Third Season Verdict

[bilsu]

What you need to understand is that we are the same as Georgetown and Notre Dame two years ago. We are inexperienced and will be taken advantage of. Georgetown and Notre Dame are very good teams now. Players need time to develope. The failure of posters on this board to recognize that these players need to go through a maturation process leads to disappointment and discontent.

[Blackhat]

not when you're seeing crap defense with no help.

That's systemic.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Did I just read correctly that ZFFB wants Buzz to recruit more white players?

 

[Hards Alumni]

From my point of view, Buzz has brought in some very good talent in his tenure so far.  Some of the "top" talen, as happens so many times, are playing at a lower level than expected.  Is it coaching? Talent? A combination? Who knows?  Junior is playing below expectations, Jones we don;t know, but slow on defense, etc etc.  

His third year evaluation? We have Otule playing better than everm with lots of need for inmprovement on the baords and defense - but he blocked a bunch of shots early int he season and I think will adjust to the better teams.  We have been in every game this year, against some VERY good teams where the naysayers would say we didn't even belong in the game.

How Buzz finishes off the recruiting for next year will be key.  The talent he has on the team, and the potential talent on the team, is deeper than we have had.  That alone is tough to keep kids happy these days because they all think they are going to the NBA asap.  Buzz is not defense focused?  I think he is - our team/players have not executed well.  Some may be strategy, like double teaming and trapping and leaving a 3 point shooter open; some may be talent not yet developed.  We have a YOUNG team.  Young.  And we do not have a "natural" leader on the team.  Given all this, we lost 4 games to very good teams, and we were in every one of them.  Had DJO shot better, had this or that happened, hit a few FTs, etc. On and on.

We can only get better this year - we have played marginally so far and we have been in the games agiasnt top teams.  So the upside is huge.

My evaluation so far.?  Chill out, hang tough.  Let's see how the Big East goes over the next few weeks.  Yes, we DO need to win some of these close games.  And I think we will.

Thanks for this, totally agree.

[NCMUFan]

I didn't know Buzz was on trial.  If he was I would say he was aquited.

[mu-rara]

I hope none of you negative nabobs have responsibility for developing or mentoring young talent, or developing long term strategy for your employers. 

If you have the same perspective in business as you do for the Warriors (you can see about three inches into the future) God help you. 

There is time for a "we need to win now mentality".  MU is in a development phase.  I expect to make the NCAA tournament, but I expect that based on how we play after Feb. 1.

[ChicosBailBonds]

No restrictions on jucos and you know this for a FACT. None of his targets denied admittance. Thank God we can finally put to rest the myths perpetrated by Chicos and his "inside sources" about handcuffs, etc.

Here's what I know FOR A FACT.  Before he coached one single game his contract was extended multiple years and multiple millions...why?  Because they were not going to be allowed to go for the quick fix and some of the players they wanted to go after (JUCOS, etc) were off limits.  That's what I know FOR A FACT.

From IU sources, IU athletic department sources, people in the industry (i.e. President of Fox Sports who just happens to be an IU grad and just happened to be a colleague), from people associated with his agent, etc,

Lenny, I realize you had tremendous wood and I'm sorry to deflate it for you with reality, but that's the deal.  They got Dumes, a former DI player that was at Juco for one year AFTER playing DI.  That's it initially.  

There's A REASON WHY HE GOT EXTRA YEARS AND EXTRA MONEY before coaching a single game or practice.  Why don't you ask yourself WHY?  Was the school in just a giving mood?  Or did the school put conditions on how the rebuilding was going to go and once it was determined the quick fix (JUCO, etc) was essentially off limits early on, they added years and money to the contract.  Hmmm.

Now back to your little blue pills.....PS  Otule was born with two eyes, one was not developed fully.  Gottfried was wrong. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I hope none of you negative nabobs have responsibility for developing or mentoring young talent, or developing long term strategy for your employers. 

If you have the same perspective in business as you do for the Warriors (you can see about three inches into the future) God help you. 

There is time for a "we need to win now mentality".  MU is in a development phase.  I expect to make the NCAA tournament, but I expect that based on how we play after Feb. 1.

Unfortunately in the real world many businesses are based on what you do each quarter.  It makes life hard, chaotic and downright unpleasant at times, but that's the reality that many people live with.  Other businesses not so much, but if you're at a Fortune 500 company that's reality.  I'd equate MU with a similar type basketball program (meaning FORTUNE 500esque).  That means people will be critical at times.  It comes with the territory.

[Lennys Tap]

I didn't know Buzz was on trial.  If he was I would say he was aquited.

Buzz is on trial here 24/7, 365 days a year. Every transfer, recruiting miss, time out, substitution, etc. is scrutinized, investigated and usually results in an indictment. Those who generally vote to acquit are demeaned as fanboys. That's life on the internet.

[avid1010]

Unfortunately in the real world many businesses are based on what you do each quarter.  It makes life hard, chaotic and downright unpleasant at times, but that's the reality that many people live with.  Other businesses not so much, but if you're at a Fortune 500 company that's reality.  I'd equate MU with a similar type basketball program (meaning FORTUNE 500esque).  That means people will be critical at times.  It comes with the territory.

BS.  The F500 analogy is ridiculous...I'm just going to leave that one alone.

On to you then claiming Buzz should expect to deal with critical people....absolutely, but if important people within the program are critical, they better have a good plan in place prior to going too far in that direction. 

[Pakuni]

Unfortunately in the real world many businesses are based on what you do each quarter.  It makes life hard, chaotic and downright unpleasant at times, but that's the reality that many people live with.  Other businesses not so much, but if you're at a Fortune 500 company that's reality.  I'd equate MU with a similar type basketball program (meaning FORTUNE 500esque).  That means people will be critical at times.  It comes with the territory.

Good thing coaches should be evaluated only after five years, and not on this quarterly nonsense.
Right?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Good thing coaches should be evaluated only after five years, and not on this quarterly nonsense.
Right?

You shouldn't suck a coach's johnson for at least 5 years, something a lot of people here have yet to figure out...thus all the chapped lips.

[ChicosBailBonds]

BS.  The F500 analogy is ridiculous...I'm just going to leave that one alone.

On to you then claiming Buzz should expect to deal with critical people....absolutely, but if important people within the program are critical, they better have a good plan in place prior to going too far in that direction. 

No one is suggesting firing the guy, good grief. 

I'm sorry you disagree with the analogy.  I'm open to a better one.  Big time sports with big time money, people are going to be public about a lot of things.  That includes irrational praise and irrational criticism.    As stated, I'm open to a better analogy. 

[dsfire]

What you need to understand is that we are the same as Georgetown and Notre Dame two years ago. We are inexperienced and will be taken advantage of. Georgetown and Notre Dame are very good teams now. Players need time to develope. The failure of posters on this board to recognize that these players need to go through a maturation process leads to disappointment and discontent.

Not sure the Notre Dame analogy holds up - for one thing, I don't think the 08-09 season is what you're talking about, since they started 2 juniors and 3 seniors that year.  Also, Nash is really the only contributor this year that saw any playing time at all prior to last season, since Hansborough and Martin were transfers, and Abromaitis and Scott were redshirts/end-of-bench players.

On the other hand, Georgetown is a bit more on point since nearly all of their current lineup played some minutes two years ago.  Of course, that still leaves the question of whether our players will develop to replace the talent we lose like they've done with Monroe and Summers leaving.  Four the six players that have played more than 1/3 of our minutes so far will graduate over the next couple seasons.  Still, an experienced Junior, Blue, Wilson/Jones, EWill, Gardner/Otule lineup is intriguing.

[Golden Avalanche]

Buzz is on trial here 24/7, 365 days a year. Every transfer, recruiting miss, time out, substitution, etc. is scrutinized, investigated and usually results in an indictment. Those who generally vote to acquit are demeaned as fanboys. That's life on the internet.

To be fair, this went on with the last guy as well.

Every transfer was further proof he was a dick. Every blown lead further proof he overburdened his players with scouts. Every missed big was further proof he was a crash or burn recruiter. Etc.

The only difference is that the actors of the dialogue have switched sides.

[Pakuni]

You shouldn't suck a coach's johnson for at least 5 years, something a lot of people here have yet to figure out...thus all the chapped lips.

Little blue pills? Tremendous wood? Sucking Johnsons?
Seems someone is a tad bit phallically obsessed today.
What exactly are you trying to tell us, Chico's?

[Marquette84]

I am quoting Coach K's record at Duke and Calhoun's at UCONN to clarify from your post in order to match the Buzz comparison (high majors, 2nd gig like Buzz).  I could not go to year 3 at Providence for Pitino as he moved on.  So, I am not stretching at all but providing an antithesis to "The Third Season Verdict" that was proposed.  Some folks here apparently would have fired some of the winningest coaches of all time after Year 3--along with Buzz and Crean in their 2nd head coaching jobs.  

Oh, I know exactly why you chose the coaches you did.  

I'm calling it a stretch because BU, Army or Northeastern are not comparable to MU.

Based on your logic, you would have to argue that we simply didn't give Bob Dukiet enough time because his 20-9 record in his 3rd season at St. Peters was significantly better than that of Coach K, Jim Calhoun or Rick Pitino.

btw, I would say that all the assistant coaches you mentioned walked into a pretty sweet spot in terms of what they followed and were long-time assistants in many cases (or longer than nine months).  And, yes, Dixon was under the gun in Year 3 by the Pitt fan base.  

I would say Buzz walked into a pretty sweet spot at Marquette.  Big East affiliation.  One of the highest basketball budgets in the country.  NBA arena with the 11th largest capacity in D1.  A roster with two future NBA players plus four of the top 10 all-time leading scorers.  Strong heritage to sell.  

And Buzz actually had more overall assistant coaching experience than any of the five I mentioned (in addition to the head coaching experience that none of the others had).

Buzz: 17 years as an assistant + 1 year as a head coach.
Izzo:  15 years as an assistant + 0 years as a head coach.
Dixon:  14 years + 0
Miller:  12 years + 0
Few:  10 years + 0
Boeheim: 7 years +0

I suppose you'll try to argue that all of Boeheim's 7 years were at Syracuse.  Well so what?   Pete Gaudet was an assistant for 12 years at Duke under Coach K.  That didn't make him an outstanding head coach coach.  

Finally, I guess Dixon was as much under the gun in the middle of his third year at Pitt as any coach who leads a team to a 15-0 start and a top 10 ranking can be.  

[NCMUFan]

Buzz is on trial here 24/7, 365 days a year. Every transfer, recruiting miss, time out, substitution, etc. is scrutinized, investigated and usually results in an indictment. Those who generally vote to acquit are demeaned as fanboys. That's life on the internet.

I guess I am a fan boy.  Sometimes good things take time.  I don't need to make the guy walk on egg shells.

[Dr. Blackheart]

.  

I'm calling it a stretch because BU, Army or Northeastern are not comparable to MU.

Based on your logic, you would have to argue that we simply didn't give Bob Dukiet enough time because his 20-9 record in his 3rd season at St. Peters was significantly better than that of Coach K, Jim Calhoun or Rick Pitino.

I am confused--you say it is unfair and then I clarify that the numbers I quoted matched your challenge and now you disagree?  I quoted Coach K #'s at Duke, Calhoun at UCONN, and Pitino at BU as comparable to Buzz.  Isn't that a fairer comparison per your challenge (perhaps ex, Pitino because of the three year?). Fact is, you would have fired 3 HOF coaches (which I assume you do since you are challenging my defense of Buzz vs. the OP).  

And yes, Dixon was under fire as he was left with a loaded roster and the fans felt his team finishing 10-8 after that 15-0 start was a choke job after an early exit in his second year.  That he was left with talent but couldn't do anything with it.

Bob Dukiet?  lol...he didn't pass the one year test as Plan D. But, let's play your game:  Who is this after three years?  Should he have been given an extension?

1994–95  21–12 7–5 T-3rd NIT Finals
1995–96  23–8 10–4 2nd (Blue) NCAA Second Round
1996–97  22–9 9–5 2nd (Blue) NCAA First Round

[avid1010]

No one is suggesting firing the guy, good grief.  

I'm sorry you disagree with the analogy.  I'm open to a better one.  Big time sports with big time money, people are going to be public about a lot of things.  That includes irrational praise and irrational criticism.    As stated, I'm open to a better analogy.  

I just think Buzz is accountable to a lot more than quarterly numbers (wins/loses).  I see the comparison to the public sectore more fitting than to the private...very political in many ways.  He's accountable to being the face of MU, he's accountable to every person that pays tuitions, buys season tickets, in public school cases - taxpayers, alum, and most importantly to the kids/parents that trust he will see to it that their kids get better as bball players, students and in life.  I don't think Buzz would be happy doing what Huggins does and that's because he says he holds himself accountable for more than numbers/wins.  You and I differ on Bobby Knight...while I agree he was a great coach, and his players were solid people/graduated, I thought his actions were an embarassment to IU.  He could handle the pressures of numbers, he couldn't handle the pressures of being accountable for the other things that led to his fall.

[avid1010]

Bob Dukiet?  lol...he didn't pass the one year test as Plan D. But, let's play your game:  Who is this after three years?  Should he have been given an extension?

1994–95  21–12 7–5 T-3rd NIT Finals
1995–96  23–8 10–4 2nd (Blue) NCAA Second Round
1996–97  22–9 9–5 2nd (Blue) NCAA First Round

Only if his contract had a provision that he would always buckle up!

[Lennys Tap]

To be fair, this went on with the last guy as well.

Every transfer was further proof he was a dick. Every blown lead further proof he overburdened his players with scouts. Every missed big was further proof he was a crash or burn recruiter. Etc.

The only difference is that the actors of the dialogue have switched sides.

Speaking only for myself, I was a bit of a Crean fan for the first five years or so. Even late in his tenure when it had become clear he was a douche I didn't second guess his every move. I took deep breaths and tried to overlook his shortcomings even as I rooted for the team.

I get every bit as frustrated during games as the most negative of the posters around here, but I just don't understand fans that aren't capable of adding any context or perspective to those frustrations after the final whistle. Criticism is one thing, but some of this over the top ultra-negatism says more about these posters than it does about our players or coaches.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Little blue pills? Tremendous wood? Sucking Johnsons?
Seems someone is a tad bit phallically obsessed today.
What exactly are you trying to tell us, Chico's?

I must have Richard Nixon on the brain

[ChicosBailBonds]

Speaking only for myself, I was a bit of a Crean fan for the first five years or so. Even late in his tenure when it had become clear he was a douche I didn't second guess his every move. I took deep breaths and tried to overlook his shortcomings even as I rooted for the team.

I get every bit as frustrated during games as the most negative of the posters around here, but I just don't understand fans that aren't capable of adding any context or perspective to those frustrations after the final whistle. Criticism is one thing, but some of this over the top ultra-negatism says more about these posters than it does about our players or coaches.

Especially when in your mind you categorize "the vast majority" (your words) of comments by some posters as negative which is comical and categorically false.  I'd love to know what isn't negative the way you paint so many posts as having negative intent. 

[Lennys Tap]

Here's what I know FOR A FACT.  Before he coached one single game his contract was extended multiple years and multiple millions...why?  Because they were not going to be allowed to go for the quick fix and some of the players they wanted to go after (JUCOS, etc) were off limits.  That's what I know FOR A FACT.

From IU sources, IU athletic department sources, people in the industry (i.e. President of Fox Sports who just happens to be an IU grad and just happened to be a colleague), from people associated with his agent, etc,

Lenny, I realize you had tremendous wood and I'm sorry to deflate it for you with reality, but that's the deal.  They got Dumes, a former DI player that was at Juco for one year AFTER playing DI.  That's it initially.  

There's A REASON WHY HE GOT EXTRA YEARS AND EXTRA MONEY before coaching a single game or practice.  Why don't you ask yourself WHY?  Was the school in just a giving mood?  Or did the school put conditions on how the rebuilding was going to go and once it was determined the quick fix (JUCO, etc) was essentially off limits early on, they added years and money to the contract.  Hmmm.
 

Name drop all you want, the fact is that Crean was recruiting jucos and signing them right from the start. This jibes with indee's inside sources' "facts" but not with yours.

As for Crean getting extra money and years color me unsurprised. He was and I guess remains the undisputed champ of using phony leverage to extort years and money out of institutions run by people thought to smart enough to know better.

As for my tremendous wood, I guess I should feel complimented, but your fixation with it and with "sucking johnsons" just creeps me out.