Butler to the Bobcats

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos, get over yourself and ratings.

The best talent, players, coaches, mascots, cheerleaders, TV announcers, PA announcers, everything exist in the NBA. That is not opinion, but fact.

There are many different aspects that are going into NCAA ratings versus NBA ratings, and you know that. Stop comparing apples and oranges.

No one ever said the best talent, coaches, players are in the NBA...I'd love for you to show where anyone said differently.  Cheerleaders...hmm, that might be up for debate...between 345 schools of cheerleaders vs 30....I'd be up for that challenge.

Funny you say stop comparing apples to oranges...you mean like comparing the NBA game vs the NCAA game....how ironic.  They are totally different games and a lot of people prefer THE COLLEGE GAME to the PRO GAME, despite the better players in the NBA.  This may be too nuanced for you, but that is also a FACT and I've got hundreds of millions of dollars to prove it with ratings and subscription revenue to back it up. 

You like the NBA...congrats.  I like college bball.  That's fine too.  It's possible to like both and equally possible to only like one.  Enjoy your weekend.

[🏀]

No one ever said the best talent, coaches, players are in the NBA...I'd love for you to show where anyone said differently.  Cheerleaders...hmm, that might be up for debate...between 345 schools of cheerleaders vs 30....I'd be up for that challenge.

Funny you say stop comparing apples to oranges...you mean like comparing the NBA game vs the NCAA game....how ironic.  They are totally different games and a lot of people prefer THE COLLEGE GAME to the PRO GAME, despite the better players in the NBA.  This may be too nuanced for you, but that is also a FACT and I've got hundreds of millions of dollars to prove it with ratings and subscription revenue to back it up. 

You like the NBA...congrats.  I like college bball.  That's fine too.  It's possible to like both and equally possible to only like one.  Enjoy your weekend.

I stated it before, I don't prefer the NBA.

However, I recongize I prefer an inferior basketball product.

[karavotsos]

Basketball is basketball.  It's the same game.  Otherwise, Buzz would not watch the last 4 minutes of close NBA games to get ideas for inbound plays to run, etc. 

The rules that are different are to create a faster and more difficult game for better athletes.  I think the college game would only benefit from a shorter shot clock.  8 v. 10 seconds to get the ball over halfcourt; who cares?  The longer 3-point shot spaces the floor more.  Obviously, the shorter 3-point shot in the NCAA game makes more teams more competitive because the easier the shot the more people can make it.

The two recent rule changes--the charge circle and the respect for the game rule-- are both great rules.  I didn't think I would like the respect for the game rule, but it makes the NBA game more watchable, and I became annoyed at college players this year (Pitt was the biggest culprit I could remember) for whining at the refs.  College coaches are probably the biggest offenders at this point, and the kids just take after their coaches.

I hope the CBA brings about a 2-3 year min for college players.  It will only make the college game better.  Also, if guys don't want to go to college, or they want to make money right away, then go to Europe.  It would be cool if European leagues became a type of alternative minor league system.

The argument equating popularity with quality is asinine.  It would then follow that Brittney Spears or Justin Beeber are the best musicians in the world.  And McDonalds, or some such thing, is the best food in the world.

I don't care whether people prefer college or pro ball.  I think they're both great, and they're different animals with their own problems.  It's all basketball.  When a guy or a team is doing something awesome on the court, I don't care how much money they're making.  There's more to the NBA than the Bulls and Thunder, and I think its going to be a great playoffs.  There have been great regular season NBA games all year. 

[burger]

I've been seeing Leuer's name a lot at the end of round 1, mostly going to the Bulls lately. Which I would hate, because I'm a Bulls fan, and frankly, with Noah, Boozer, Asik, Gibson, and even Thomas, I just don't see where Leuer fits in.

I'd love Butler in a Bulls uni, his defense would endear him to Thibodeau, he could back up at the 2 and 3. Though my first pick would be Marshon Brooks, we need a SG that can score a bit, and I think Brooks could develop into a 12-14 ppg guy.

First off:

The Bulls are built on defense.....Jimmy Butler is one of the best 2 guards (NBA) that can play defense against any 2/3...(similiar to WES)

The Bulls have a gaping whole at 2.....They have Corver who is instant offense at the 2....But they have a real slug in Bogans who will not be there next year.....

They need a flexable 2/3...Who can play defense....Share the ball.....Play within a "system" with a Hi BBall IQ....

Butler is absolutely perfect.....


Now my credentials over the past 2 years....(yes blowing my own horn)

1. I said Wes Matthews would be the first of the Amigos to make an NBA roster.....(I thought both James and McNeal would both make it eventually)....Maybe they will....We shall see.....PS....McNeal was just named 3rd team All Development league......not bad......

2. I said Lazar would get drafted within the first 10 picks of the 2nd round.....(I never thought he would make the first)


This is my educated prognostication.....We shall see.....I will admit if I am wrong.....

As a Bulls fan....I am worried he will get drafted earlier!

[GGGG]

Chicos...  The fact that you prefer college basketball is fine.  However, what set this entire thread off was the outdated statement that they don't play defense in the NBA.  The defense in the NBA is relentless.  Sure, there are times during the long regular season that it falters in the first half of some games.  But your initial statement was simply false.

[Mike_Marquette]

Nobody's giving guaranteed money to Jereme Richmond. Nobody

I couldn't agree more. I generally thing DraftExpress has insightful analysis. But the idea of Jereme Richmond going in the late first, maybe to a veteran team, is implausible.

[Lennys Tap]

Chicos...  The fact that you prefer college basketball is fine.  However, what set this entire thread off was the outdated statement that they don't play defense in the NBA.  The defense in the NBA is relentless.  Sure, there are times during the long regular season that it falters in the first half of some games.  But your initial statement was simply false.

True. Chico started with a simple factually false statement. Rather than just admit it he built a doctoral thesis around it.

[GGGG]

And let me tell you one thing....that first game of the NBA playoffs was better baketball than anything you saw in the NCAA tournament this year.

[Lennys Tap]

And let me tell you one thing....that first game of the NBA playoffs was better baketball than anything you saw in the NCAA tournament this year.

Agreed. If you like basketball, you absolutely had to like watching that game.

[jmayer1]

The NBA is better basketball than college. That is a fact. Some might like college better (attitude, $$, alma mater..etc) but to say college is a better game than the NBA isn't true no matter how you slice it. Also, to say that college and the NBA are different games is absurd.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Basketball is basketball.  It's the same game.  Otherwise, Buzz would not watch the last 4 minutes of close NBA games to get ideas for inbound plays to run, etc. 

It's not the same game in my opinion and I'm not alone.

That doesn't mean you can't learn by watching inbound plays from the NBA...in fact that's really ridiculous that you even bring that up.  Hell, I was watching an interview with a NHL coach the other day about a play they drew up which they said they stole from a basketball...a pick play by putting their players rubbing off the pick near the goal (just as in basketball they would do it near the basket).  Last I checked hockey and basketball were different games, but that doesn't mean you can't learn something from other sports that can work in your own.

Listening to Tim Donaghy this morning on the radio was just another reason to remind me about all the ills of the NBA (yes, the NCAA has had it's share as well).

[karavotsos]

And I read Juiced, so now I don't watch MLB.

Seriously.  Also, the measurements argument is not a legitimate argument.  You realize every MLB ballpark has different measurements, right?  Also, football games and tennis matches are played on different surfaces, and yet people all recognize a baseball game as a baseball game and a tennis match as a tennis match and a football game as a football game.  Aluminum bats, etc.

Also, you realize that players from college basketball who are successful go on to play in the NBA, right?  I don't know of one college basketball player who went on to play pro hockey (I'm sure you'll name someone, if there is one).  If college basketball and pro basketball were that different and hockey and basketball were that similar it seems there would be a greater crossover.

The hockey anecdote just shows to go you how much more intelligent bball coaches are than hockey coaches.  This anonymous coach really had to watch basketball to figure out that getting in a player's way stops him from getting where he wants to go?  Anyway, it was a great story, and I think Buzz said he watches a lot of hockey too to get ideas.  Sorry for bringing up such a stupid point.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos...  The fact that you prefer college basketball is fine.  However, what set this entire thread off was the outdated statement that they don't play defense in the NBA.  The defense in the NBA is relentless.  Sure, there are times during the long regular season that it falters in the first half of some games.  But your initial statement was simply false.

Your opinion.  I feel a number of teams often don't play defense the first 3 quarters.  The LA Clippers here in my hometown have been an example for years.  The Lakers, often this year, have mailed it in.  It's one reason I like the Celtics....Doc's teams play defense.  Phil's teams usually play defense, but this year they've been all over the board.

Your opinion is they play defense, my opinion is they don't consistently and do when the timing is right or the 4th quarter arrives.  I suppose it depends on what team you are watching.  Nothing infuriates me more than spending good money on a ticket, watching them dog it for 3 quarters and then SUDDENLY, as if a wizard from Kansas flies in and says "start playing defense now".  Some teams do it the whole game, but way too many of these clowns don't.  In the playoffs, yes, maximum effort.  Wouldn't it be nice to see that during the regular season at $75 a seat?

Again, my opinion is not solely mine just as there are many opinions that suggest NBA players play defense 24/7.  Sure, some teams play defense and certainly all of them do...when they feel like it.  Just another reason I prefer the college game because a college coach would yank a player for not playing defense.

http://dimemag.com/2010/01/the-defense-rests/

http://triadsportsdaily.com/post/3426971707

[GGGG]

Chicos...the players aren't stupid.  The season is 82 games long, over 100 if they are successful in the playoffs.  If they went all out every minute of every game, they'd be dead.  And you see that on both ends of the floor.  But look at an NBA game from the 70s or 80s and the one thing you would notice is how much better the players are now on both ends of the floor. 

Maybe the best solution would be to play less games.  The best NBA season I recall was the lockout shortened one of a few years ago that was only 50 games long. 

But watch an NBA playoff game and that's when you realize how incredible the game is.  In constrast, I think the NCAA tournament has been sucking for awhile.  Outside of the frenzy of the first and second round, there is a lot of bad basketball....especially this year's final four which was pretty much terrible.

[karavotsos]

Nothing infuriates me more than spending good money on a ticket, watching them dog it for 3 quarters and then SUDDENLY, as if a wizard from Kansas flies in and says "start playing defense now". 

I read this entire thread yesterday, and I am completely confused regarding whether you have watched NBA basketball in the past 20 years or not.   However, I think your quote above is at least part of what keeps people away.  Basketball is not MLB where you sit out in the sun for 3-4 hours and can just pretty much ignore the game and go just to go somewhere.  Its also not NFL where if you can go its 8-10 times a year, so you have to go.  Its less of an event.  The game has to entertain you, or you don't go. 

The last 2 years the circus atmosphere-at least in Milwaukee- is gone.  It's just NBA basketball.  And like you say if you don't like it, you don't like it.  And a fan's opinion can rightfully be based on one game.  This reality is what is what is going to have to be confronted at least somewhat in the new CBA.  It should be interesting.  I think Simmons on his podcast suggested smaller arenas.  I would love that.  Dont think its going to fly.

[Lennys Tap]

  Nothing infuriates me more than spending good money on a ticket, watching them dog it for 3 quarters and then SUDDENLY, as if a wizard from Kansas flies in and says "start playing defense now". 

Nothing infuriates you more? Really? Seriously? I don't think this would even register a minor blip on most people's "infuriation meter".

[NersEllenson]

Nothing infuriates you more? Really? Seriously? I don't think this would even register a minor blip on most people's "infuriation meter".

Good point, quite frankly, I would have to think harsh criticism of Tom Crean and high praise for Buzz Williams, infuriates CBB more than anything.  Or perhaps MU's recruitment of JUCO's under Buzz?  But NBA players dogging it for 3 quarters when said poster chose to spend money on a product he already dislikes??  Seems kind of masochistic to to me.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The NBA is better basketball than college. That is a fact. Some might like college better (attitude, $$, alma mater..etc) but to say college is a better game than the NBA isn't true no matter how you slice it. Also, to say that college and the NBA are different games is absurd.

Your opinion, the ratings say something different.  Some people like it when the players try THE WHOLE GAME.  Some people like the fact there are kids out there busting their ass and not getting paid to be lazy @#$ks for 3/4 of the game.  NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE, is saying the NCAA players are better or that they are more skilled or anything of the kind.  But yes, a lot of people prefer one game to the other.

They aren't different?  That's laughable, of course they are.   

Tell me, team goes down by 1 point with 3 seconds to go and has a timeout.  In college, the team now has 3 seconds to go 94 feet while in the NBA they get to advance the ball to the front court.  That is a MAJOR difference THAT DECIDES GAMES and makes the game different.

Tell me, team is down 1 point with 15 seconds left and makes a great defensive play by forcing a jump ball...in the NBA there is an actual jump ball where the team is rewarded for a CHANCE to get that jump ball...in college...possession arrow.  Tell me that isn't a MAJOR difference that can decide a game and makes the game different.

Tell me, 1 minute left in the game, your best player has 4 fouls and is called for his 5th in the college game...bye bye.  Done for the game.  In the Pros, he gets to continue out there to play.  Tell me that isn't a MAJOR difference that can decide a game's outcome.

Tell me, your team is up by 1 point late in the game but the other team has 7 team fouls.  They purposely foul one of your guys that now has to go to the line for a 1 and 1.  In the NBA, where ALL THESE GREAT PLAYERS ARE, do they have that same pressure?  Nope...they get two shots when they are in the penalty (remember the old NBA days where they had 3 to make 2....what an embarassment that was...3 shots from a pro to make 2...what the hell, are we at a church carnival and the 8 year old is shooting and needs an extra shot?).  Tell me that isn't a MAJOR difference that OFTEN decides the final outcome of the game.

And on and on and on.

Sure, the game uses a round ball and 94 feet of court and 10 foot rims.  After that, the differences are many and as a result, the games are different.  From 7 game playoff series to 1 game eliminations, from the 3 point line distance, the size of the key, zone defenses, 10 second line, 24 second vs 35 second shot clock, fouls for teams and players, periods vs halves, 40 minutes vs 48 minutes, advancing the ball to the front court, etc, etc. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

And I read Juiced, so now I don't watch MLB.

Seriously.  Also, the measurements argument is not a legitimate argument.  You realize every MLB ballpark has different measurements, right?  Also, football games and tennis matches are played on different surfaces, and yet people all recognize a baseball game as a baseball game and a tennis match as a tennis match and a football game as a football game.  Aluminum bats, etc.

If Lenny had said college baseball vs pro baseball, he would have a point.  He didn't...he compared minor league baseball to major league baseball...they are the SAME GAME.  College baseball and pro baseball are not the same game.    The measurements argument is absolutely a legitimate argument.  The only RULES of MLB on measurements are the bases and mound.  The fence distances or the configurations of them (height, symmetry, etc) are not uniform and never have been.  So a MLB game at Fenway is still comparable to a MLB game at Dodger stadium. The rules are also EXACTLY THE SAME. A college basketball game is not the same as a NBA game from the dimensions on the court to the rules, etc.  Apples and oranges.

Also, you realize that players from college basketball who are successful go on to play in the NBA, right?  I don't know of one college basketball player who went on to play pro hockey (I'm sure you'll name someone, if there is one).  If college basketball and pro basketball were that different and hockey and basketball were that similar it seems there would be a greater crossover.

Of course....why would anyone say differently?  The primary "skill" is still to put the ball in the basket.  But using that logic you just used, you would say Arena Football is the same as the NFL...after all, they're out there playing "football", scoring touchdowns, catching passes, blocking, etc.  Are they the same?  Really?

The hockey anecdote just shows to go you how much more intelligent bball coaches are than hockey coaches.  This anonymous coach really had to watch basketball to figure out that getting in a player's way stops him from getting where he wants to go?  Anyway, it was a great story, and I think Buzz said he watches a lot of hockey too to get ideas.  Sorry for bringing up such a stupid point.

Your opinion. I'd argue hockey is a much more difficult game to play and coach than basketball on so many levels.  I don't even find it close, quite frankly.  To suggest bball coaches are "more intelligent" than hockey coaches...wow, what a stretch.  Do you have any IQ tests to back this up or some kind of generally accepted scientific data that backups this claim of yours?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos...the players aren't stupid.  The season is 82 games long, over 100 if they are successful in the playoffs.  If they went all out every minute of every game, they'd be dead.  And you see that on both ends of the floor.  But look at an NBA game from the 70s or 80s and the one thing you would notice is how much better the players are now on both ends of the floor. 

Maybe the best solution would be to play less games.  The best NBA season I recall was the lockout shortened one of a few years ago that was only 50 games long. 

But watch an NBA playoff game and that's when you realize how incredible the game is.  In constrast, I think the NCAA tournament has been sucking for awhile.  Outside of the frenzy of the first and second round, there is a lot of bad basketball....especially this year's final four which was pretty much terrible.

Sultan, where have I said that the NBA playoffs aren't solid?  I haven't...of course they are.  I'd also argue that regular season 4th quarter games are great.  My argument is they don't play very hard the first 3 quarters, at least not nearly at the same level.  Why do I live D. Wade?  Because that guy brings it all 4 quarters.  That's a guy earning his money and giving the fans what they want.

I don't disagree with you that they are "pacing" themselves, which is what you are stating.  Then why can't most people here just admit that?  That's what I've been saying, they lolligag way too much for my taste and the regular season is largely a joke as a result.  Might as well turn on the game in the last 6 minutes of the 4th quarter because the first 3 quarters don't mean squat.

Have you guys ever wondered why the NBA's reputation as a league where refs influence games, that David Stern is pulling strings, exists?  There's a reason you know. 

Personally, for the NBA fans that are all engrossed with it, enjoy it...watching the ankle breaking in Chicago this year trying to get on that bandwagon has been fun (almost as good as watching Blackhawk fans come out of NOWHERE the last two years after a decade in seclusion).  It's fine, enjoy it.  Let me know who wins, and I pray it's not Kobe and dickwads here in L.A. 

[Lennys Tap]

Your opinion, the ratings say something different.  Some people like it when the players try THE WHOLE GAME.  Some people like the fact there are kids out there busting their ass and not getting paid to be lazy @#$ks for 3/4 of the game.  NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE, is saying the NCAA players are better or that they are more skilled or anything of the kind.  But yes, a lot of people prefer one game to the other.

They aren't different?  That's laughable, of course they are.   

Tell me, team goes down by 1 point with 3 seconds to go and has a timeout.  In college, the team now has 3 seconds to go 94 feet while in the NBA they get to advance the ball to the front court.  That is a MAJOR difference THAT DECIDES GAMES and makes the game different.

Tell me, team is down 1 point with 15 seconds left and makes a great defensive play by forcing a jump ball...in the NBA there is an actual jump ball where the team is rewarded for a CHANCE to get that jump ball...in college...possession arrow.  Tell me that isn't a MAJOR difference that can decide a game and makes the game different.

Tell me, 1 minute left in the game, your best player has 4 fouls and is called for his 5th in the college game...bye bye.  Done for the game.  In the Pros, he gets to continue out there to play.  Tell me that isn't a MAJOR difference that can decide a game's outcome.

Tell me, your team is up by 1 point late in the game but the other team has 7 team fouls.  They purposely foul one of your guys that now has to go to the line for a 1 and 1.  In the NBA, where ALL THESE GREAT PLAYERS ARE, do they have that same pressure?  Nope...they get two shots when they are in the penalty (remember the old NBA days where they had 3 to make 2....what an embarassment that was...3 shots from a pro to make 2...what the hell, are we at a church carnival and the 8 year old is shooting and needs an extra shot?).  Tell me that isn't a MAJOR difference that OFTEN decides the final outcome of the game.

And on and on and on.

Sure, the game uses a round ball and 94 feet of court and 10 foot rims.  After that, the differences are many and as a result, the games are different.  From 7 game playoff series to 1 game eliminations, from the 3 point line distance, the size of the key, zone defenses, 10 second line, 24 second vs 35 second shot clock, fouls for teams and players, periods vs halves, 40 minutes vs 48 minutes, advancing the ball to the front court, etc, etc. 

College football also has minor rules differences from the pro game. Nitpicking instead of admitting that the games are still essentially the same is silly.

[martyconlonontherun]

They guard players in the NBA?

I understand why people wouldn't like the NBA, but that is an ignorant comment. The defense is so much better in the NBA and its not even close. There's a reason college stars can't score in the NBA. It's also amazing the talent from a shooting perspective. Watch Dan Gadzurich shoot threes before a game. He's one of the worse big men in the game and he nails 3 after 3. College teams may "play harder" but that's partly due to the length of the season and just more emphasis on the playoffs. People also complain about NBA officials, but look at the NCAA tourney. Would you rather have incompetent refs or refs that give star treatment? I would say its a wash.
3 myths to NBA basketball.
/rant

[Marquette84]

Chicos...  The fact that you prefer college basketball is fine.  However, what set this entire thread off was the outdated statement that they don't play defense in the NBA.  The defense in the NBA is relentless.  Sure, there are times during the long regular season that it falters in the first half of some games.  But your initial statement was simply false.

Chicos...the players aren't stupid.  The season is 82 games long, over 100 if they are successful in the playoffs.  If they went all out every minute of every game, they'd be dead. 

You seem to be both disputing and validating Chico's point. If players can't go all-out every minute of every game, then by definition they aren't relentless.

I think you're completely accurate and make a fair point that players can't go all out for every minute of every game over the course of an 82 to 100+ game season.

But the result of those players pacing themselves is that is that many games wind up being exactly as Chicos described--"attrocious basketball for the first 3+ periods and then they start to play basketball at the end of the game and in the playoffs."

[Lighthouse 84]

I thought this was a thread on J F'n B possibly going to the Bobcats?  Need to retitle the thread

[Marquette84]

I thought this was a thread on J F'n B possibly going to the Bobcats?  Need to retitle the thread

The irony is that you added yet another topic not previously discussed to the thread.