Starting Lineup for next year

[Dish]

You mention something that get's overlooked here when talking about Vander.  The national team.  He played on the team all summer and then the season started.  Not much time to acclimate and develop.  A high school season is from late Nov. to early March.  That may, in part, explain the wall he hit late in the season.

I agree that the offseason in Milwaukee will be a big help to Vander. 

Looking forward to his proving some of you, who have given up on him, wrong.

See, this is what I disagree with, I think playing on the national team should have helped his progress as a player. The summer is when guys develop their individual games, and practicing against guys the caliber of Kyrie Irving and the international competition should have helped his game moreso. Time like that should be invaluable in his development, both physically and mentally.

[MUMac]

See, this is what I disagree with, I think playing on the national team should have helped his progress as a player. The summer is when guys develop their individual games, and practicing against guys the caliber of Kyrie Irving and the international competition should have helped his game moreso. Time like that should be invaluable in his development, both physically and mentally.

First, one of the concerns of JUCO's is that they are not on campus soon enough to acclimate and develop.  Same with HS seniors who are late getting through the Clearing House.  Blue's experience, from a time line, would be similar to those concerns.  Secondly, Freshman always hit a wall during the season due to the rigors of the season versus what they had been accustomed to.  Add to that, that Blue played on an ultra competitive stage during the summer, and yes, I can see it taking a toll as the season wears down.

Don't know that I agree that he was developing his individual skills as much during the practices and games.  More likely developing the team skills for the competition.  I doubt he was out shooting x number of 3 point shots, free throws and the like.

Playing against the competition was good for him, I do not disagree.  It does, however, have some drawbacks and with Vander, we may have witnessed those.

[MerrittsMustache]

See, this is what I disagree with, I think playing on the national team should have helped his progress as a player. The summer is when guys develop their individual games, and practicing against guys the caliber of Kyrie Irving and the international competition should have helped his game moreso. Time like that should be invaluable in his development, both physically and mentally.

Vander's role on that team was as a defensive specialist. He deferred to guys like Irving, Rivers, etc on the offensive end which could be why his offensive game wasn't as developed as many believed it would be.

Also, the offseason is when guys hit the weights and work on fundamentals. VB likely didn't get as much time doing these types of individual workouts due to his practice committments.

Actually, if you look at the players from that roster who just finished their freshman seasons, none of them put up overly impressive numbers (aside from Irving who played just 11 games).


Interesting note: Team USA was led by Jeff Capel with assistant coach Paul Hewitt both of whom are currently looking for jobs.

[brewcity77]

1 - Junior Cadougan: Clearly the man at the point, his development makes him a no-brainer
2 - DJO: Senior and will be expected to shoulder the scoring load, another no-brainer
3 - Jamil Wilson: Toss-up position, will start because of his length provide his talent matches reports
4 - Jae Crowder: Emotional leader should be wise enough to take back the starting job from E-will as a senior
5 - Chris Otule: Even if Gardner gets more minutes, Otule starts for the tip if nothing else

Off the bench, I think Blue will be the first name. He would start if not for DJO but will get 22-25 mpg at the 1, 2, and in 3-guard sets. I think Gardner, Williams, and Jones all get 10+ mpg as well.

[Dish]

First, one of the concerns of JUCO's is that they are not on campus soon enough to acclimate and develop.  Same with HS seniors who are late getting through the Clearing House.  Blue's experience, from a time line, would be similar to those concerns.  Secondly, Freshman always hit a wall during the season due to the rigors of the season versus what they had been accustomed to.  Add to that, that Blue played on an ultra competitive stage during the summer, and yes, I can see it taking a toll as the season wears down.

Don't know that I agree that he was developing his individual skills as much during the practices and games.  More likely developing the team skills for the competition.  I doubt he was out shooting x number of 3 point shots, free throws and the like.

Playing against the competition was good for him, I do not disagree.  It does, however, have some drawbacks and with Vander, we may have witnessed those.

I agree to an extent on your points and know what you're trying to say. To my point, with the level of competition he was exposed to, would ideally have helped him figure out what parts of his game needed development against a higher level of competition than what he would have gotten on campus. I recall reading Luke Winn's assessment of Vander on the national team, and Winn was pretty impressed and considered him a top 3 player on that team IIRC.

[PBRme]

Vander showed he could get to the basket all year against all levels of competition.  If he figures out how to finish and regains his jumper, he'll be a showstopper.

[groove]

Yeah, let's just see who is still on the team after this summer

[willie warrior]

Not getting all these posts that think EWill starts, but Gardner does not. What has EWill shown--IMO not much. If you compare his upside to Gardner's, I believe that Gardner's is greater. And Williams starting over Crowder is ludicrous. Crowder is a better scorer, rebounder, defender and all around player. If Williams starts over Crowder for some silly reason, then certainly Gardner should start over Otule. I guess we will need to wait until next year to sort it out.

[MerrittsMustache]

Not getting all these posts that think EWill starts, but Gardner does not. What has EWill shown--IMO not much. If you compare his upside to Gardner's, I believe that Gardner's is greater. And Williams starting over Crowder is ludicrous. Crowder is a better scorer, rebounder, defender and all around player. If Williams starts over Crowder for some silly reason, then certainly Gardner should start over Otule. I guess we will need to wait until next year to sort it out.

Erik Williams started over Crowder down the stretch for this team, including all 3 NCAA Tournament games. Crowder was obviously a better player and he played significantly more minutes, but he excelled coming off the bench and that's something Buzz may stick with next season.

[GGGG]

Not getting all these posts that think EWill starts, but Gardner does not. What has EWill shown--IMO not much. If you compare his upside to Gardner's, I believe that Gardner's is greater. And Williams starting over Crowder is ludicrous. Crowder is a better scorer, rebounder, defender and all around player. If Williams starts over Crowder for some silly reason, then certainly Gardner should start over Otule. I guess we will need to wait until next year to sort it out.

Buzz felt that Crowder coming off the bench was better for him than if he started.  Same thing happened with DJO last year.  Don't be so obsessed with whose name is announced before the game begins.

[Stuckin1977]

Vander showed he could get to the basket all year against all levels of competition.  If he figures out how to finish and regains his jumper, he'll be a showstopper.

-1.  He definitely didn't get to the basket all year against all levels of competition.  His offense severely tapered off once BE play began.

I think it's already been noted on this thread, but the only reason Williams started over Crowder was so that Jae didn't draw any early ticky-tac fouls.  You'll notice that EWill was never in th game for more than 5 minutes before Crowder took over for him.  I will say though that those minutes have been valuable for EWill.

[brewcity77]

Not getting all these posts that think EWill starts, but Gardner does not. What has EWill shown--IMO not much. If you compare his upside to Gardner's, I believe that Gardner's is greater. And Williams starting over Crowder is ludicrous. Crowder is a better scorer, rebounder, defender and all around player. If Williams starts over Crowder for some silly reason, then certainly Gardner should start over Otule. I guess we will need to wait until next year to sort it out.

That's because you aren't reading the question. The question is who starts, not who gets more minutes. Williams may start over Crowder to avoid early fouls, which would allow Jae to maximize his minutes despite not getting the start. By the same token, even if Gardner can handle 25 mpg next year, Otule will start because he has a better chance of winning the tip. Gardner's lesser height and limited vertical jump means Otule will always be in there ahead of him for the opening tip-off, and thus he'll get the start, regardless of how many minutes Gardner may get the rest of the way.

[wojosdojo]

Buzz felt that Crowder coming off the bench was better for him than if he started.  Same thing happened with DJO last year.  Don't be so obsessed with whose name is announced before the game begins.

Jae will need to be better than he was this year. He had a great season, but if we want to compete for a top 5 next year Jae needs to be a serious team leader behind DJO. Come BE play next year, Crowder starts without question. I hope EWill can contribute more than he did this year coming off the bench.

[GGGG]

I agree with you completely about Jae.  I thought it looked like he hit a wall where he mentally and physically he faded away for stretches late in the year.

[willie warrior]

That's because you aren't reading the question. The question is who starts, not who gets more minutes. Williams may start over Crowder to avoid early fouls, which would allow Jae to maximize his minutes despite not getting the start. By the same token, even if Gardner can handle 25 mpg next year, Otule will start because he has a better chance of winning the tip. Gardner's lesser height and limited vertical jump means Otule will always be in there ahead of him for the opening tip-off, and thus he'll get the start, regardless of how many minutes Gardner may get the rest of the way.

Pretty stupid to start a guy so we can get the tip, considering you have alternate possessions. By that logic we should then start our 5 longest guys to reach the tipped ball better. See how asinine that is? I am not buying the less fouls theory either for Crowder. If that is the case, take him out after 4 minutes and sub somebody else to conserve on Crowders fouls. And since Otule is the most foul prone on the team, then somebody else should start for Otule to conserve on his fouls.

Both of those rationale are bogus.

[GGGG]

If that is the case, take him out after 4 minutes and sub somebody else to conserve on Crowders fouls.

What's the difference?  Seriously, you think its more important that he starts and plays the first four instead of subbing in and playing the next four?

Why are you so obsessed with who starts??

[groove]

What's the difference?  Seriously, you think its more important that he starts and plays the first four instead of subbing in and playing the next four?

Why are you so obsessed with who starts??

+1

[Coleman]

I am not buying the less fouls theory either for Crowder. If that is the case, take him out after 4 minutes and sub somebody else to conserve on Crowders fouls.

That's exactly what Buzz has done this year, and he has stated the strategy multiple times in press conferences. EWill's role has been to start and play the first four minutes so Jae can go hard and stay out of foul trouble.

I don't care whether you "buy" it or not, that's what Buzz is doing. Whether that strategy stays in place for next year, we'll see.

[Lennys Tap]

Pretty stupid to start a guy so we can get the tip, considering you have alternate possessions.

If you get the opening tip you are assured of getting at least the same amount of possessions and have a 50% chance of having one more. In the type of games we generally play an extra possession can be crucial.

[HouWarrior]

Its ironic this thread, has remained true to just the starters question, given the ease many jump elsewhere-nice, but...
I am also interested in most minutes, points, assists, rebounds, finishing lineups, go to players in the clutch, SOGs etc., any thoughts on these?

[Stuckin1977]

Its ironic this thread, has remained true to just the starters question, given the ease many jump elsewhere-nice, but...
I am also interested in most minutes, points, assists, rebounds, finishing lineups, go to players in the clutch, SOGs etc., any thoughts on these?

I think those stats are already being discussed in not so many words.  That's already been figured out by starting guys like DJO and Cadougan.  But the topic of the thread was who our starting 5 will be, and that has sort of drifted since our starting 5 might not necessarily be our best 5, since Williams has started in place of Crowder for the last 7-8 games.  Some guys are in the mindset of "our starting 5 is our best 5" and others are arguing that it isn't necessarily true.  I'm with the latter.

During these last few games EWill started but we certainly got more minutes, points, boards out of Jae so you have to take "starting 5" with a grain of salt when it comes to Buzz.

[MerrittsMustache]

I think those stats are already being discussed in not so many words.  That's already been figured out by starting guys like DJO and Cadougan.  But the topic of the thread was who our starting 5 will be, and that has sort of drifted since our starting 5 might not necessarily be our best 5, since Williams has started in place of Crowder for the last 7-8 games.  Some guys are in the mindset of "our starting 5 is our best 5" and others are arguing that it isn't necessarily true.  I'm with the latter.

During these last few games EWill started but we certainly got more minutes, points, boards out of Jae so you have to take "starting 5" with a grain of salt when it comes to Buzz.

This thread could probably be titled something more along the lines of "Crunch time line-up next season." In which case, I'd guess...

Cadougan
DJO
Blue
Wilson
Crowder

Occasionally going with Otule as opposed to Wilson or Blue.

[brewcity77]

Pretty stupid to start a guy so we can get the tip, considering you have alternate possessions. By that logic we should then start our 5 longest guys to reach the tipped ball better. See how asinine that is?

If you can't understand the value of an extra possession for a team that plays in the number of single-possession games we do, I'm not sure how I can help you. Let's just say I'm not the one being asinine. And as only one person jumps for the tip, it's clear you're being ridiculous.

[tower912]

I like the direction this thread has taken.   There is every possibility that we are one step closer to Buzz's ideal of 13 high D-1 players, 3PGs, 3 Bigs, 7 interchangeables.      So the question isn't necessarily who is going to start, because I predict that, like this year,  there will be a fair amount of variation in who starts.    I think everybody on the team other than JJ and DG started at some point.   And I might be wrong about DG.   So the question really becomes, who will be the starters most of the time by the time conference season rolls around and who is going to be on the floor during the last 3 minutes of tight games?

[willie warrior]

If you can't understand the value of an extra possession for a team that plays in the number of single-possession games we do, I'm not sure how I can help you. Let's just say I'm not the one being asinine. And as only one person jumps for the tip, it's clear you're being ridiculous.

I guess that extra possession thing you are referring too would apply in football too, because you do see teams elect to kick off. yes, only one person jumps for the tip-but he tips it to somebody doesn't he--so with your logic, since you have Otule to tip it, then it follows that you should ensure that you will get the tip by having your longest reaching guys to receiev it.

By the way, how many tips that Otule tipped did we get? I have no idea, but I know I saw several that he was outjumped on.
I go back to what I said, starting a guy just to get the tip is not real smart.