Indiana Elite Article

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I have little doubt that Indiana stopped short of doing anything illegal here. I have even less doubt that they hired Adam's kid and took the other guy's kid as a preferred walkon as part of a wink/wink, nod/nod deal. I have absolutely NO DOUBT that if Buzz engaged in technically legal conduct that was subsequently deemed smarmy enough to cause the NCAA to write a statute banning it, Chicos would be all over him. With Buzz, any rumor or innuendo that can cause the slightest negative perception is squirm-worthy. Yet this story and (at the very least) the perceptions it creates doesn't cause even a blip on his squim-o-meter. Total, utter, unabashed hypocrisy.

If ESPN ran this story about Marquette, Chicos would probably need another "time out" and he'd probably throw in reference to our players being "dogs."

[ringout]

I have little doubt that Indiana stopped short of doing anything illegal here. I have even less doubt that they hired Adam's kid and took the other guy's kid as a preferred walkon as part of a wink/wink, nod/nod deal. I have absolutely NO DOUBT that if Buzz engaged in technically legal conduct that was subsequently deemed smarmy enough to cause the NCAA to write a statute banning it, Chicos would be all over him. With Buzz, any rumor or innuendo that can cause the slightest negative perception is squirm-worthy. Yet this story and (at the very least) the perceptions it creates doesn't cause even a blip on his squim-o-meter. Total, utter, unabashed hypocrisy.

Now c'mon Lenny.  Chicos only calls it how he sees it.  Unless its IU.

[tower912]

I don't think that Crean is breaking any rules.    The scrutiny for the IU program right now is just too intense to be cheating.    However, I agree that CBB and M84 would be screaming to high heavens if the same thing was written about a Milwaukee area AAU program that had a large number of kids going to MU.    CBB would be squirming and saying I told you so and insinuating there was worse to come and M84 would be writing 500 word rebuttals about a phrase in somebody's post defending Buzz.      Ask yourselves, CBB and M84, if the names and locations were changed, would you be as vociferous in your defense (Chico) or as silent (M84)?    We all know the answers.   Characters revealed.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

[Bocephys]

The Big Lead has picked it up now.  Seems to be gaining steam, though they claim everything is technically legal.

http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/05/27/i-wonder-if-brad-stevens-is-monitoring-this-tom-crean-aau-mess-update/

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thanks for addressing exactly none of the questions posed by myself or the ESPN story.
Obfuscate all you wish (HBO? Nooses? Milwaukee Police? Cheating?), but one would have to be exceedingly naive or willfully ignorant to not to think something is fishy and that the timing of IU's sudden success with players from that AAU program is entirely unrelated to the hiring of the program head's son to a job for which he probably wasn't qualified.
Clearly ESPN, after a five-month investigation, doesn't think it's a coincidence. Neither do the kids who've played for Mark Adams. Maybe it's because they don't have your connections.
Nobody has said Tom Crean can't recruit. But his sudden success with one particular program after hiring the son of its operator is a little too convenient to ignore. Is it cheating? No, at least not then it wasn't. But it is shady. You've certainly squirmed over much less and I find it hard to believe you'd defend any other coach under these circumstances.

Let's cut to the chase, shall we.  Do you think Indiana is cheating here?  Do you think Duke is since they got players from Elite?  Butler?  Purdue?  I'm just curious as your feigned outrage seems to be at IU because of your dislike for the former coach.  

To me, this is all about A-Hope.  If they are doing something wrong, they will get tagged accordingly and players may be ineligible.  That stuff happens where players get benefits they shouldn't have but has nothing to do with the college.  This is the issue I have with you on this...what has IU done wrong on this?  From what I can tell...nothing.  All the improprieties, if any exist at all, are with the AAU program (wow, who would have thought that...AAU and problems) and this A-Hope organization.  At the end of the day, a number of schools get players from there, but you've made it this grand conspiracy that only IU is.  You've further gone down the path to suggest that the timing is all associated with Adams kid.  Well, then stick to your guns damnit.  If the players go there because of Adams, then they'll stop going there now that Adams isn't there.  But we all know that's not what you will say because you want to have it both ways.

Everything I'm reading says this is legal....including the 5 month investigation by ESPN.  Let me state that again...everything is legal.   The things I squirmed about with Buzz were things that we were accused of doing that were not considered "technically legal".   DO YOU GET IT?

[ChicosBailBonds]

The Big Lead has picked it up now.  Seems to be gaining steam, though they claim everything is technically legal.

http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/05/27/i-wonder-if-brad-stevens-is-monitoring-this-tom-crean-aau-mess-update/

This is also interesting

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/01/20/espn-fish-decline-interview-on-steelers-and-hgh-story

[brewcity77]

Let's cut to the chase, shall we.  Do you think Indiana is cheating here?  Do you think Duke is since they got players from Elite?  Butler?  Purdue?  I'm just curious as your feigned outrage seems to be at IU because of your dislike for the former coach.

The difference is because Indiana hired Adams. While it may not have been illegal at the time, it became illegal immediately afterwards. And let's be honest, the notion of colleges giving jobs to people and getting high-level recruits out of it has been going on for quite awhile and is something that makes most everyone involved squirm.

To me, this is all about A-Hope.  If they are doing something wrong, they will get tagged accordingly and players may be ineligible.  That stuff happens where players get benefits they shouldn't have but has nothing to do with the college.  This is the issue I have with you on this...what has IU done wrong on this?  From what I can tell...nothing.  All the improprieties, if any exist at all, are with the AAU program (wow, who would have thought that...AAU and problems) and this A-Hope organization.  At the end of the day, a number of schools get players from there, but you've made it this grand conspiracy that only IU is.  You've further gone down the path to suggest that the timing is all associated with Adams kid.  Well, then stick to your guns damnit.  If the players go there because of Adams, then they'll stop going there now that Adams isn't there.  But we all know that's not what you will say because you want to have it both ways.

It's not all about A-HOPE, but it's also not all about Indiana. It's also about Tennessee, who reaped the rewards while Adams was there and seemed to lose those benefits when he left, seemingly not under the most cordial of circumstances. On the other hand, Indiana and Adams seem to have parted under good circumstances, and it seems like the connection has helped Adams move forward. While UNM may get more players, that doesn't mean the Indiana pipeline will dry up.

Everything I'm reading says this is legal....including the 5 month investigation by ESPN.  Let me state that again...everything is legal.   The things I squirmed about with Buzz were things that we were accused of doing that were not considered "technically legal".   DO YOU GET IT?

It was legal...at the time. And rules have been written to make it illegal now. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it is ethical, and ESPN's article does a very good job of illustrating that while IU may not have been breaking any rules, they were certainly involved in a hiring that doesn't seem to be on the up-and-up.

It reminds me a bit of baseball players and steroids. Just because it wasn't banned by the game doesn't mean it was on the up-and-up when McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds were juicing. And I'm not talking about the legal ramifications. That's a completely different argument and has no place here. I'm strictly talking about them doing something to increase there numbers that was against the spirit of the game. It may not have been illegal at the time, but that doesn't mean they didn't know it wasn't ethical.

[Pakuni]

Let's cut to the chase, shall we.  Do you think Indiana is cheating here?  Do you think Duke is since they got players from Elite?  Butler?  Purdue?  I'm just curious as your feigned outrage seems to be at IU because of your dislike for the former coach.  

To me, this is all about A-Hope.  If they are doing something wrong, they will get tagged accordingly and players may be ineligible.  That stuff happens where players get benefits they shouldn't have but has nothing to do with the college.  This is the issue I have with you on this...what has IU done wrong on this?  From what I can tell...nothing.  All the improprieties, if any exist at all, are with the AAU program (wow, who would have thought that...AAU and problems) and this A-Hope organization.  At the end of the day, a number of schools get players from there, but you've made it this grand conspiracy that only IU is.  You've further gone down the path to suggest that the timing is all associated with Adams kid.  Well, then stick to your guns damnit.  If the players go there because of Adams, then they'll stop going there now that Adams isn't there.  But we all know that's not what you will say because you want to have it both ways.

Everything I'm reading says this is legal....including the 5 month investigation by ESPN.  Let me state that again...everything is legal.   The things I squirmed about with Buzz were things that we were accused of doing that were not considered "technically legal".   DO YOU GET IT?

Yes ... I get it. You have differing sets of ethical standards for different people and programs.
I've already answered your question about cheating. It was not cheating because what he did wasn't against the rules at the time. It is against the rules today.
But that's not the only point here. The point is that IU, Tom Crean and this AAU program have engaged in a sleazy relationship in which both sides benefit in several ways, including financially. A relationship that if involving Bob Huggins, John Caliapri, Rick Pitino or, God forbid, Buzz Williams, would have you in a squirm seizure.
The Adams family benefits in that Drew Adams got a job for which he probably wasn't qualified and opportunities to further a prospective coaching career that otherwise might not have existed.
IU benefits in that it gets a gaggle of elite players from a program that's been producing them in bunches.
Tom Crean benefits in that he gets to keep his $2+ million a year job.
How's this much different than Calipari hiring DeJuan Wagner's dad, or Larry Brown hiring Danny Manning's dad? It isn't.
Those moves also were legal. And like IU's, they were also slimy.

Interesting to learn you're OK with questionable behavior, so long as it's within the bounds of NCAA rules. I presume that means you'll be taking back everything you said about the DJ Newbill situation (you know ... the story that HBO looked into and took a pass on).

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yes ... I get it. You have differing sets of ethical standards for different people and programs.
I've already answered your question about cheating. It was not cheating because what he did wasn't against the rules at the time. It is against the rules today.
But that's not the only point here. The point is that IU, Tom Crean and this AAU program have engaged in a sleazy relationship in which both sides benefit in several ways, including financially. A relationship that if involving Bob Huggins, John Caliapri, Rick Pitino or, God forbid, Buzz Williams, would have you in a squirm seizure.
The Adams family benefits in that Drew Adams got a job for which he probably wasn't qualified and opportunities to further a prospective coaching career that otherwise might not have existed.
IU benefits in that it gets a gaggle of elite players from a program that's been producing them in bunches.
Tom Crean benefits in that he gets to keep his $2+ million a year job.
How's this much different than Calipari hiring DeJuan Wagner's dad, or Larry Brown hiring Danny Manning's dad? It isn't.
Those moves also were legal. And like IU's, they were also slimy.

Interesting to learn you're OK with questionable behavior, so long as it's within the bounds of NCAA rules. I presume that means you'll be taking back everything you said about the DJ Newbill situation (you know ... the story that HBO looked into and took a pass on).

Thanks for not answering my questions, what you accuse me of doing constantly...oh the irony.  Thank you also for putting words into my mouth. 

How it is different than hiring DeJuan Wagner's dad....are you f'ing serious?   Hiring Wagner meant Wagner went there.  Hiring Manning's dad meant Manning went there.  Hiring Adams means these kids went there?  Really?  It had nothing to do with wanting to stay in state?  NOOOOO.   It had nothing to do with wanting to play for a coach that has put guys in the NBA for the last 10 years?  NOOOO.  I just laugh how quickly you get there and to compare hiring Wagner's dad and Manning's dad to hiring a video coordinator who couldn't deliver a cup of coffee, let alone players is comical.  It's hard to take you serious when you are suggesting those hires are the same.  Truly comical.

[brewcity77]

Thanks for not answering my questions, what you accuse me of doing constantly...oh the irony.  Thank you also for putting words into my mouth. 

How it is different than hiring DeJuan Wagner's dad....are you f'ing serious?   Hiring Wagner meant Wagner went there.  Hiring Manning's dad meant Manning went there.  Hiring Adams means these kids went there?  Really?  It had nothing to do with wanting to stay in state?  NOOOOO.   It had nothing to do with wanting to play for a coach that has put guys in the NBA for the last 10 years?  NOOOO.  I just laugh how quickly you get there and to compare hiring Wagner's dad and Manning's dad to hiring a video coordinator who couldn't deliver a cup of coffee, let alone players is comical.  It's hard to take you serious when you are suggesting those hires are the same.  Truly comical.

Chicos, this is probably the least objective I've seen you in quite awhile. The article clearly states that some of these players were living with Adams, some of them relied on him for everything. It's entirely possible, and in some of these cases, likely that they built a brotherly relationship with Drew Adams. So at the end of the day, no, it's really not any different.

[Pakuni]

Thanks for not answering my questions, what you accuse me of doing constantly...oh the irony.  Thank you also for putting words into my mouth. 

In your previous post, you asked me two questions: whether I thought Indiana was cheating and whether I "get it."
I answered both.

You've obviously decided that TC can do no wrong and is above reproach,  despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary. If you wish to play ostrich, don't let me stop you.

[El Duderino]

I have little doubt that Indiana stopped short of doing anything illegal here. I have even less doubt that they hired Adam's kid and took the other guy's kid as a preferred walkon as part of a wink/wink, nod/nod deal.

Yea, this is the slimy underbelly of college recruiting. Crean certainly isn't the first coach to hire people for recruiting favors in return. If my memory is correct, this is a Calipari special. Top notch recruit commits to Calipari and them by complete coincidence, that recruit's family member gets hired on by the university Calipari is coaching at.

When coaches do this though, i'm sure they are careful to do it in ways to not break technical regulations, and i'm sure Crean did here. Yea it looks really sleazy, but if Crean didn't technically break any rules and all these recruits he got steered to Indiana help the program win, the fans there will be happy because let's face it, the vast majority of fans only care about winning so long as their program avoids any actual sanctions, regardless is things looks kinda sleazy.

Hell, Calipari is a prime example. Kentucky fans love him and will keep loving him so long as he keeps winning and can avoid getting the university in actual trouble. His sleazy factor is irrelevant to their fans.

[Hoopaloop]

Have to agree, the comparison with Manning and Wagner is a mighty stretch.

Wagner and Manning were asked to deliver their sons in exchange for a 4 year job and hundreds of thousands of dollars (in salary) for that delivery.  We're talking blood money.

Hiring this kid, who was qualified for the position, is going to deliver who exactly?  IU has been getting kids from this AAU program and others for a long time.  For full disclosure, I have a graduate degree from Purdue and would love to see Indiana get tagged but this seems like nothing but a big yawn.

It seems a mighty stretch to suggest kids were going to IU because some 20 something kid was there in a low level position where he was probably paid $30K a year or something.  Its certainly not close to the Wagner or Manning situation by any stretch.

[NersEllenson]

Have to agree, the comparison with Manning and Wagner is a mighty stretch.

Wagner and Manning were asked to deliver their sons in exchange for a 4 year job and hundreds of thousands of dollars (in salary) for that delivery.  We're talking blood money.

Hiring this kid, who was qualified for the position, is going to deliver who exactly?  IU has been getting kids from this AAU program and others for a long time.  For full disclosure, I have a graduate degree from Purdue and would love to see Indiana get tagged but this seems like nothing but a big yawn.

It seems a mighty stretch to suggest kids were going to IU because some 20 something kid was there in a low level position where he was probably paid $30K a year or something.  Its certainly not close to the Wagner or Manning situation by any stretch.

Hoop - You have a very curious posting history.  Your 20 posts thus far lead one to believe:  A - You are Chicos.  B. You are a friend of Chicos. C. Marquette 84, or D. Marquette 84's friend which makes you Chicos.

You sure seem pretty happy with Tom Crean's recruiting and alliance with the Indiana Elite for a Purdue grad.  From everything I know, Purdue and IU are firece rivals in hoops...yet you seem oddly a fan and supportive of Tom Crean/Indiana.  Am I missing something??

[Pakuni]

Have to agree, the comparison with Manning and Wagner is a mighty stretch.

Really?
Mark Adams provides some of these kids with food and shelter. He arranges for them to receive an education. He provides them with opportunities they'd never receive in their home lands. He's been described as a father figure to these kids.
And yet you think "it's a stretch" to think he'd have parental-like influence over them.
Hmmm.

Also, you've got your facts wrong.
If you think Milt Wagner earned "hundreds of thousands of dollars" as Memphis' coordinator of basketball operations - the same job for which you believe Drew Adams earned $30K at Indiana - you're out of your gourd.
And I very much doubt any assistant - much less Danny Manning's dad - was making a salary in the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in the mid 1980s. In fact, SI reported back then that Manning's salary was between $27,500 and $30,000.
How much did you say Drew Adams was probably earning?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1121385/index.htm

[Hoopaloop]

You sure seem pretty happy with Tom Crean's recruiting and alliance with the Indiana Elite for a Purdue grad.  From everything I know, Purdue and IU are firece rivals in hoops...yet you seem oddly a fan and supportive of Tom Crean/Indiana.  Am I missing something??

Do you have a graduate degree of some kind?  MBA?  Masters?  One's passion for their graduate school is much different than their experiences as an undergraduate and that includes supporting the teams.  In fact it is not uncommon for MU undergraduates to attend Wisconsin for graduate school, or Notre Dame, or DePaul.  Nor is it uncommon for Indiana undergraduates to attend Purdue for graduate school and vice versa.  Yes, Purdue and Indiana are rivals.  However, you seem to be stating that someone that went to one school cannot be objective about that school's rival.  Or am I missing something?

Objectivity is the name of the game.  That ESPN article was pretty weak and the subsequent articles that have come out to shed much brighter light on the situation shows Indiana didn't do anything wrong.  I fail to see how attending Purdue should make me less objective in my viewpoints simply because Indiana is one of the focuses of the article.  For that matter, so what Purdue since the Boilers have tapped into this AAU team over the years as well, some years receiving more players than IU has.   

Maybe you are incapable of objectivity when it comes to Indiana and Crean, whom you have shown to have a great disregard for.  Personally, he looks like a jerk and probably is but cheating has never been something that has been linked to him.

Hoop - You have a very curious posting history.  Your 20 posts thus far lead one to believe:  A - You are Chicos.  B. You are a friend of Chicos. C. Marquette 84, or D. Marquette 84's friend which makes you Chicos.

One would lead others to believe that you are either A- Buzz Williams.  B.  Buzz Williams wife.  C.  A friend of Buzz Williams.  D.  Buzz Williams mistress

[ChicosBailBonds]

Hey Ners, I'm at my son's travel ball baseball tournament...3 games today...we're in between game 1 and 2 so taking a break.  Maybe hooploop can join me here.  Lol.  You are a trip...glad the obsession you have with me, 84 and others extends into the Memorial Day weekend. 

Hooploop, welcome to the non lemming club in which you will have everything from your loyalty to your citizenship questioned by ners and his pals.  You might want to get your birth certificate ready for these guys

[NYWarrior]

Hey Ners, I'm at my son's travel ball baseball tournament...3 games today...we're in between game 1 and 2 so taking a break.  Maybe hooploop can join me here.  Lol.  You are a trip...glad the obsession you have with me, 84 and others extends into the Memorial Day weekend.

U talk about Ners' obsession with you.....in between your son's baseball games with the travel team?  

LOL  

[NersEllenson]

Maybe you are incapable of objectivity when it comes to Indiana and Crean, whom you have shown to have a great disregard for.  Personally, he looks like a jerk and probably is but cheating has never been something that has been linked to him.

One would lead others to believe that you are either A- Buzz Williams.  B.  Buzz Williams wife.  C.  A friend of Buzz Williams.  D.  Buzz Williams mistress

Actually Hoop - I don't have a great disregard for Crean - at all.  I have a great disregard for his biggest fan here, who constantly belittles our current coach.  I tend to be very supportive of the coach at my Alma mater - the CURRENT coach particularly when they have gotten the team great results in just 3 short years.  Yes, I'm very enthused with Buzz Williams and appreciate what he's done in his short time at MU.  I don't try to fault find every single thing I can about the CURRENT head coach of my Alma mater...WHILE CHAMPIONING EVERYTING ABOUT THE FORMER COACH.

Hypocrisy is a pet peeve of most people.  

[Marquette84]

Let's say he starts pushing one program after that program's head coach gives his kid a coveted job for which he's arguably not qualified.

Just curious--can you share the specific requirements of the job of Coordinator of Basketball Systems at IU that Drew Adams arguably lacked?

You say he was "arguably not qualified."

Well, make the argument.

There is ample evidence that Crean would consider this an entry level position--much as Todd Townsend was qualified enough to be hired as Director of Basketball Operations following his graduation in 2005 with zero coaching or playing experience.  Or Brian Wardle getting the same title in 2003 with two years of NBDL/CBA experience, but zero coaching.   

I think you'll be hard pressed to make any rational case that Drew Adams was any less qualified to be a mere "Coordinator of Basketball Systems" with two years as a Student Assistant at Tennessee under his belt.

[ChicosBailBonds]

U talk about Ners' obsession with you.....in between your son's baseball games with the travel team?  

LOL  

Nothing else to do Tim, sitting around 3 hours for the next game you get a little bored, decided to read MU Scoop and I come across Ners typical BS.  I wonder how many posters he doesn't agree with that he chalks up on his wall of enemies.  Joe McCarthyesque

[ChicosBailBonds]

Actually Hoop - I don't have a great disregard for Crean - at all.  

Really....you're such a liar sometimes it's pretty pathetic.

You keep saying you don't have a disregard yet you keep slipping in wonderful gems to contradict those statements...care to calibrate for us?  LOL.  Ironic...same thing you accuse me of.  Circle of life Simba

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos, this is probably the least objective I've seen you in quite awhile. The article clearly states that some of these players were living with Adams, some of them relied on him for everything. It's entirely possible, and in some of these cases, likely that they built a brotherly relationship with Drew Adams. So at the end of the day, no, it's really not any different.

Sorry Brew, "likely built a brotherly relationship"...how long would that statement last in court before being jettisoned out in a nanosecond.  You are totally speculating.  That is far different that HIRING THE FATHER.  Are you and Pakuni comparing hiring a kid's father with hiring a kid that "likely built a brotherly relationship"?  Come on, who's being objective and who isn't.  Listen to what you are saying.

A father that has been with them since birth for 18 years is equivalent to a KID that they lived with for one Summer.  WOW.  Yes Brew, at the END OF THE DAY, it's REALLY different.


PS   Pakuni...salary calculators says $30K in 1985 is worth anywhere from $58K to $91K in 2011 depending on the calculator you use.  I'd be curious to also know if Mrs. Manning and Mrs. Wagner were also setup with jobs in the town, that would also need to be added into the take.    Again...REALLY different.   As for the claim that this kid wasn't qualified, says who?  The guy was more qualified than most for those types of positions.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Objectivity is the name of the game.  That ESPN article was pretty weak and the subsequent articles that have come out to shed much brighter light on the situation shows Indiana didn't do anything wrong. 

A couple of things.  First, yes this could ultimately bite IU in the butt if something wrong was going on, but everything I'm hearing is that's absolutely nothing.  Glass has been aware of it for 2+ years and anyone who knows Glass knows he isn't tolerating ANYTHING that isn't on the up and up.  My biggest beef with the article is that there seems to be very little from the other side...whether it's from Purdue, UNC, IU, etc.  There are a few quotes from Crean, none from Glass, none from Purdue folks or any other schools.  That's typically how Fish does his stuff.  Lobs the grenade in and then you get the REST of the story the following days.


http://kentsterling.com/2011/05/26/indiana-basketball-does-the-relationship-between-tom-crean-and-mark-adams-smell-yep-like-success/


I don't know if anyone here knows who Julie Cromer is but it might be a wise move to understand who she is, first, and then understand what all this means.  That's my little hint for Pakuni, ners and a few others here.  Specifically look at Julie's background.