Starting Lineup for next year

[tower912]

Rod Grosse did it all the time......which I guess proves your point.   

[Goose]

Tower---I like the mix on the team but actually wish we stuck with lineup a tad longer. I have no problem of mixing things up during the season to make things happen. However, sometimes I think Buzz overdoes it, either starting lineups or in the game. His first year he seldom switched lineups and now it is revolving door.

[tower912]

His first and second years here he had no bench and therefore no options.      What was he going to do, put Hazel or Mbao in?     That is why JFB developed so fast; he was the only viable option off of the bench taller than 6'1 (if you believe Cubi was that tall).     Now, he has options.    Would not be surprised to see even more defensive pressure next year.   

[Goose]

Tower--I have been waiting for more defensive pressure and we see it next year. I understand why big three played a ton and more changes this year. Although it sometimes seems to me he is trying to give minutes to just give minutes. If we are playing full court D like I would I understand 1000 subs a game. Our style of play this year could have allowed some more continuity with lineups within the game.

Lets full court press the whole game and play uptempo next year.

[tower912]

I agree.    Almost worthy of another thread, but....don't confuse necessity with virtue.    Buzz didn't keep a tight rotation his first two years because he wanted to, he had a tight rotation because he had no choice.   He has said repeatedly that we wants 13 d1 players, with possibly one of them being redshirted, and he wants a 9.5 man rotation.    He more or less achieved that rotation this year.    Assuming everyone stays and develops and matures, the best way for him to find minutes for everybody, and the best way to compensate for a team that doesn't have an alpha dog but has lots of athleticism, is to press and get 11 guys double digit minutes a la Missouri (whom, after they beat us, he said he wanted his teams to be like) or even Belmont.   Just look at Buzz's words.   (Assuming he stays)   They will tell you what he wants in a team.    Winning basketball, 13 d1 players, 9.5 man rotation, a team like Missouri's ( the one that beat us)     The answers are right there. 

[brewcity77]

I guess that extra possession thing you are referring too would apply in football too, because you do see teams elect to kick off.

No, it doesn't apply to football, too. The first second half possession does NOT go to the team that lost the opening tip. It goes to the team that had the possession arrow in their favor at the end of the first half. In fact, if you win the tip, have the last possession of the first half, control the possession arrow going into the half, and have the last possession of the game, you can have two more possessions than your opponent. Again, considering the number of one-two possession games we play, it clearly is of vital importance to put ourselves in position to have as many possessions as we possibly can.

And while Otule did occasionally get out-jumped, I would guess that he won at least half the tips, and pretty much always won the tip against shorter opponents. Otule may not be the most polished player and may have deficiencies, but he does very well on the tip. It's laughable to think that DG, despite his clearly superior offensive game, would be better or even close to equal with Otule at winning the tip.

I love DG. I think he will be a very valuable 4-year player for us, and it's not unthinkable that if he can improve his conditioning and defense that he could get enough minutes to possibly be a 15/8 type of guy by his senior year, which would likely mean he'd be at worst second team all-Big East. But unless he can improve his vertical jump massively, he shouldn't be the guy who starts the game strictly based off his jumping ability unless you have a power forward who is in the 6'10" jump-out-of-the-gym mold. Barring injuries, I doubt Gardner will ever take an opening tip while he is at Marquette. He has a great skill set, but winning jump balls is not in his toolbox.

[rocky_warrior]

He has a great skill set, but winning jumping balls is not in his toolbox.

A little fun, but I hope DG proves me wrong before he's done at MU 

[martyconlonontherun]

I just got excited thinking about 2 years from now when Otule is a senior and Gardner is a junior.

Assuming even just modest improvement from now until then, we are gonna have some really, really good big men. Its been a while since Marquette has had this kind of size down low.

You could also look at the roster as a whole in that a sweet 16 team, we will be returning a lot of guys who were big contributors from this sweet 16 team to our final four 2012-2013 team: Junior, Blue, Gardner, Otule.

[willie warrior]

No, it doesn't apply to football, too. The first second half possession does NOT go to the team that lost the opening tip. It goes to the team that had the possession arrow in their favor at the end of the first half. In fact, if you win the tip, have the last possession of the first half, control the possession arrow going into the half, and have the last possession of the game, you can have two more possessions than your opponent. Again, considering the number of one-two possession games we play, it clearly is of vital importance to put ourselves in position to have as many possessions as we possibly can.

And while Otule did occasionally get out-jumped, I would guess that he won at least half the tips, and pretty much always won the tip against shorter opponents. Otule may not be the most polished player and may have deficiencies, but he does very well on the tip. It's laughable to think that DG, despite his clearly superior offensive game, would be better or even close to equal with Otule at winning the tip.

I love DG. I think he will be a very valuable 4-year player for us, and it's not unthinkable that if he can improve his conditioning and defense that he could get enough minutes to possibly be a 15/8 type of guy by his senior year, which would likely mean he'd be at worst second team all-Big East. But unless he can improve his vertical jump massively, he shouldn't be the guy who starts the game strictly based off his jumping ability unless you have a power forward who is in the 6'10" jump-out-of-the-gym mold. Barring injuries, I doubt Gardner will ever take an opening tip while he is at Marquette. He has a great skill set, but winning jump balls is not in his toolbox.

What's really laughable is you defending starting a guy for what you say who may win the  opening tip half the time. I never advocated starting Gardner for the opening tip--you advocated Otule for that reason. No sense debating this anymore--IMO Gardner should be playing the majority of the minutes. And if as you say and others say that Williams should start over Crowder to "save on fouls for Crowder", then start somebody else over Otule for the same reason--Otule is the most foul prone/or close to it on the team. Save his fouls for the same reason.
Lots of holes in the reasons/logic given for some of Buzz's decisions.

[brewcity77]

What's really laughable is you defending starting a guy for what you say who may win the  opening tip half the time. I never advocated starting Gardner for the opening tip--you advocated Otule for that reason. No sense debating this anymore--IMO Gardner should be playing the majority of the minutes. And if as you say and others say that Williams should start over Crowder to "save on fouls for Crowder", then start somebody else over Otule for the same reason--Otule is the most foul prone/or close to it on the team. Save his fouls for the same reason.
Lots of holes in the reasons/logic given for some of Buzz's decisions.

It's more laughable that you don't seem to know the rules of basketball, such as how possession works. And if not Otule, who would you start to win the opening tip? Who do you think can outjump Otule? Otule is a defensive stud and can chip in on offense, especially early. As a starter, you have made no rational explanation of why anyone should start over Otule. This has absolutely jack-all to do with who gets the highest number of minutes. It's about starting. And Otule should start. Unless there's someone else who can win the tip, winning the possession battle is worth risking one early foul for.

[hairy worthen]

Lets full court press the whole game and play uptempo next year.
[/quote]

Up tempo yes. Full court press the whole game is not a good idea. Big East caliber teams would have no problem shredding a full court press. You are taking a gamble when you full court press. It is a high risk defense that you wouldn't want to play the entire game. There is a reason why teams do not full court press the whole game. I do agree we could do it more often, but not a good base defense.

[MerrittsMustache]

What's really laughable is you defending starting a guy for what you say who may win the  opening tip half the time. I never advocated starting Gardner for the opening tip--you advocated Otule for that reason. No sense debating this anymore--IMO Gardner should be playing the majority of the minutes. And if as you say and others say that Williams should start over Crowder to "save on fouls for Crowder", then start somebody else over Otule for the same reason--Otule is the most foul prone/or close to it on the team. Save his fouls for the same reason.
Lots of holes in the reasons/logic given for some of Buzz's decisions.

Buzz, himself, made the comment about why EWill starts and Crowder comes off the bench. Posters are just repeating it.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

What's really laughable is you defending starting a guy for what you say who may win the  opening tip half the time. I never advocated starting Gardner for the opening tip--you advocated Otule for that reason. No sense debating this anymore--IMO Gardner should be playing the majority of the minutes. And if as you say and others say that Williams should start over Crowder to "save on fouls for Crowder", then start somebody else over Otule for the same reason--Otule is the most foul prone/or close to it on the team. Save his fouls for the same reason.
Lots of holes in the reasons/logic given for some of Buzz's decisions.

Otule will start because he's better at basketball.

You don't need to worry about any of the other rationale.

[Stuckin1977]

It's more laughable that you don't seem to know the rules of basketball, such as how possession works. And if not Otule, who would you start to win the opening tip? Who do you think can outjump Otule? Otule is a defensive stud and can chip in on offense, especially early. As a starter, you have made no rational explanation of why anyone should start over Otule. This has absolutely jack-all to do with who gets the highest number of minutes. It's about starting. And Otule should start. Unless there's someone else who can win the tip, winning the possession battle is worth risking one early foul for.

From a pure "who do you want to get the opening tip-off" perspective, not only can Otule jump higher than Gardner, but Otule is the tallest player on the team.

[GGGG]

Up tempo yes. Full court press the whole game is not a good idea. Big East caliber teams would have no problem shredding a full court press. You are taking a gamble when you full court press. It is a high risk defense that you wouldn't want to play the entire game. There is a reason why teams do not full court press the whole game. I do agree we could do it more often, but not a good base defense.

+1

Rick Pitino used to full-court press most of the game while at Providence.  There is a reason he doesn't do it anymore...only as a change up.  It is an inherently weak defense.

[willie warrior]

It's more laughable that you don't seem to know the rules of basketball, such as how possession works. And if not Otule, who would you start to win the opening tip? Who do you think can outjump Otule? Otule is a defensive stud and can chip in on offense, especially early. As a starter, you have made no rational explanation of why anyone should start over Otule. This has absolutely jack-all to do with who gets the highest number of minutes. It's about starting. And Otule should start. Unless there's someone else who can win the tip, winning the possession battle is worth risking one early foul for.

HMMMM..... That is a good one, Otule is a defensive stud. A real good one. You sure can bank on that.

[GGGG]

Yeah, I am not sure "stud" is the word I would use.  I mean, he is nice.  He can block shots and position himself well, but he is overmatched often.

[brewcity77]

HMMMM..... That is a good one, Otule is a defensive stud. A real good one. You sure can bank on that.

I'll take that as the "I don't have any further legitimate argument so I'll try to insult our players" approach to posting.

[bamamarquettefan]

I believe Buzz finally makes a push to start with defense next year, and to do that you have to have Otule's ability to deny at the rim, and Vander's ability to pick opponents clean.  While your line-up is a good one, I actually believe our best line-up is:

1 - Junior Cadougan
2 - Darius Johnson-Odom
3 - Vander Blue (Jamil Wilson vs. tall opponents)
4 - Jae Crowder
5 - Chris Otule

I know we are going small again, but with Otule backing them up, I believe small is our best option.

But I seriously think all 13 guys get a start next year.  Who could believe we've gone from making the 3 Amigos and Lazar play almost all 40 minutes each to this as our backup options!

1. Derrick Wilson or David Singleton
2 - Todd Mayo
3 - Jamil Wilson (when not starting) or Jamail Jones
4 - Erik Williams or Juan Anderson (4-stars do take off Junior year, so you could be right on EWill)
5 - Davante Gardner (please a lot more minutes than last year!)

[dgies9156]

Vander will be fine.  This summer he will be in Milwaukee and not part of the National Team.  Being part of that team was indeed a great thing, but it's more important for him right now is to be in the AL everyday and start the process of becoming a leader on the team.

Vander HAS to succeed. Here we are with a five-star recruit (or high four star). If he is a flop in college, some of that flop will be attributed to Buzz, no matter how little Buzz had to do with it. That will deter future highly regarded recruits from coming here.

I want Vander to succeed because if he does, we have another Butch Lee or Glenn Rivers on our hands.

He seems like he's a great kid and if his attitude is there, we'll be fine and so will he. Go to it Vander -- we want YOUR team's banner in the Bradley Center too!

[DoggyDaddy]

We all appreciate Van as a stopper which makes me think what would be the ideal five for the man-to-man pressure defense?  Van is certainly here.

With a successful zone defense employed at times this year, who makes the all zone team? I guess you start with the height and wingspan so CO and maybe E Will are in, right? Good place for Jae to save on fouls too. Is this the only time DG and CT get court time together?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I believe Buzz finally makes a push to start with defense next year, and to do that you have to have Otule's ability to deny at the rim, and Vander's ability to pick opponents clean.  While your line-up is a good one, I actually believe our best line-up is:

1 - Junior Cadougan
2 - Darius Johnson-Odom
3 - Vander Blue (Jamil Wilson vs. tall opponents)
4 - Jae Crowder
5 - Chris Otule

I know we are going small again, but with Otule backing them up, I believe small is our best option.

But I seriously think all 13 guys get a start next year.  Who could believe we've gone from making the 3 Amigos and Lazar play almost all 40 minutes each to this as our backup options!

1. Derrick Wilson or David Singleton
2 - Todd Mayo
3 - Jamil Wilson (when not starting) or Jamail Jones
4 - Erik Williams or Juan Anderson (4-stars do take off Junior year, so you could be right on EWill)
5 - Davante Gardner (please a lot more minutes than last year!)

1. I don't think starting Junior, DJO and Vander is really that "small". It's technically a 3G line-up, but both DJO and Vander have good size and could guard a college SF.

2. I just don't see Mayo getting any run next year. Hopefully he turns out to be great, but I just keep thinking of Jamail, who a lot of people were pumped about last season. He only saw garbage minutes as a frosh. I'd image Mayo will get something similar.

3. I love the depth on this team, and I think you could see 5 guys average double figures. DJO, Jae, Junior, Vander, J. Wilson.

4. In the fall, I think we might see Vander working out some at the PG position. Just a hunch.  

5. This team will go as far as Blue, Junior and EWill improve. If those guys improve a lot, this team could compete for a Big East title. If they improve a little bit, the team is probably looking at 9-9 again.

[bamamarquettefan]

Agreed, and believe that the key to next year is Vander improving AND Vander showing he can play point.  If he does that, then there are so many more options with him playing shooting guard, but then when Junior sits just moving Vander over to the point which gives Buzz a million more options for line-ups.  If we are covering up for a freshman growing pains at PG in the Big East, then the minutes Junior is on the bench will be dangerous stretches.

[flash]

Whatever the starting line up may be next year, I just hope that Buzz finds a CONSISTENT rotation at the begining of the year and sticks with it.  I hated how he flip floped the starting lineup so much this season, I think it really hurt the confidence of some of the players at the begining of the year, especially DJO.  I think it really helps when the players know their roll as a bench player or a starter because it makes it easier for them to get into a rythm on the floor.  I would like to see Buzz establish a rotation durring the first 5 games then stick with it.  Also I hate how Erik Williams starts, and only plays 3 minutes in the entire game, Why start him them? Next year, I like the lineup of Cadougan, DJO, Crowder, Wilson, and Otule. Off the bench i see Blue, Gardner, Jones, and Ewill.  I think the freshman are going to be riding the pine the entire year. 

[GGGG]

Outside of the first handful of games, we pretty much had a consistent starting rotation throughout much of the year.  DB, DJO, JFB and CO...with Jae starting for a bit, but then Buzz deciding it was better for him to come off the bench.

The lack of a consistent starting rotation at the beginning of the year didn't lose us a single game, and I think gives Buzz some good ideas about how players react to certain situations.