014 World Cup. Between qualification and the World Cup, Hassan could play as many as 16 more games, leaving him at 200 caps. Could Donovan reach that total?

Good question. Donovan has been extremely successful as a player because, mostly, of his pace. At 30+, that's going to decrease significantly.  To continue to be a factor in the USMNT going past 31/32, he would have to develop/alter his game (sort of like Jordan when he became a jump shooter). This transformation could be helped by Klinsmann as he bases his strategy around buildup and possession rather than pure speed/counterattacking.  I'm not sure if LD has the IQ/technical ability to turn into a holding/playmaking CM (like Pierlo from Italy) where his physical traits wouldn't be as big a factor, but I'm pretty sure that's what he'd have to do to play into mid, late 30s

[JWags85]

Good question. Donovan has been extremely successful as a player because, mostly, of his pace. At 30+, that's going to decrease significantly.  To continue to be a factor in the USMNT going past 31/32, he would have to develop/alter his game (sort of like Jordan when he became a jump shooter). This transformation could be helped by Klinsmann as he bases his strategy around buildup and possession rather than pure speed/counterattacking.  I'm not sure if LD has the IQ/technical ability to turn into a holding/playmaking CM (like Pierlo from Italy) where his physical traits wouldn't be as big a factor, but I'm pretty sure that's what he'd have to do to play into mid, late 30s

Donovan has always kind of been a selfish player.  A fantastic player, but a selfish one no less.  Doesn't like/almost refuses to play defense, doesn't adjust his game when its not been going well.  Never really had the urge to make himself even better by spending full seasons in Europe playing against the best.  Part of it is not his fault as he has been US Soccer's golden boy for so long.  But still.  So asking him to completely change position and fall back into a CM role seems unlikely.  He and Michael Bradley are complete opposites in terms of style and soccer mentality.

[ChuckyChip]

NBC Universal will be the new broadcast home for the Premier League starting in 2013-2014 -

http://prosoccertalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/28/nbc-universal-acquires-exclusive-english-premier-league-rights-in-united-states/related/