Indiana Playing Better

[4everwarriors]

The banner part got me real loose.

[HoopsMalone]

The difference is that some of you think that should have started from day one, and that's where you have been wrong on this from day one.

No one was expecting Calipari style recruiting, but people were expecting more talent than this on the floor.  I don't know what is so controversial about saying that.  It's not get Josh Selby/John Wall or else Crean is a bust.  But he has to be doing better recruiting wise.

He's not exactly turning the players he has into a good team either.  This is still no walk in the park.   They, like we are experiencing at MU, don't have players who have played together very long.  They really are not dealing with that adversity very well over there.  I don't know what is so controversial about saying that.

If I were an IU fan, I would be excited about the recruiting classes too.  I would not want Crean fired because I would not want to lose those recruits.  But these first three years would concern me.  There are few glimmers of hope on the court, and his Calvin Sampson excuse can only last for so long.  Next year, we will have to wait for Zeller to develop and then get experience playing with the 2012 players.

[Lennys Tap]

IU has actually met expectations to those people that matter, that's the entirely the point.  They haven't met YOUR EXPECTATIONS.  They haven't met LENNY's expectations.  They haven't met Mr. Hayward's\Canadian Dimes expectations.  They haven't met NERS expectations.

The funny thing is, McRobbie and Glass and the other leaders at IU, you know, the guys that actually HIRE and FIRE people based on....drum roll...EXPECTATIONS...are keeping him around for the long haul.  Why is that?  Well certainly if they weren't meeting expectations they would fire him...wouldn't they?  They just cleaned house in football, again.  Expectations weren't being met in football.  That's what these guys get paid to do.  They look at the expectations before the season, then they factor in things like injuries and such, and they use a human calculus and put all that into the evaluation.

So why is it that basketball, their FLAGSHIP sport and one that does not make as much money as football, is allowed to keep going as is and football, where they are an afterthought is turned over?  Odd.  Or is it?  

In year 3 of the Tom Crean era Indiana is 3-11 in conference and appear headed for a last place 3-15 finish. To say that this meets anyone's expectations is ridiculous. NOBODY thought they were signing up for this. The fact that his bosses are ok with TC bribing the coach of the top AAU program in the state speaks to their desperation. The good news for TC and IU is that the bribes are apparently paying dividends.

[NersEllenson]

Tell me ners, what was the roster on opening day under Crean at IU...how many returning players.  Thanks for playing

Much like Buzz experienced, Crean experienced at IU - some of the players that were there when he took over chose to transfer - Jordan Crawford, Armin Bassett, to name a couple.  Clearly Buzz had it good his first year - after that, though MU didn't have too much in the cupboard.  The reality is Buzz's recruiting has been much better than Tom Crean's, and thus the significant differntial in performance this year.  Tom Crean has/had the benefit of 9 years of coaching experience to point to, 1 Final Four, D-Wade, and the IU legacy to sell - yet still, 3 years in is scuffling along in the Big 10.  Buzz now has 100% of his players at MU, and has us positioned in the middle of the pack of the highly competitve Big East - and with MU playing more games against Top 25 programs than any other program this year.

It would be nice to see you champion and defend the Marquette program/current coach as much and as hard as you do IU and Crean.  Why can you not champion and defend Buzz and MU with the same vigor?  (That's really my only beef with you.)

[muchalktalk]

Coach Crean's situation was far different than Coach Williams'.  First, he started from scratch.  Before he got there, their best player went pro, some players left due to the coaching change, and some players didn't feel they needed to go to class.  Outside of the recruiting restrictions he had, I'm sure some of the top recruits stayed away because they didn't know what the final NCAA sactions would be.

As far as I can see, Crean has decided, rightly or wrongly, to focus mainly on high school players, outside of a couple of JUCO players.  He obviously has taken his lumps, as he has been playing a lot of freshman and sophomores.  Next year, he only loses one player.  His "Top 10" recruiting class will be juniors.  He will actually have a couple of seniors.  Next year, while I think his team will still have some holes, I would expect them to take a big step. 

After the Big 3 graduated, Coach Williams still had some quality seniors left (one was a first-round draft pick).  He has successfully gone the JUCO route more than Crean.  This has kept us competitive, but we still are not a Top-25 team.  Next year, we lose 3 seniors.  I am not sure if we will be better or worse next year because of it.  We will still have some holes also.

I am curious to see which program becomes a Top-25 program first.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

It would be nice to see you champion and defend the Marquette program/current coach as much and as hard as you do IU and Crean.  Why can you not champion and defend Buzz and MU with the same vigor?  (That's really my only beef with you.)

I will always champion Marquette basketball, Ners.  I ripped on Crean often but you and others just totally ignore this fact.  I'm going to rip on Buzz at times, too.  No different.  

To this day I do not understand how Marquette could be where they were....a top 15 program, a GREAT team coming back, a great recruiting class coming in and MU on a roll and we panic and go down the path we did.  We took this gamble and it may workout fantastic.  I sure as hell hope it does, but when I see losses racking up when they should be wins and realize we have such an inexperienced coach, it's frustrating.  We didn't have to be in this situation.  In the long run, it may be pure genius.  I can only hope.  MU had it going big time and the fact we're scrambling for our dear lives last year and this year is frustrating.  

For ONCE I wanted my alma mater to act like they were big boys and play as big boys.  Go after a big time coach, a Stallings or someone that actually could have kept some of that class together and wouldn't need on the job training like we have going on now.  But, in typical MU fashion, we didn't.  Again, hopefully it works out.  We have a tendency in the last few major hires at MU to not interview very many people (if any at all...see AD hiring) and just go on gut instinct apparently.  Well, that's a risky strategy. Lord knows sometimes the most well laid out plans go sour, so nothing is perfect.  That being said, just once it would be nice to see MU act like a major player in these things but we never do.  It's incredible to me.  When we're in the dumps, it makes sense to go with an assistant coach that can hopefully get you back...there is little downside.  When you're on top of the mountain, hiring someone with 1 year head coaching experience ( a losing record at that ) is a risk.  It was a risk then and it's still a risk now. I hope it works out, I really do but it doesn't change my mind from asking why in the hell we say we're one thing but act like something else.  

Until he proves he can do it with HIS team and do it consistently, he's going to get scrutinized.  I took Crean to task his first 3 years.  I ripped him after the second NIT year appearance.  Again, you guys act as if this never happened...you'll have to explain why.

[wildbill sb]

I will always champion Marquette basketball, Ners.  I ripped on Crean often but you and others just totally ignore this fact.  I'm going to rip on Buzz at times, too.  No different.  

To this day I do not understand how Marquette could be where they were....a top 15 program, a GREAT team coming back, a great recruiting class coming in and MU on a roll and we panic and go down the path we did.  We took this gamble and it may workout fantastic.  I sure as hell hope it does, but when I see losses racking up when they should be wins and realize we have such an inexperienced coach, it's frustrating.  We didn't have to be in this situation.  In the long run, it may be pure genius.  I can only hope.  MU had it going big time and the fact we're scrambling for our dear lives last year and this year is frustrating.  

For ONCE I wanted my alma mater to act like they were big boys and play as big boys.  Go after a big time coach, a Stallings or someone that actually could have kept some of that class together and wouldn't need on the job training like we have going on now.  But, in typical MU fashion, we didn't.  Again, hopefully it works out.  We have a tendency in the last few major hires at MU to not interview very many people (if any at all...see AD hiring) and just go on gut instinct apparently.  Well, that's a risky strategy. Lord knows sometimes the most well laid out plans go sour, so nothing is perfect.  That being said, just once it would be nice to see MU act like a major player in these things but we never do.  It's incredible to me.  When we're in the dumps, it makes sense to go with an assistant coach that can hopefully get you back...there is little downside.  When you're on top of the mountain, hiring someone with 1 year head coaching experience ( a losing record at that ) is a risk.  It was a risk then and it's still a risk now. I hope it works out, I really do but it doesn't change my mind from asking why in the hell we say we're one thing but act like something else.  

Until he proves he can do it with HIS team and do it consistently, he's going to get scrutinized.  I took Crean to task his first 3 years.  I ripped him after the second NIT year appearance.  Again, you guys act as if this never happened...you'll have to explain why.

+1000 Succinct, sincere, superlative.

[NersEllenson]

I will always champion Marquette basketball, Ners.  I ripped on Crean often but you and others just totally ignore this fact.  I'm going to rip on Buzz at times, too.  No different.  

To this day I do not understand how Marquette could be where they were....a top 15 program, a GREAT team coming back, a great recruiting class coming in and MU on a roll and we panic and go down the path we did.  We took this gamble and it may workout fantastic.  I sure as hell hope it does, but when I see losses racking up when they should be wins and realize we have such an inexperienced coach, it's frustrating.  We didn't have to be in this situation.  In the long run, it may be pure genius.  I can only hope.  MU had it going big time and the fact we're scrambling for our dear lives last year and this year is frustrating.  

For ONCE I wanted my alma mater to act like they were big boys and play as big boys.  Go after a big time coach, a Stallings or someone that actually could have kept some of that class together and wouldn't need on the job training like we have going on now.  But, in typical MU fashion, we didn't.  Again, hopefully it works out.  We have a tendency in the last few major hires at MU to not interview very many people (if any at all...see AD hiring) and just go on gut instinct apparently.  Well, that's a risky strategy. Lord knows sometimes the most well laid out plans go sour, so nothing is perfect.  That being said, just once it would be nice to see MU act like a major player in these things but we never do.  It's incredible to me.  When we're in the dumps, it makes sense to go with an assistant coach that can hopefully get you back...there is little downside.  When you're on top of the mountain, hiring someone with 1 year head coaching experience ( a losing record at that ) is a risk.  It was a risk then and it's still a risk now. I hope it works out, I really do but it doesn't change my mind from asking why in the hell we say we're one thing but act like something else.  

Until he proves he can do it with HIS team and do it consistently, he's going to get scrutinized.  I took Crean to task his first 3 years.  I ripped him after the second NIT year appearance.  Again, you guys act as if this never happened...you'll have to explain why.

Completely respect this post Chicos.  I wasn't reading here back in the day when you ripped Crean - so can't discuss that.  It just seems you give Crean a ton of slack at IU, and don't give Buzz the same here at MU.  Maybe Stallings would have come to MU if offered - and I do agree that the program was at its highest point since Al was here when TC left.  To me that's on the MU Athletic Department - but so far it seems we should be giving Buzz the benefit of the doubt..as the results thus far have been pretty darn good.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I give him slack at IU because I think what he's had to do has never been done before.  Take a program literally from scratch and on top of that, have a NCAA cloud hanging over your head.  I've yet to ever see anyone provide an example of where this situation occurred anywhere else and happened quickly.  I remember Tulane going through it with the Hot Rod Williams scandal, and they still haven't recovered two decades later.

As I've said, I have had enough conversations with people VERY well connected to IU to know this is a long haul rebuild.  No question the pressure begins to build because now the real players start coming in, but when you have poor players to work with, when you have NCAA sanctions over your head and the major injuries...well it's going to take time.  They are meeting the expectations of IU and that's all that matters...but the pressure starts next year and really gets going the year after.

Peace bro.

[JWags85]

In an effort to lighten the mood, this is pretty funny.

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/tom-crean-matt-painter.jpg

The pictures are probably the best part...

[rocky_warrior]

For ONCE I wanted my alma mater to act like they were big boys and play as big boys.  Go after a big time coach, a Stallings or someone that actually could have kept some of that class together and wouldn't need on the job training like we have going on now.  But, in typical MU fashion, we didn't.

Ah yes, herein lies the problem.  Chicos could have done it better.  Stupid MU. 

[rocky_warrior]

The funny thing is, McRobbie and Glass and the other leaders at IU, you know, the guys that actually HIRE and FIRE people based on....drum roll...EXPECTATIONS...are keeping him around for the long haul.  

Ok...lets get back to what you've previously stated as expectations...

I disagree as an alum.  He has a LLLLLOOOOONNNNNGGGG leash at IU.  Very long.  They expect single digit wins this year, they expect probably 10 or 11 wins next year, .500 in year three.

He has a long leash.....and a long contract.

You've stayed consistent with the long leash. 

Year 1: Chicos: single digit wins - Actual: 6 check
Year 2: Chicos: 10 or 11 wins - Actual: 10 check (low end)
Year 3: Chicos: .500 - Actual: .387 (12-19) or .419 (13-18)  demerit

So, I've got to assume...you're starting to come around to the fact that when he under-performs next year (after year 4, like the FB coach), they'll can him and bring in a big name coach to take his recruits to the next level?

There is so much money at IU to pay off coaches it's incredible.  They just did it with football.  Mark Cuban can write one check and it's taken care of in a heartbeat.

Ah, and you're even backing away from your argument that their hands are tied because they don't want to pay 3 BB coaches at the same time.  You've said forever that there was too much $$$ on the line to can crean.  But now "There is so much money at IU to pay off coaches it's incredible".  Welcome back chicos.  The recovery has taken a while, and I think you'll look good in Purdue gear next year.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Can't argue with Chicos manifesto on the hire, but weren't the reports that the person most responsible for this hiring was Buzz Williams predecessor? He got in Doc Rivers/Dick Strong's ears and Cottingham is nothing but a yes man.

I like the hire, by the way. Didn't at the time. Do now.

Now let's go get a godd@mned snack.

[TallTitan34]

In an effort to lighten the mood, this is pretty funny.

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/tom-crean-matt-painter.jpg

The pictures are probably the best part...

INCREDIBLE!!!!!

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ah yes, herein lies the problem.  Chicos could have done it better.  Stupid MU. 

Funny how most pundits in the nation said the same thing I did.....stupid college basketball experts

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ok...lets get back to what you've previously stated as expectations...

You've stayed consistent with the long leash. 

Year 1: Chicos: single digit wins - Actual: 6 check
Year 2: Chicos: 10 or 11 wins - Actual: 10 check (low end)
Year 3: Chicos: .500 - Actual: .387 (12-19) or .419 (13-18)  demerit

You're right, three starters go down to injuries and having their 7 footer suspended didn't impact year 3 at all.  CHECK   

Please, just shoot me...never mind, I'll do it myself.  When we get this type of solid analysis from moderators here, that's the only thing left to do.  Still have the racist posts living up here on Scoop, Rocky...well of course you do. 



We are putting the bet loser on You Tube still, correct?  For all to see? 

[Lennys Tap]

Ah, and you're even backing away from your argument that their hands are tied because they don't want to pay 3 BB coaches at the same time.  You've said forever that there was too much $$$ on the line to can crean.  But now "There is so much money at IU to pay off coaches it's incredible". 

Let's see. Chicos says Crean can't/won't be fired because of the economics of the situation. I say that Crean can't/won't be fired because of the economics of the situation. Chicos does a 180 and says I'm full of it. Par for the course.

[Lennys Tap]

Funny how most pundits in the nation said the same thing I did.....stupid college basketball experts

So you were just regurgetating the thoughts of the basketball geniuses who bring us the always accurate preseason polls? Maybe you should be more careful about whose paper you're copying from.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Let's see. Chicos says Crean can't/won't be fired because of the economics of the situation. I say that Crean can't/won't be fired because of the economics of the situation. Chicos does a 180 and says I'm full of it. Par for the course.

As usual, Lenny and Rocky have a reading problem.  Yes, I said IU didn't have the money.  You know, that whole state gov't, economy in the toilet kind of thing.  But what did I say the other day...let's see, I have it here somewhere...where did I put it...oh yeah, I said there is so much money at IU to pay him off (as in donors) and actually gave you an example in Mark Cuban...is Mark Cuban part of the state gov't of Indiana?  Is Mark Cuban or Bill Cook or any other well heeled alumni part of the athletic department and answer to a state budget?  Ahh, but that would require you guys to read.  Carry on.  How's the options trading today Lenny?  Students doing well picking up all the ins and outs?  Pun intended.

Maybe Bill Cook will buy him out....no, Cook is a major donor and backs him.  No, won't be Cook.  Let's see, maybe Steve Alford will start a Facebook coup...yeah, that's it.

I'm getting on a plane in a few, I look forward to some more twisting of words from you guys when I deplane.  Should be fun.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So you were just regurgetating the thoughts of the basketball geniuses who bring us the always accurate preseason polls? Maybe you should be more careful about whose paper you're copying from.

Actually, no...these guys are too smart to participate in those stupid polls.  Plus, I came out with stuff on CS and here before they did, they must have been copying me.  LOL   

[TallTitan34]

You're right, three starters go down to injuries and having their 7 footer suspended didn't impact year 3 at all.  CHECK   

You could say the injury to Dom in Buzz's first year prevented Marquette from reaching the Final Four:  the crown jewel of the Crean era.

[Pakuni]

Yahoo! column today on this very subject

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AqNtEbtb5U6FGmpOrU8D743evbYF?slug=jn-bigten022211

[ChicosBailBonds]

You could say the injury to Dom in Buzz's first year prevented Marquette from reaching the Final Four:  the crown jewel of the Crean era.

You could...devastating injury.  Of course, you also could insert 300 other DI coaches for that team that could have taken MU that far, Buzz was along for the ride not to screw it up.

[TallTitan34]

From Pakuni's link:

Indiana wasn't pegged to finish at the top of the Big Ten standings, but no one thought the Hoosiers would sink to the bottom, either. That's exactly where Crean's squad is, though, heading into the last two weeks of the regular season.

It's time for less talk and more substance. Instead of telling folks to believe in his vision, Crean needs to win. Otherwise it will only be natural when people begin to lose patience.

[Lennys Tap]

You could...devastating injury.  Of course, you also could insert 300 other DI coaches for that team that could have taken MU that far, Buzz was along for the ride not to screw it up.

That awesome team that anyone in the country could have coached to lofty heights was the same one you picked to go 9-9 in the Big East. Hypocrisy at its finest.