Futbol Talk

[shoothoops]

I never played football.  My kids never played it either.  But we all watch it.  The idea that you have to participate in a sport to be interested in watching that sport on television isn't really accurate.

I didn't say that someone has to play American Football to watch it. (I also don't believe head coaches need to play a sport to coach it, in any sport, but that's another topic) .....However, there is some long term significance if some of the American Football hotbeds are seeing declining participation numbers over the past decade. As I said in my post, short term there aren't going to be many signficant changes with the NFL.

Where we disagree is saying MLS definitely can't be more or better long term than what it is now. I wouldn't agree with that statement.

[Pakuni]

This is false. If MLS paid like the EPL or La Liga, but the level of soccer is what it currently is, they wouldn’t attract stars. If you’re a top player, you can get paid anywhere. That’s why before MLS you saw top players go to the Middle East or Asia when they lost a step. China is a bit different, cause they weren’t matching salaries for guys like Oscar, Hulk, and others, they were beating it. But otherwise, most top international talent wants to make the money, but also play against the best. They won’t come to MLS, even for the fat paychecks, until that’s the case...or until they are older like they do now.

No. Stars will follow the money. Thinking that players would reject more money from the MLS because the level of competition is lower flies in the face of sports history (see: AFL, USFL, WHA, etc.). Star players have always followed the money, not the other players. Joe Namath didn't go to the AFL because it was the better league.
And certainly not the schedule, not the alignment of transfer windows and not when breaks occur. If the MLS could consistently offer comparable money to the other leagues across the board - not just to a handful of DPs - it would get comparable talent. You really think, all things being equal, many young star athletes would rather live in Dortmund or Liverpool or Naples than LA, New York, Miami or Chicago?
The problem is that league revenues don't allow them to come close to offering equal compensation across the board. Heck, players in the Championship on average earn twice as much as those here. MLS can give a few guys top dollar, but not nearly enough. And so for the few big-money signings clubs can make, they'd rather sign a huge name that may be  over the hill than a lesser-known player in his prime, because the former is going to sell a lot more tickets than the latter.

Best case scenario is MLS combining with LigaMX.

Yuck. Sick. Gross.
MLS already is too big and getting too bigger. Adding 16 more teams from Mexico only makes things worse. It's impossible to build fan interest/recognition of clubs and players across the league when you've got nearly 50 clubs to keep track of.

FWIW, saying soccer isn’t culturally significant and won’t be for the next 20-30 years is pretty asinine.

Nobody said this.
That said, I'm old enough to remember soccer being hailed as the sport of the future in the U.S. back in the 1970s.
The only thing asinine here is a suggestion that some team in the Premiere League or Bundesliga would draw a similar following to the local NFL team.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

My understanding is that the merger with Liga MX would bring in a pro/rel concept between two leagues. 

[Its DJOver]

FWIW there are reports that 34 year old David Silva, 33 year old Edinson Cavani, and 35 year old Thiago Silva have all turned down what I can only assume were massive contract offers from David Beckam's Inter Miami.  This does not support the narrative that stars will always follow the money. 

[Pakuni]

My understanding is that the merger with Liga MX would bring in a pro/rel concept between two leagues.

If you're a club owner who just spent $200 million to get an MLS franchise, why would you agree to this?

[Pakuni]

FWIW there are reports that 34 year old David Silva, 33 year old Edinson Cavani, and 35 year old Thiago Silva have all turned down what I can only assume were massive contract offers from David Beckam's Inter Miami.  This does not support the narrative that stars will always follow the money.

As of 6/12, Silva is considering a move to Miami:
https://www.football-espana.net/2020/06/12/man-citys-david-silva-considering-mls-move

But you're right, it's hyperbole to say every player will always go to the highest bidder every time.
So let's just say the great majority of players will go to the highest bidder on the great majority of occasions.

[Billy Hoyle]

If you're a club owner who just spent $200 million to get an MLS franchise, why would you agree to this?

Pro/Rel works in places like England where the sports hierarchy goes top soccer league (EPL), second soccer league (Championship), third soccer league (League One), and so on. But in the US there is so much competition for the sporting dollar that not being in MLS is a death knell for a franchise. Even in the best MLS markets like Portland, Seattle, and SLC, the USL sides average under 3K a game (under 1K in KC). Only three USL teams averaged above 10K in attendance last season, all in markets with no other professional teams they compete with during the season, New Mexico (in their inaugural season), Indy, Sacramento.

[JWags85]

No. Stars will follow the money. Thinking that players would reject more money from the MLS because the level of competition is lower flies in the face of sports history (see: AFL, USFL, WHA, etc.). Star players have always followed the money, not the other players. Joe Namath didn't go to the AFL because it was the better league.
And certainly not the schedule, not the alignment of transfer windows and not when breaks occur. If the MLS could consistently offer comparable money to the other leagues across the board - not just to a handful of DPs - it would get comparable talent. You really think, all things being equal, many young star athletes would rather live in Dortmund or Liverpool or Naples than LA, New York, Miami or Chicago?

The MLS has 25 players that make more than $2MM a season, which is higher than the average salary for every Bundesliga team not named BVB, Bayern, Leverkusen, Leipzig, or Wolfsburg, aka the Champions League contending teams.  Higher than the average salary for every team in Ligue 1 outside of PSG, Monaco, Lyon, and Marseille. Same for Spain outside of the top 4-5 as well.

The MLS average is not there, no, but the top salaries, which would be needed to snatch players from top 4 Euro leagues (even if they are not Liverpool or BVB caliber) are sufficient if it was just about the money. and MLS has been very clear that they will fund whatever if the player will come.  But the quality of play is nowhere near enough.  You move to MLS in your prime from a European league and you can pretty much kiss your chances of National Team selection goodbye.

Guys that are DPs and making 2.5/3/4MM in MLS would never sniff those salaries in Europe cause they’d not get slotted on teams that would pay them that. Hell Josef Martinez has been unstoppable in MLS, and he was rumored for a Newcastle transfer...he would likely have had to take a pay cut unless they were ready to make him their second highest paid player.

Nobody said this.
That said, I'm old enough to remember soccer being hailed as the sport of the future in the U.S. back in the 1970s.
The only thing asinine here is a suggestion that some team in the Premiere League or Bundesliga would draw a similar following to the local NFL team.

Fluffy literally said it wouldn’t be culturally significant here in his life time.

And I never said it would draw the same following. But the idea that MLS has to bend to and cater to all those other leagues to gain any fans is wrong, that’s all I’m saying. A kid has easy and ready access to all the European soccer they want. Which is a gateway to soccer that fuels an interest in domestic leagues as well. 

The youth boom of the 70s and 80s and 90s largely failed cause it dead ended. Hell, when I first started loving Liverpool, you were lucky if you caught highlights or matches on tape delay.  Now there are hundreds of EPL matches a season, not to mention Serie A and Bundesliga on Fox and ESPN.  Suddenly the kids playing soccer have yet another exposure.

I’m not saying it’s taking over the NFL or NBA but acting like soccer is forever doomed to be a sideshow niche sport in the US cause people were wrong in their projections 40 years ago is incredibly short sighted and ignoring the changing landscape.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The MLS has 25 players that make more than $2MM a season, which higher than the average salary for every Bundesliga team not named BVB, Bayern, Leverkusen, Leipzig, or Wolfsburg, aka the Champions League contending teams.  Higher than the average salary for every team in Ligue 1 outside of PSG, Monaco, Lyon, and Marseille. Same for Spain outside of the top 4-5 as well.

The MLS average is not there, no, but the top salaries, which would be needed to snatch players from top 4 Euro leagues (even if they are not Liverpool or BVB caliber) are sufficient if it was just about the money. and MLS has been very clear that they will fund whatever if the player will come.  But the quality of play is nowhere near enough.  You move to MLS in your prime from a European league and you can pretty much kiss your chances of National Team selection goodbye.

Guys that are DPs and making 2.5/3/4MM in MLS would never sniff those salaries in Europe cause they’d not get slotted on teams that would pay them that. Hell Josef Martinez has been unstoppable in MLS, and he was rumored for a Newcastle transfer...he would likely have had to take a pay cut unless they were ready to make him their second highest paid player.o

Fluffy literally said it wouldn’t be culturally significant here in his life time.

I said not culturally significant enough to overcome the NFL, college football and the NBA.

[Pakuni]

The MLS has 25 players that make more than $2MM a season, which is higher than the average salary for every Bundesliga team not named BVB, Bayern, Leverkusen, Leipzig, or Wolfsburg, aka the Champions League contending teams.  Higher than the average salary for every team in Ligue 1 outside of PSG, Monaco, Lyon, and Marseille. Same for Spain outside of the top 4-5 as well. The MLS average is not there, no, but the top salaries, which would be needed to snatch players from top 4 Euro leagues (even if they are not Liverpool or BVB caliber) are sufficient if it was just about the money.

The average salary in La Liga is $2.95 million. In the Bundeliga it's $1.98 million. You noting that 25 players in the 26-team MLS make more than $2 million - i.e. less than one player per team - hardly makes the case that MLS top salaries "are sufficient." It''s evidence of the opposite.

Guys that are DPs and making 2.5/3/4MM in MLS would never sniff those salaries in Europe cause they’d not get slotted on teams that would pay them that. Hell Josef Martinez has been unstoppable in MLS, and he was rumored for a Newcastle transfer...he would likely have had to take a pay cut unless they were ready to make him their second highest paid player.

Can't speak to Martinez in particular, but as a rule it seems false. Let's look at some recent notable MLS to Europe transfers:
Miguel Almiron's base salary at Newcastle is between 1.5 million and 1.8 million pounds with bonuses. So $1.8 to $2.2 million. He was earning $1.9 million in Atlanta.
Alphonso Davies is getting $5.5 million a year at Bayern Munich. His salary in Vancouver was $72,500.
Tyler Adams is getting $1 million a year in Leipzig. His salary in New York was $103,000.
Chris Richards is getting $1.5-$2 million from Bayern. He was getting $123,000 in Dallas.
Zak Steffen is getting paid more than $1 million by Man City. He was earning $145,000 in Columbus.

I’m not saying it’s taking over the NFL or NBA but acting like soccer is forever doomed to be a sideshow niche sport in the US cause people were wrong in their projections 40 years ago is incredibly short sighted and ignoring the changing landscape.

I'm not saying this. I'm saying the key to MLS improving and expanding its fanbase lies in raising revenues by putting fans in the stadiums and getting more and better television exposure. Syncing the league's calendar to that of Europe doesn't do that. In fact, it likely harms those efforts. There are benefits to switching, but they don't outweigh its downside.

[JWags85]

The average salary in La Liga is $2.95 million. In the Bundeliga it's $1.98 million. You noting that 25 players in the 26-team MLS make more than $2 million - i.e. less than one player per team - hardly makes the case that MLS top salaries "are sufficient." It''s evidence of the opposite.

Thats a misrepresentation.  Cause as I highlighted, they are wildly skewed by Barca and Real and Atletico who have average salaries of something like $12MM, 11MM,and 8MM respectively.

Same as in the Bundesliga with teams like Bayern and BVB.

MLS wont be competing for those players.  They will be looking to bid for guys in their prime that play on mid table teams.  So those top salaries are relevant.  If its really "just about the money", they can come play for Inter Miami or LA FC and be the star for $3MM a season, which is more than they'd make in La Liga or the Bundesliga.  But they don't.  We haven't seen anyone do that.  European DPs over the years are coming from places like the English Championship, or Danish Superliga, or the Polish league.  The league can't attract middle level top 4 level players for their "stars" much less fill a team.

Can't speak to Martinez in particular, but as a rule it seems false. Let's look at some recent notable MLS to Europe transfers:
Miguel Almiron's base salary at Newcastle is between 1.5 million and 1.8 million pounds with bonuses. So $1.8 to $2.2 million. He was earning $1.9 million in Atlanta.
Alphonso Davies is getting $5.5 million a year at Bayern Munich. His salary in Vancouver was $72,500.
Tyler Adams is getting $1 million a year in Leipzig. His salary in New York was $103,000.
Chris Richards is getting $1.5-$2 million from Bayern. He was getting $123,000 in Dallas.
Zak Steffen is getting paid more than $1 million by Man City. He was earning $145,000 in Columbus.

Apples to oranges.  You're talking homegrown guys who came out of academies in the MLS as low paid players.  Almiron came relatively unproven from the Argentine league.

I'm talking the high paid players.  Josef Martinez was largely an bust in Italy and came in as a highly paid DP.  Where in Europe is paying Zardes $2MM+?  No team in La Liga or England is paying Alejandro Pozuelo $3.5MM+.  Carlos Gil rarely saw the pitch for a bottom tier La Liga club and he's a DP on $2.5MM+

Those are the guys I'm speaking of.  They are in the MLS making big money cause they couldn't get anywhere near it anywhere else.  $3.5MM a year should be able to pull someone from Sevilla or Gladbach or West Ham if playing in the US/MLS was so desirable and it was really just about the money.

Guys like Steffan and Adams and Davis got their start in academies but were right to get out as fast as they could for bigger things.  I can't recall a highly paid DP from the MLS transferring to a top league.  If they leave, its like Giavinco and they go to another big paycheck, low competition league.

[Its DJOver]

https://www.bundesliga.com/en/bundesliga/news/bryang-kayo-kobe-hernandez-foster-join-wolfsburg-usa-usmnt-12031

Let's keep the pipeline going.  This is why Pulisic and Reyna's success goes beyond what they do on they field, if they're inspiring others to go abroad and actually get better. 

[Billy Hoyle]

MLS wont be competing for those players.  They will be looking to bid for guys in their prime that play on mid table teams.  So those top salaries are relevant.  If its really "just about the money", they can come play for Inter Miami or LA FC and be the star for $3MM a season, which is more than they'd make in La Liga or the Bundesliga.  But they don't.  We haven't seen anyone do that.  European DPs over the years are coming from places like the English Championship, or Danish Superliga, or the Polish league.  The league can't attract middle level top 4 level players for their "stars" much less fill a team.

Apples to oranges.  You're talking homegrown guys who came out of academies in the MLS as low paid players.  Almiron came relatively unproven from the Argentine league.

Where MLS is seeing success is taking players from Central and South American leagues and national teams and now LigaMX. More stable societies, no worry about not being paid, no violence off the field. Diego Valeri (Argentina) of Portland rebuffed offers for MLS until he and his family were held up at gunpoint and robbed. He then called his agent and said "get me to MLS" and he's been a stud. Raul Ruidiaz (Peru) has been game changer for Seattle, as has been Nicolás Lodeiro (Uruguay). Others are Pity Martinez (Argentina), Sebastian Blanco (Argentina) the Charra Brothers (Columbia), Miguel Almiron (Paraguay, and now with Newcastle).    Giancarlo González (Costa Rica), the Dos Santos Brothers (Mexico) and Carlos Vela (Mexico).

[Pakuni]

Thats a misrepresentation.  Cause as I highlighted, they are wildly skewed by Barca and Real and Atletico who have average salaries of something like $12MM, 11MM,and 8MM respectively.

Same as in the Bundesliga with teams like Bayern and BVB.

Oh, and those 25 MLS players who earn more than $2 million don't wildly skew things here?
There are also wide disparities in MLS team payrolls. Toronto's salary payout for this year is more than $24 million. The LA Galaxy's is above $20 million. Vancouver, Houston and Philly all have payroll under $9 million. Why is that any different?

But this is all besides the point. The fact remains the MLS revenues  - and therefore salaries - are not "sufficient" to compete for top players, despite what you say. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Forget La Liga and the Bundesliga - MLS salaries don't even compete with the Championship or LigaMX.

Apples to oranges.  You're talking homegrown guys who came out of academies in the MLS as low paid players.  Almiron came relatively unproven from the Argentine league.

Excuse me for mixing sports metaphors, but you're shifting goalposts.

[JWags85]

Oh, and those 25 MLS players who earn more than $2 million don't wildly skew things here?
There are also wide disparities in MLS team payrolls. Toronto's salary payout for this year is more than $24 million. The LA Galaxy's is above $20 million. Vancouver, Houston and Philly all have payroll under $9 million. Why is that any different?


But this is all besides the point. The fact remains the MLS revenues  - and therefore salaries - are not "sufficient" to compete for top players, despite what you say. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Forget La Liga and the Bundesliga - MLS salaries don't even compete with the Championship or LigaMX.

Cause this is the league the MLS wants. “Stars” that are paid exorbitant amounts compared to the vast majority of MLS regulars. Yet again, why are you ignoring that countless guys contribute to EPL/La Liga/Bundesliga teams at below average wages. Let’s say $1MM. And they are superior players, earlier in their careers, than DPs getting $2.5MM deals in MLS. Why don’t they follow they money? They don’t care what the average pay is in the league?  MLS doesn’t have the cash to compete salary wise with top leagues, of course not, but they happily over pay for DPs.

Unless you mean “stars” only to mean guys like Rooney, Gerrard, Zlatan. Guys who are global names and not players who would be “stars” in the MLS based on relative ability and command the highest paychecks. Then we are talking different parallel paths. MLS overpaying for aging stars or castoffs from top leagues is dumb and financially counterintuitive to building better more complete rosters, but I’ve given up on that changing.

Excuse me for mixing sports metaphors, but you're shifting goalposts.

With all due respect, I never did. I talked about DPs like Josef Martinez from the start, as it relates to their financial options elsewhere and career paths if not MLS. You brought up the young talent that leveled up. If Weston McKinnie or Josh Sargent comes back to MLS, makes $3MM a year as a DP, then vaults back to a European club on a large wage packet. That’s a different story. MLS right now is a dead end for the players that come in as the high paid DPs at an advanced stage of their career. It’s an awesome opportunity for them that they won’t get many other places and it’s usually why they stay until they retire or go back to their home country and/or lower league for a last hurrah

[Pakuni]

Cause this is the league the MLS wants. “Stars” that are paid exorbitant amounts compared to the vast majority of MLS regulars. Yet again, why are you ignoring that countless guys contribute to EPL/La Liga/Bundesliga teams at below average wages. Let’s say $1MM. And they are superior players, earlier in their careers, than DPs getting $2.5MM deals in MLS. Why don’t they follow they money? They don’t care what the average pay is in the league?  MLS doesn’t have the cash to compete salary wise with top leagues, of course not, but they happily over pay for DPs.

Unless you mean “stars” only to mean guys like Rooney, Gerrard, Zlatan. Guys who are global names and not players who would be “stars” in the MLS based on relative ability and command the highest paychecks. Then we are talking different parallel paths. MLS overpaying for aging stars or castoffs from top leagues is dumb and financially counterintuitive to building better more complete rosters, but I’ve given up on that changing.

With all due respect, I never did. I talked about DPs like Josef Martinez from the start, as it relates to their financial options elsewhere and career paths if not MLS. You brought up the young talent that leveled up. If Weston McKinnie or Josh Sargent comes back to MLS, makes $3MM a year as a DP, then vaults back to a European club on a large wage packet. That’s a different story. MLS right now is a dead end for the players that come in as the high paid DPs at an advanced stage of their career. It’s an awesome opportunity for them that they won’t get many other places and it’s usually why they stay until they retire or go back to their home country and/or lower league for a last hurrah

Wags ... it's not a matter of those $1 million players turning down MLS money, it's that MLS doesn't want those players. An MLS club would rather use their rare seven-figure contracts on bigger names, even if over the hill, than a no-name player in his prime.
And no, it's not dumb. The league's survival depends on getting casual fans into the stadiums or watching on TV. An effective no-name player from Fulham or Augsburg isn't going to do that. Zlatan and Wayne Rooney will (and attendance and TV ratings support this).
Fluffy was right. As a hardcore soccer fan, you're only seeing this from the perspective of a hardcore soccer fan. While I respect that, you're failing to see things through the eyes of the kind of fan the MLS needs to grow.

At this point we're far off the subjects, which was the folly of switching to the Euro calendar, so I'm going to drop it.

[JWags85]

Wags ... it's not a matter of those $1 million players turning down MLS money, it's that MLS doesn't want those players. An MLS club would rather use their rare seven-figure contracts on bigger names, even if over the hill, than a no-name player in his prime.
And no, it's not dumb. The league's survival depends on getting casual fans into the stadiums or watching on TV. An effective no-name player from Fulham or Augsburg isn't going to do that. Zlatan and Wayne Rooney will (and attendance and TV ratings support this).
Fluffy was right. As a hardcore soccer fan, you're only seeing this from the perspective of a hardcore soccer fan. While I respect that, you're failing to see things through the eyes of the kind of fan the MLS needs to grow.

At this point we're far off the subjects, which was the folly of switching to the Euro calendar, so I'm going to drop it.

Fair enough. My last comment...MLS isn’t even committed to what you say.  Since 2018, there have been 50+ DPs signed. 5 match your description. Rooney, Zlatan, Vela, Chicharito, and ill even give you Alan Pulido to cater to that Mexican-American demo. They aren’t signing “no name” Europeans, they are signing no names from LatAm leagues and double/tripling their salaries.

You’re fine with the MLS being what it is. And that’s cool. But it’s to the detriment to USMNT and any claims about the league progressing in the right way on a global scale and being anything more than fairly well funded retirement league/developmental league for non-US OR Mexican members of CONCACAF can be tabled.

Looking at soccer, whether it be the MLS or the USMNT from an “American sports” perspective has got us here. And it is what it is, c’est la vie. At least be honest about it.

[Pakuni]

You’re fine with the MLS being what it is.

This is totally false. We just have different ideas about how to grow the league.
My idea involves giving the league more exposure and making it easier for them to watch and attend games. Your idea involves less exposure and makes it harder for fans to attend games.

[BM1090]

Well, Leeds officially win the Championship. Good for them. Bielsa has done an excellent job there.

Over the past 24 hours, WBA and Brentford losses to the bottom half of the table miraculously give Fulham a chance of auto-promotion on the final day. It's a very slim chance but I'll take it!

[JWags85]

Well, Leeds officially win the Championship. Good for them. Bielsa has done an excellent job there.

Over the past 24 hours, WBA and Brentford losses to the bottom half of the table miraculously give Fulham a chance of auto-promotion on the final day. It's a very slim chance but I'll take it!

Brentford desperately needs a result, leads the Championship in goals scored, plays a bad Stoke club who leaks goals and gives up more goals than everyone except the bottom 3-4 clubs...and they get blanked. And look completely lifeless. That’s how you resign yourself to a perpetual 2nd and 3rd tier existence

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Brentford needed four points in their last two against bottom dwellers. Now they need help or it’s the playoffs.

Would be nice for them to go up with a new stadium next year.

[Its DJOver]

TBF Brentford played out of their mind since before the pause. 10 straight wins in the championship is extremely impressive. Not a side I would want to face in a playoff.

[Its DJOver]

TBF Brentford played out of their mind since before the pause. 10 straight wins in the championship is extremely impressive. Not a side I would want to face in a playoff.

Although I do bet that back to back losses to close the season when it turns out only 2 points were needed to go up is less than ideal, especially with the second coming against Barnsley.  Crazy that Wigan are going down with a positive goal differential, while Luton finished 3 points clear despite being -28

[BM1090]

Although I do bet that back to back losses to close the season when it turns out only 2 points were needed to go up is less than ideal, especially with the second coming against Barnsley.  Crazy that Wigan are going down with a positive goal differential, while Luton finished 3 points clear despite being -28

You may be aware but Wigan had a 12 point deduction. That's the only reason they are going down. Conflicting reports on whether or not it could be overturned.

[Its DJOver]

You may be aware but Wigan had a 12 point deduction. That's the only reason they are going down. Conflicting reports on whether or not it could be overturned.

Musta missed that.  Thanks.  The margins are still razor thin the Championship, part of why it is so much fun to watch.