No Reason To Fuss

[StillAWarrior]

What are they, and who's to blame? Is the message inaccurate/dishonest, or is the player choosing to hear what he wants to hear?

Perhaps some of both.  As I said in the other post, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

[Lennys Tap]

No, Chicos is (correctly) pointing out that IWB's story is Marquette's version of the events.

If that's what you think he's doing I've got some swampland in Florida you might be interested in.

[NavinRJohnson]

What I'm wondering is whether Newbill is pissed, or whether he's really disappointed.  In one of the articles he sounded more disappointed than pissed.  Even if IWB's version is 100% gospel truth, I'd expect that he'd be very disappointed -- and honestly, maybe even a little pissed.  If IWB's version is way off base, I'd expect him to be very, very pissed.

I hope this comes through in the interview Forster does.

We put an offer in on a new home a few weeks ago. We knew it was a solid offer, and we were quite confident we would soon be moving. We also knew there was a competing offer and nothing was certain, but I was already picking out paint colors and planning the move when I heard that ours was rejected. I was immediately pissed at everybody involved....mostly the home buying process, real estate agents, etc. (don't get me started on this...can't we just sit down and arrive at a price so that we both walk away happy?). Then a few days later, reality set in that we ultimatley lost out because I had convinced myself our offer was adequate, and I underestimated the possibility of the alternative, and didn't offer as much as we could have.

Everyone's initial reaction when something doesn't go the way you want it to is to try to blame someone else. What are you gonna do, blame yourself? Once the emotion is removed, reality tends to set in (although I do still think the agent did a crappy job).

[MUBurrow]

I'm going to try to lay out the reason I think that its ridiculous to give Buzz a pass on this and then back away.  Sorry for the inevitable diatribe, feel free to skip if its too long.

This is not just about breaking NCAA rules.  Buzz has always held himself above that, and with good reason.  But I have a philosophical problem with using LOIs this way.  The LOI is meant to be a commitment between the team and the player.  Thats why other teams can no longer contact the player.  The reason it isnt against the rules for the team to recruit over a signed player is because there is no way to draw a line between at what point that player can be cut for being a jagoff, not doing what hes supposed to be doing and when he signs.  This creates a situation of great disparity in power between the player and the university if there isnt an implied commitment on behalf of the university.

When you recruit over someone who has signed, you lessen the value of your own acceptance of LOIs.  To this, someone will sarcastically say "Oh, well we better be scared no one ever signs with us again then!" And of course while this isnt a concern, its also not the point.  At a small school like MU with a remarkably upstanding coach like Buzz, we like to think that welcoming signed players to the small community is sort of a rite of passage, and that at MU, the LOI is held up to be the public declaration of commitment between the player, the team, and by extension the MU community.  However after this, you just can't look at it exactly the same way again.  Whether or not he broke NCAA rules, those of us that our upset about this think Buzz broke Buzz's rules, or MU's rules - or at least the ones we believed for one reason or another were in place.  Sure, this was DJ's only chance to be on an MU team he wanted more than anything, but it turns out that Buzz didn't help the kid by allowing him to provisionally sign.  All the what-ifs in the world don't change the fact that Buzz declared publicly that DJ was his guy, only to renege on that later.  Whether or not DJ knew this, blinded by his desire to attend MU, doesn't make it right.  Buzz didn't prevent having to deliver some heartbreaking news to the kid, he only deferred it - while hoping he would get to deliver it later via the signing of a better player.

And from a basketball only standpoint, I'm not entirely convinced that this can't hurt. Buzz's entire appeal seems to be that he's different, that he abides by a higher code than the one imposed on him by the NCAA.  This changes the aura and culture of the program, even just a little.  We aren't worse than anyone else because of this, but its hard to argue that we aren't more like everyone else because of this.  And when you are the little engine that could like we are, there is something dangerous about being like everyone else.  Beyond that, I didn't go to MU so I could argue that we were just like everybody else.  Although this might be more of a philosophical point than a pragmatic one, i think these types of things that undermine the image you are trying to create can impact the way recruits and others think about the program, and in the end I just don't think its worth it for one player.

[NavinRJohnson]

And when you are the little engine that could like we are,

I guess therein lies the point...Buzz doesn't want  to be the conductor on little engine that could. Buzz wants MU to be the conductor on a locomotive. That's why he was hired, to recruit, and that's what he is doing...constantly.

[StillAWarrior]

We put an offer in on a new home a few weeks ago. We knew it was a solid offer, and we were quite confident we would soon be moving. We also knew there was a competing offer and nothing was certain, but I was already picking out paint colors and planning the move when I heard that ours was rejected. I was immediately pissed at everybody involved....mostly the home buying process, real estate agents, etc. (don't get me started on this...can't we just sit down and arrive at a price so that we both walk away happy?). Then a few days later, reality set in that we ultimatley lost out because I had convinced myself our offer was adequate, and I underestimated the possibility of the alternative, and didn't offer as much as we could have.

Everyone's initial reaction when something doesn't go the way you want it to is to try to blame someone else. What are you gonna do, blame yourself? Once the emotion is removed, reality tends to set in (although I do still think the agent did a crappy job).

Agreed.

[BrewCity83]

It'd be like if you asked the hottest girl to the dance and she said she would go with you unless a football player asks.  You say yes because it is a chance to go to the dance with the hottest girl.  The football player asks the hottest girl and you are crushed because it was your chance.  In the end, you knew this was possible the whole time.  You can still be disappointed.

Another great reason to go to MU.  No football players.

[TJ]

Exactly right, and the thing none of the artificially outraged individuals can seem to articulate, is what Buzz Williams has done during his time here that makes them more apt to take the word of a wannabe coach who was fired because someone was jealous of his success, posting on an internet message board, over MU's actual coach who has been a model representative of Marquette University. Is the fact that his name is not Tom Crean really that offensive to you?

Sounds repetitive, but...

This has nothing to do with phillycoach or tom crean whatsoever.

There is no artificial outrage.  I am genuinely disappointed.

Even if we assume IWB's version of events to be 100% accurate, I think this situation is unacceptable.  I don't think letting a kid sign a NLI when you plan on trying to recruit him off the team before he even steps foot on campus is acceptable, good, moral, right, etc.

[TJ]

We put an offer in on a new home a few weeks ago. We knew it was a solid offer, and we were quite confident we would soon be moving. We also knew there was a competing offer and nothing was certain, but I was already picking out paint colors and planning the move when I heard that ours was rejected. I was immediately pissed at everybody involved....mostly the home buying process, real estate agents, etc. (don't get me started on this...can't we just sit down and arrive at a price so that we both walk away happy?). Then a few days later, reality set in that we ultimatley lost out because I had convinced myself our offer was adequate, and I underestimated the possibility of the alternative, and didn't offer as much as we could have.

Everyone's initial reaction when something doesn't go the way you want it to is to try to blame someone else. What are you gonna do, blame yourself? Once the emotion is removed, reality tends to set in (although I do still think the agent did a crappy job).

Your metaphor is invalid.  You put in an offer.  There are scholarship offers in college basketball that could be roughly equivalent if you want them to be.  You did not have the offer accepted, come to a final agreement, and sign.  Which I would consider roughly equivalent to DJ's signing a NLI.

Of course there is another step, the closing, which DJ was not able to complete because the seller, MU, backed out of the contract.

[Pakuni]

Sounds repetitive, but...

This has nothing to do with phillycoach or tom crean whatsoever.

There is no artificial outrage.  I am genuinely disappointed.

Even if we assume IWB's version of events to be 100% accurate, I think this situation is unacceptable.  I don't think letting a kid sign a NLI when you plan on trying to recruit him off the team before he even steps foot on campus is acceptable, good, moral, right, etc.

Even when the kid is a willing participant?

[TJ]

I guess therein lies the point...Buzz doesn't want  to be the conductor on little engine that could. Buzz wants MU to be the conductor on a locomotive. That's why he was hired, to recruit, and that's what he is doing...constantly.

Then he shouldn't say that it's about the kids first and the other things he says that imply that winning is not his only motivation, but doing things "right" is just as important.

[GGGG]

What are they, and who's to blame? Is the message inaccurate/dishonest, or is the player choosing to hear what he wants to hear?

If were an isolated incident, I wouldn't know where to place blame.  But this is the third time such an instance has occured.

[TJ]

Even when the kid is a willing participant?

Yes.  It's bad form.  It enters a kid into a binding contract with MU that MU has no expectations of honoring itself.

[NavinRJohnson]

If were an isolated incident, I wouldn't know where to place blame.  But this is the third time such an instance has occured.

I keep hearing that in generalities. What specifically are the three instances, and what specifically happened that is causing you to place blame on Buzz Williams, as you clearly state you are doing?

[TJ]

I keep hearing that in generalities. What specifically are the three instances, and what specifically happened that is causing you to place blame on Buzz Williams, as you clearly state you are doing?

You can't possibly dispute that something happened with DJ Newbill and with Brett Roseboro, can you?

I don't know what the third example is - Maymon probably.

Either way, I think that the first two is enough to warrant considering this a situation that needs to be reversed.

[NavinRJohnson]

Either way, I think that the first two is enough to warrant considering this a situation that needs to be reversed.

Why? What has the negative impact of the Roseborro situation been?

[MUfan12]

If I remember right, the Roseboro transfer left them another player short last season. He wasn't run off. He couldn't hack it. So be it. He landed on his feet at a level more suited for him.

The Maymon situation was a strange beast. Pinning it on Buzz is at best a big reach and at worst disingenuous. It'd be like putting Mbakwe's last minute departure on Buzz.

[Pakuni]

Yes.  It's bad form.  It enters a kid into a binding contract with MU that MU has no expectations of honoring itself.

That's not exactly true, if IWB's account is mostly, if not entirely accurate.
It's more akin to an option. Under certain conditions, MU was entirely willing to honor the commitment and Newbill purportedly was made aware and agreed with those terms.
If you want to call it bad form, I agree. MU shouldn't be doing it because the negative consequences outweigh the potential benefits.
But if you want to call it immoral, wrong, etc. - and you have - then I disagree. It would only be immoral or wrong if DJ was an unwilling participant.

[Pakuni]

Why? What has the negative impact of the Roseborro situation been?

Marquette's player-to-stabbing incident ratio has fallen off the charts thanks to Roseboro's departure.
Also, the team is far less gingery these days.

[StillAWarrior]

Why? What has the negative impact of the Roseborro situation been?

Honest question for you Navin (and others):  If we have another recruit in 2011 who never makes it to campus and comments that they felt that Marquette backed out on them, would that trouble you that it was three years in a row?  How about if it happened again in 2012?

As I've tried to make clear, as long as Buzz was up front with Newbill, I don't really have too much of a problem with this.  But if it clearly becomes a pattern (it's open for debate whether it already has become a pattern -- but I don't think twice makes a pattern), do you have a problem with this practice?  I'm not sure I want to see a wake of 18 year old kids saying, "where the heck did my scholarship go?"  How many would it take before you think it's a problem?  Ever?  I'm not sure I'm there yet -- waiting to see the interview with DJ -- but I suspect I'm closer to that point than you are.

[TJ]

That's not exactly true, if IWB's account is mostly, if not entirely accurate.
It's more akin to an option. Under certain conditions, MU was entirely willing to honor the commitment and Newbill purportedly was made aware and agreed with those terms.
If you want to call it bad form, I agree. MU shouldn't be doing it because the negative consequences outweigh the potential benefits.
But if you want to call it immoral, wrong, etc. - and you have - then I disagree. It would only be immoral or wrong if DJ was an unwilling participant.

I think we're talking semantics now.  I agree with you and I think you pretty much agree with me.  Maybe I'm just using a harsher word than you are willing to.  Maybe I really do go slightly further in my distaste than you.  Either way, I think we generally are in agreement - it's bad form and a poor way to conduct the recruiting process.

[avid1010]

No, Chicos is (correctly) pointing out that IWB's story is Marquette's version of the events.

So you're saying what IWB posted is a lie, but he is not a liar.  It sounds like when he writes, "so here is the deal..." he gives the story his backing.  I, like just about everyone else on this board, has no idea what really went down, but when you pick one side or the other it seems like you better be willing to admit you're calling one side out for BS.  Otherwise just admit you have no idea what happened and reserve judgement until, if ever, the facts are out in the open.  

[NavinRJohnson]

Honest question for you Navin (and others):  If we have another recruit in 2011 who never makes it to campus and comments that they felt that Marquette backed out on them, would that trouble you that it was three years in a row?  How about if it happened again in 2012?

My answer is very simply, it depends. It depends on the specific circumstances. I hope all would agree that the Roseboro decision was in everyone's best interest. He is in a much more appropriate place right now, and I would say there is legitimate questions as to whether or not he will even be good enough to contribute there.

Newbill, I think is similar in that it seems he was not going to be a good enough player to play here. Put me in the camp that believes that was absolutely communicated to him at every point along the way, and he knew full well what happened was a possibility (whether he chose to believe it or not), rolled the dice and was disappointed when snake eyes came up.

Hypothetically, if we take/give a chance to a kid who is questionable academically, and it doesn't work out, again assuming everyone is honest and forthcoming, I wouldn't really see much problem with that either.

What I am finding particularly off putting is how many people are criticizing Buzz Williams based on the version of events supplied by people like Tim Maymon, Coach Spurned Lover, and a disappointed player, even though those comments in no way refute anything supplied by MU via IWB. I realize those individuals have earned the benefit of the doubt because they post comments on this board, when all Buzz Williams has done has been to act as an honest straightforward, model representative of MU in the two+ years he's been here.

[GGGG]

So you're saying what IWB posted is a lie, but he is not a liar.  It sounds like when he writes, "so here is the deal..." he gives the story his backing.  I, like just about everyone else on this board, has no idea what really went down, but when you pick one side or the other it seems like you better be willing to admit you're calling one side out for BS.  Otherwise just admit you have no idea what happened and reserve judgement until, if ever, the facts are out in the open.  

It is clear that IWB's post was basically what a MU guy told him.  He never spoke with DJ or anyone close to him.

I am not calling him a liar, just that two people can see the same thing and come up with something different.  I don't know what went down either, but some people who are saying that IWB is reporting something 100% factual is wrong...he is reporting 100% what he was told however.

[Pakuni]

Honest question for you Navin (and others):  If we have another recruit in 2011 who never makes it to campus and comments that they felt that Marquette backed out on them, would that trouble you that it was three years in a row?  How about if it happened again in 2012?

As I've tried to make clear, as long as Buzz was up front with Newbill, I don't really have too much of a problem with this.  But if it clearly becomes a pattern (it's open for debate whether it already has become a pattern -- but I don't think twice makes a pattern), do you have a problem with this practice?  I'm not sure I want to see a wake of 18 year old kids saying, "where the heck did my scholarship go?"  How many would it take before you think it's a problem?  Ever?  I'm not sure I'm there yet -- waiting to see the interview with DJ -- but I suspect I'm closer to that point than you are.

I guess my trouble with your question is that it makes the Roseboro and Newbill situations analogous, when really they are not.
Roseboro came to campus. Newbill did not.
Roseboro played/practiced with the team. Newbill did not.
Rosebore presumably completed his application/enrollment requirements. Newbill did not.
Roseboro publicly stated it was his choice to leave. Newbill is saying just the opposite.
Heading into Roseboro's freshman year, the program never publicly stated a committed player would not be coming to MU that year. Heading into Newbill's freshman year, the program did publicly state committed player would not be coming to MU that year.
Roseboro's departure left the team shorthanded. Newbill's departure came as a result of there being too many players.

How can you suggest a pattern from two events so dissimilar?

Now, to answer your question anyhow, I'm troubled by it happening one time. I don't think Marquette should be in the habit of signing kids under any pretense other than a 100 percent intention that the kid will be playing for Marquette.
That said, IMO, what occurred here has more to do with bad judgement (by everyone involved) than anything immoral or unethical.