I'm a Bulls Fan but....

[Aughnanure]

For anyone who knows:  How much less money can Wade/LBJ/Bosh take by NBA rules? I know they cant take only $10 mil a year or something like that, there is some restriction (justifiably). Just wondering what the limit is, can they only shed a few million?

[MUSF]

Who are you talking about? 
We aren't allowed to think that Rose is good or that it will be hard to build a team with no money?  There are non-bulls fans who agree with that.

I keep reading posts like this but they never address who is crying.  I think some posters from wisconsin think bulls fans are outraged and are coming on the board and saying that they are without basing it on anything.

1.  I'm not from Wisconsin

2.  I'm basing it on comments from Bulls fans saying they are now anti-Wade because he is a huge jerk and they hope to see him and the other losers implode on each other.  How about Bulls fan that seems disgusted by Wade wearing (gasp!) a pair of IU shorts.  Others say that they can't cheer for Wade and the Heat now.  

I'm sure these fans would have been jumping up and down for the big jerk and his loser friends if he joined the Bulls.  (Just a hunch)

3.  All of the blame for not ending up with the Bulls is placed on the three players.  What about the organization that didn't do enough to seal the deal?  It seems that the Bulls did everything right but those selfish pricks chose to play for a worse team because all they care about is money and partying in Miami.  Yeah, I'm sure it's that simple.


4.  I realize that the jilted Bulls fans I am referring to make up the minority.  That's why I said jilted Bulls fans make my head hurt, not Bulls fans in general.  RawdogDX, I would classify you as a rational Bulls fan and I apologize if I offended you.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If I had to bet Id still bet Lakers win it all next year against the Heat, but after that its going to be a long run.

Why dont we all wait until they get to roster before we make complete judgments on it?

+1

[HoopsMalone]

For anyone who knows:  How much less money can Wade/LBJ/Bosh take by NBA rules? I know they cant take only $10 mil a year or something like that, there is some restriction (justifiably). Just wondering what the limit is, can they only shed a few million?

I think you can always take the minimum.  The minimum is based on how many years you are in the league, so Wes' minimum this year was something around $400,000ish but it gets up to around $1 million after a few years.  

I think Shaq was at around $20 million and can sign for the minimum.

Jermaine O'Neal was around $20 million and signed the mid-level for about $5 million.  

[Aughnanure]

I think you can always take the minimum.  The minimum is based on how many years you are in the league, so Wes' minimum this year was something around $400,000ish but it gets up to around $1 million after a few years.  

I think Shaq was at around $20 million and can sign for the minimum.

Jermaine O'Neal was around $20 million and signed the mid-level for about $5 million.  

But for all on one team? Huh, I thought there was some restrictions...like the Player's Association wouldn't let them if it gets too low.

[HoopsMalone]

But for all on one team? Huh, I thought there was some restrictions...like the Player's Association wouldn't let them if it gets too low.

I think that teams have a minimum that they must spend total on player salaries.  Then there is a minimum that a player can take based on tenure in the league.

[DegenerateDish]

For Cavs fans out there...

What did you think of Dan Gilbert's reaction?

For those who don't know, Gilbert (among other things) owns FatHead. Late last night, he priced the LBJ Cavs FatHead down to $17.41. That number is the same year Benedict Arnold turned traitor for those wondering.

[RawdogDX]

No, you don't need to apologize.  I wasn't offended, you weren't the only person who posted something like that and I just don't see it.  

I'm looking for a post where someone says that they don't like wade.  There is one where a guy says he can't see himself cheering for the heat.  I don't think that is the same as saying he is a jerk. I must just be missing something you are seeing.  The IU shorts is in no way related to the bulls, plenty of MU fans were outraged.  How about the MU fans that were 'disappointed' in him for getting divorced? Or because he had a painting of himself in his house?  Or were all those bulls fans?

It may be the bulls fault for not being able to close the deal or the trinity could have decided this last summer and no other team had a chance.  We'll never really know.

These three guys took less cash to play with each other and try to win titles.  That alone would have been a story that would have gotten everyone behind them, but they had camera crews following them around and this hour long show which soured what they were doing.  They will be good, they will compete for a title and probably win won soon.  I think that every poster here agrees with that, i just don't see why it's 'lunacy' to pick someone else to win a title in 2011.  And some people have said that.  

[MUSF]

For Cavs fans out there...

What did you think of Dan Gilbert's reaction?

For those who don't know, Gilbert (among other things) owns FatHead. Late last night, he priced the LBJ Cavs FatHead down to $17.41. That number is the same year Benedict Arnold turned traitor for those wondering.

Just like Benedict Arnold, LBJ was a commited warrior/hero before leaving an organization that couldn't seem to get their act together to properly support his efforts.

I'm not saying either was justified.

BTW:  Dan Gilbert is acting like an @$$ clown.  He is only helping prove that Cleveland is not a first class organization.  Elite organizations let this stuff roll off their back then rebuild and win.  They don't run around badmouthing guys like a jilted ex-girlfriend.  I'm sure his behavior will really help attract players.

[Canadian Dimes]

I think all of you people that dont think these three can get it done in Miami are going to look very foolish in time.  Lets just remeber Boston 3-4 years ago when they brought in Peirce, KG, and ray allen.  they were completely surrounded by NBA journeyman and unproven players yet still won an NBA title.  This year while Rondo had improved greatly they were still surrounded by no ones and washed up players, they still got to the finals.  

the difference in Miami is twofold.  1.  LBJ, Bosh, and DWAde are far far far far superior than the 3 in Boston, so far its almost not comparable.  2.  They will have a far greater ability to attract talent that liek them are willing to take major pay cuts to win rings.  DWade on the radio today said his phone is ringing off the hook with people wanting to come to Miami.  

[MUSF]

 

I'm looking for a post where someone says that they don't like wade.  There is one where a guy says he can't see himself cheering for the heat.  I don't think that is the same as saying he is a jerk. I must just be missing something you are seeing.  The IU shorts is in no way related to the bulls, plenty of MU fans were outraged.  How about the MU fans that were 'disappointed' in him for getting divorced? Or because he had a painting of himself in his house?  Or were all those bulls fans?

You will find all of those things in other threads about the free agency saga.  I just posted my frustration in the most recent thread related to this topic.  Sorry for the confusion.

You're right, there are a lot of MU fans that have criticized Wade.  Most of the criticism is ridiculous and some is justified.  My point is that the people bringing it up in these threads would probably be singing his praises if he signed with the Bulls.  That is just my assumption / opinion, but I think it is accurate.

[HoopsMalone]

I don't think people are criticizing Wade.  I think people are questioning annointing this team.

That being said, I give them two titles in five years.

Next year they don't have the pieces.

Years 2-5, they are probably the favorites going into each year.  One year they will get an injury.  One year they will have a fluke thing happen like a Derrick Fisher shot v. the Spurs, a Reggie Miller 8 points in 8 seconds, or a Scottie Pippen migraine.  Then I say they win two of the other years. 

I also base that on the Lakers not going out quietly as Kobe retires, Oklahoma City becoming as good of a team as Miami potentially (Westbrook and Durant could honestly challenge Wade and James), and Orlando always being there.  Another team like Chicago or Portland could break out too.

[ErickJD08]

Korver will be a Bull.  Why?  MONEY!  He doesn't care about a championship.  He doesn't have a shoe deal.  He'll take the money.  

Korver's a done deal.  3 year, 15 mil.  Now, a defensive specialist...

[Brewtown Andy]

Really? Give me a break. Are you really just basing point guard play on assists? You do realize that Rose leads them all in point average and did not have a dependable big man to pass to down low or a sharp shooter to kick it out to, yet he still managed six assists a game. And please tell me you're joking when you say that you'd rather have Harris, Westbrook, Davis, Kidd, or even Rondo over Rose. That's ridiculous. The top four, in no particular order, are Williams, Paul, Rose, and Rondo.

Dude.  Unclench.

[Aughnanure]

Really? Give me a break. Are you really just basing point guard play on assists? You do realize that Rose leads them all in point average and did not have a dependable big man to pass to down low or a sharp shooter to kick it out to, yet he still managed six assists a game. And please tell me you're joking when you say that you'd rather have Harris, Westbrook, Davis, Kidd, or even Rondo over Rose. That's ridiculous. The top four, in no particular order, are Williams, Paul, Rose, and Rondo.

Wrong. Im not as high on Paul as many other are (his team has done nothing even though apparently he is so great)...but it takes more than being a shoot first point guard in his first two years to be even close to being considered in the top 5 of pgs. In no order: Nash (you have NO argument against him), Williams, Paul, Rondo, Parker, Billups are all better right now.  Are you even sure he will be better than Brandon Jennings? Will he be better than Wall? You are a little too high on Rose, especially putting him in front of players that have actually been to the finals multiple times.

I do agree, however, that whoever said they'd rather have Baron Davis or Westbrook over Rose is ridiculous.

[Aughnanure]

I don't think people are criticizing Wade.  I think people are questioning annointing this team.

That being said, I give them two titles in five years.

Next year they don't have the pieces.

Years 2-5, they are probably the favorites going into each year.  One year they will get an injury.  One year they will have a fluke thing happen like a Derrick Fisher shot v. the Spurs, a Reggie Miller 8 points in 8 seconds, or a Scottie Pippen migraine.  Then I say they win two of the other years.  

I also base that on the Lakers not going out quietly as Kobe retires, Oklahoma City becoming as good of a team as Miami potentially (Westbrook and Durant could honestly challenge Wade and James), and Orlando always being there.  Another team like Chicago or Portland could break out too.

I find that statement absurd. I really REALLY like Durant, never understood why Portland screwed up picking Oden over him...he IS one of the top 4 players in the League. But honestly, comparing Westbrook to the second player in that combo is really insulting Wade. Argue that OKC as a team could challenge, Im fine with that...but saying a duo with Westbrook could rival one with Wade and James makes no sense...he isn't even a top 5 pg, maybe not top 8 soon.

[Brewtown Andy]

I do agree, however, that whoever said they'd rather have Baron Davis or Westbrook over Rose is ridiculous.

That would be me, and again, all I was doing was reading the assist leaders list.

[Aughnanure]

That would be me, and again, all I was doing was reading the assist leaders list.

Sorry, I was reading more the response to what you said. Understood.

[HoopsMalone]

OKC is gonna be a force.  Westbrook is 21 and going for 16 pts and 8 assists already.  That is basically what Wade gave back when he was that age.  Wade is more of a scorer so it is not a perfect comparison.   In 3 or 4 years you could see Wade declining and Westbrook getting better.  I don't think he will ever give what Wade gave in that 2006 Finals, but he is really showing something.  He does not need to be a top 5 PG right now or be better than Wade for OKC to really give the Heat trouble.  That team is scary.

[Aughnanure]

OKC is gonna be a force.  Westbrook is 21 and going for 16 pts and 8 assists already.  That is basically what Wade gave back when he was that age.  Wade is more of a scorer so it is not a perfect comparison.   In 3 or 4 years you could see Wade declining and Westbrook getting better.  I don't think he will ever give what Wade gave in that 2006 Finals, but he is really showing something.  He does not need to be a top 5 PG right now or be better than Wade for OKC to really give the Heat trouble.  That team is scary.

Okay, gotcha....you were assuming a significant Wade decline somewhat soon and a solid increase from Westbrook. That makes sense. I just dont necessarily agree when I hear people say he has only 3-4 years left at this level. He's got at least 4 and probably 5 and then more years where he will still be a very productive player (see Boston). In my opinion.

[Pakuni]

Wrong. Im not as high on Paul as many other are (his team has done nothing even though apparently he is so great)...but it takes more than being a shoot first point guard in his first two years to be even close to being considered in the top 5 of pgs. In no order: Nash (you have NO argument against him), Williams, Paul, Rondo, Parker, Billups are all better right now.  Are you even sure he will be better than Brandon Jennings? Will he be better than Wall? You are a little too high on Rose, especially putting him in front of players that have actually been to the finals multiple times.

I do agree, however, that whoever said they'd rather have Baron Davis or Westbrook over Rose is ridiculous.

Wait... what?
Rose is a great player already, and he's only going to improve.
He was the leading scorer among point guards in the NBA, shot about 49 percent from the field (5th among NBA points), had fewer turnovers per game than Rondo, Nash, Williams, Westbrook and Rondo, and played more minutes per game than any but Deron Williams.
As a 21-year-old in his second year. He's only going to get better. Much better.
Will he be better than Brandon Jennings? He's already light years better.
He's a "shoot-first" point guard out of necessity. When you're far and away your team's top scoring option, you shoot first. I'd like to see some of these other guys racking up big assist numbers without a single low-post scorer on their roster.

[HoopsMalone]

Wait... what?
Rose is a great player already, and he's only going to improve.
He was the leading scorer among point guards in the NBA, shot about 49 percent from the field (5th among NBA points), had fewer turnovers per game than Rondo, Nash, Williams, Westbrook and Rondo, and played more minutes per game than any but Deron Williams.
As a 21-year-old in his second year. He's only going to get better. Much better.
Will he be better than Brandon Jennings? He's already light years better.
He's a "shoot-first" point guard out of necessity. When you're far and away your team's top scoring option, you shoot first. I'd like to see some of these other guys racking up big assist numbers without a single low-post scorer on their roster.

[brewcity77]

Wrong. Im not as high on Paul as many other are (his team has done nothing even though apparently he is so great)...but it takes more than being a shoot first point guard in his first two years to be even close to being considered in the top 5 of pgs. In no order: Nash (you have NO argument against him), Williams, Paul, Rondo, Parker, Billups are all better right now.  Are you even sure he will be better than Brandon Jennings? Will he be better than Wall? You are a little too high on Rose, especially putting him in front of players that have actually been to the finals multiple times.

I do agree, however, that whoever said they'd rather have Baron Davis or Westbrook over Rose is ridiculous.

That argument feels like you're deliberately stacking the deck against Rose. Saying it's hard to judge him based on two years of being a shoot-first point guard when he has no real options to share the ball with, yet indicating he may be behind guys like Jennings and Wall who have half of Rose's experience combined?

Maybe it's unfair of me, but I've never bought into Nash. I think that he was inflated by D'Antoni's system and continues to reap its rewards. I'll admit, I've softened my stance this year after seeing him take the Lakers to Game 6, but if I could pick a point guard right now for one season, Nash would be behind Williams, Paul, Rose, and Rondo. Billups would certainly be in the debate for a season-long campaign, but I think the idea is that if you're looking at long-term, there's really no one in the league that has proven as much as Rose and is near his age. Rondo is three years older than him. Paul 4 years, Williams 5. What will Rose be in 3 years? I'd certainly take him over any of the above if we're factoring age into the equation (just as Wall will have that edge on Rose if he shows up as expected).

[Aughnanure]

That argument feels like you're deliberately stacking the deck against Rose. Saying it's hard to judge him based on two years of being a shoot-first point guard when he has no real options to share the ball with, yet indicating he may be behind guys like Jennings and Wall who have half of Rose's experience combined?

Maybe it's unfair of me, but I've never bought into Nash. I think that he was inflated by D'Antoni's system and continues to reap its rewards. I'll admit, I've softened my stance this year after seeing him take the Lakers to Game 6, but if I could pick a point guard right now for one season, Nash would be behind Williams, Paul, Rose, and Rondo. Billups would certainly be in the debate for a season-long campaign, but I think the idea is that if you're looking at long-term, there's really no one in the league that has proven as much as Rose and is near his age. Rondo is three years older than him. Paul 4 years, Williams 5. What will Rose be in 3 years? I'd certainly take him over any of the above if we're factoring age into the equation (just as Wall will have that edge on Rose if he shows up as expected).

You are crazy if you are picking Rose over Nash for ONE year. Sure, go ahead and use the "D'Antoni's system" argument against him...but what really is your argument for putting Rose even with that group? And wow are you overstating the age quotient. Wall we have an edge because he is two years younger? Come on, one will have the edge because one will be better than the other for the next 12 years. That simply is not a significant enough of an age difference. If you're starting a franchise you pick the best 'relatively' young player, not just the youngest. Furthermore, I just have never bought into Paul...he's good but when your teams have literally done nothing you do not get to be considered better than Nash, Williams, and Rondo who have all actually lead their teams to success. Paul doesnt even have a good argument over Parker and Billups, except for age.
 
I was pointing out that Chicago fans have gotten soo amazingly high on Rose they forget there are a lot of very good young point guards out there and he has yet to separate himself enough.

[MUSF]

You are crazy if you are picking Rose over Nash for ONE year. Sure, go ahead and use the "D'Antoni's system" argument against him...but what really is your argument for putting Rose even with that group? And wow are you overstating the age quotient. Wall we have an edge because he is two years younger? Come on, one will have the edge because one will be better than the other for the next 12 years. That simply is not a significant enough of an age difference. If you're starting a franchise you pick the best 'relatively' young player, not just the youngest. Furthermore, I just have never bought into Paul...he's good but when your teams have literally done nothing you do not get to be considered better than Nash, Williams, and Rondo who have all actually lead their teams to success. Paul doesnt even have a good argument over Parker and Billups, except for age.
 
I was pointing out that Chicago fans have gotten soo amazingly high on Rose they forget there are a lot of very good young point guards out there and he has yet to separate himself enough.

I agree with almost all of your points but I definitely think you are selling Paul short.  Sure he was overhyped a bit but he certainly has a good argument over Parker and Billups.  Parker and Billups are very good players that were fortunate to find themselves in great situations.  Paul has been less fortunate but is a better player.