No Reason To Fuss

[Knight Commission]

You can't possibly dispute that something happened with DJ Newbill and with Brett Roseboro, can you?

I don't know what the third example is - Maymon probably.

Either way, I think that the first two is enough to warrant considering this a situation that needs to be reversed.

You forgot one.........UNO

[Marquette84]

1. I meant that Damian Saunders' academics, and whether they were on par with Marquette's standards, only became an issue when it was clear the basketball team had more scholarship players than scholarships. They weren't a problem when he commited. Nor were they a problem when he signed. Or in May, June or July. Then all of a sudden things changed. What possibly could have happened between June and late August to have changed his academic situation? And why was a player like Dwayne Wade - who didn't meet NCAA standards - admitted, while Saunders - who did meet NCAA standards - denied? Did MU's standards change? And is it just a convenient coincidence that they changed just about the time Marquette had too many players and needed to cut someone loose?

Didn't we also know we had too many players the day Saunders signed?  You make it sound like we suddenly discovered too many players--in reality that fact was known for just as long as Saunders' grades.

Meanwhile, the last dates for the ACT/SAT are in mid-June, and if the writing test was involved it can take 8 weeks to post scores.  That would put the timeline for a final decision in mid August.  

The receipt of the final set of test scores provides a far more credible story than your allegations that we "suddenly" discovered we had too many players.

2. When did I ever claim there are "other cases similar to Newbill." In fact, I said something close to the opposite.

You said, and I quote:

"It has gone on. For a long time."

I don't believe this has gone on.  I believe cutting players that would otherwise be protected by an LOI is treading new ground.

"Honestly, I don't know the answer to that question. When it does happen, I suspect it's far more often the result of an off-court issue with the player (academic or otherwise) or a player decision than the university's decision. I don't think schools are in the habit of taking LOIs from kids they might not want, nor should they be."

And I'm not talking about those cases.  I'm talking about the novel approach of jettisoning a player who is otherwise qualified and still (supposedly) protected under an LOI.  

MU has done that two years in a row.

My point was that we'd be upset here if we learned that Pitino, Calhoun, Krzyszewski, or Huggins did the same thing.

And the second point is that it is an unsustainable practice if all schools did the same thing we did and would undoubtedly cause the NCAA to get involved.

Now, answer my questions (the ones you conveniently ignored).
How did Damian Saunders' academic situation change between June 2007 and August 2007?

The final test date occurred in mid-June and scores may not have been fully reported until up to 8 weeks later (mid-August).

How exactly would MU's decision to deny Saunders admission constitute fraud?

MU was obligated to provide a scholarship to Saunders.  Denying him admission under the false pretense that he was academically unqualified, but really for the sole purpose of breaking that agreement, would constitute fraud.  
 
I'm willing to accept that MU denied Saunders admission after receiving the final test scores and determining that he would not succeed academically.  

You implied that they lied about his academics and were really attempting to get out from under a contract.  You're alleging fraud.

BTW, the difference with Wade is that he had a poor GPA based on his early HS career, but was, in fact, earning good grades by his senior year--just not good enough to offset his bad start.  Therefore, its reasonable to conclude that he constituted an acceptable academic risk.

[Lennys Tap]

You are absolutely beyond the pale, 84. Sanders was FULLY qualified by NCAA standards and was enrolled at Duquesne on full scholarship days after MU (who didn't have room for him due to oversigning) allegedly decided that he didn't pass academic muster. If you honestly believe thay he wouldn't have been admitted if we weren't "overbooked" you are naive beyond belief.

And Wade was prop 48 because of his ACT scores, so take the BS about why we took him somewhere else. We took him because he absolutely blew up his senior year and was viewed as a possible program changer.

[StillAWarrior]

Furthermore, he didn't qualify academically, something Newbill DID.

When they say that DJ was qualified academically, do they mean qualified under NCAA standards, or do they mean qualified for admission to Marquette?  Do we know?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

These "kids were stunned when they were asked to leave"? I don't recall Roseboro saying he was stunned or asked to leave. Please reference his statement(s) saying otherwise.

To be fair, we don't know what the conversation was between Roseboro and Buzz.

But, I think it's fair to say that a kid coming to campus and then leaving right before school starts is "suprising" and/or "stunning".

We don't if Buzz asked him to leave, but I don't think Roseboro would have come to MU to play in the summer if he thought he'd be transferring... so I don't think "stunned" is an unfair description.

Back to your regularly scheduled debate(s).

[Lennys Tap]

To be fair, we don't know what the conversation was between Roseboro and Buzz.

But, I think it's fair to say that a kid coming to campus and then leaving right before school starts is "suprising" and/or "stunning".

We don't if Buzz asked him to leave, but I don't think Roseboro would have come to MU to play in the summer if he thought he'd be transferring... so I don't think "stunned" is an unfair description.

Back to your regularly scheduled debate(s).

Maybe you were stunned. Maybe Chicos was stunned. Maybe you think Rosebero should have been stunned. Maybe Chicos thinks Roseboro should have been stunned. But nothing in anything ROSEBERO said indicated he was stunned. Ergo, stating that he was stunned is indeed an unfair description.

[Pakuni]

Didn't we also know we had too many players the day Saunders signed?  You make it sound like we suddenly discovered too many players--in reality that fact was known for just as long as Saunders' grades.

Meanwhile, the last dates for the ACT/SAT are in mid-June, and if the writing test was involved it can take 8 weeks to post scores.  That would put the timeline for a final decision in mid August.  

The receipt of the final set of test scores provides a far more credible story than your allegations that we "suddenly" discovered we had too many players.

When did Saunders take his ACT or SAT?
What, you don't know? You're basing your entire argument around a complete fabrication - or, at best, complete guess - as to when the kid may or may not have taken the test?
Classic.
Beyond that, though, it's irrelevant. And that's because just a few short weeks after MU cut Saunders loose, he was playing at Duquense ... fully qualified.

Did MU know it had too many players when it signed Saunders? Obviously. They signed him because they believed a member of thew team - most likely Dominic James - would not be returning for the 2007-08 season and Damian would fill that spot. When it didn't happen that way - James had a lousy sophomore season and returned - they were in a pinch and needed to jettison someone. Damian Saunders was that someone.

The only alternative under your "theory" is that they signed Saunders hoping he wouldn't qualify academically. Cause if he did, they'd have too many players. Which is exactly what happened.

You said, and I quote:

"It has gone on. For a long time."

Seriously, is it possible for you to have a conversation without misstating or misrepresenting what others write.
Here's what I wrote after that, the part you chose to leave out:
The "it" I was referring to was the practice of taking more commitments than spots available at the moment with the expectation that a spot would be opening up (i.e. transfer, early draft entry, academic casualty, etc.).
Weird how you forgot to include that. Probably just an accidental oversight.

And I'm not talking about those cases.  I'm talking about the novel approach of jettisoning a player who is otherwise qualified and still (supposedly) protected under an LOI.  

Except Newbill was not protected under a LOI. You can claim it all you want, but it won't make it true.

The final test date occurred in mid-June and scores may not have been fully reported until up to 8 weeks later (mid-August).

And once again, I ask, when did Saunders take the test?
And why is it relevant if he fully qualified?
I suppose we could make the argument that it's because MU as more rigorous standards than the NCAA. But we know that's not true. Lots of schools like to think so. UW fans will say the same thing. But very few schools actually do. And Marquette isn't one of them.

MU was obligated to provide a scholarship to Saunders.  Denying him admission under the false pretense that he was academically unqualified, but really for the sole purpose of breaking that agreement, would constitute fraud.  

No, Marquette absolutely was not obligated to provide a scholarship to Saunders.
Now you're just making stuff up.
I'll go over it again, slower this time.

1. Marquette University has the absolute right to admit or deny anyone admission for whatever reason it chooses, so long as there is not discrimination on the basis of a that person being in a protected class (i.e. race, religion, age, gender, disability, nation of origin, etc.). If Marquette doesn't like your hairstyle, it can deny you admission. Marquette can deny you admission if it thinks your test scores are too good. Marquette can deny you admission if it doesn't like your favorite TV show. And, yeah, Marquette can deny you admission if it doesn't want you on its basketball team.

2. A National Letter of Intent becomes a binding agreement if - and only if - the student-athlete is admitted into the university or college with which he or she signs the letter. No admission, no deal. This exists for obvious reasons.

3. Damian Saunders was not admitted to Marquette University. Therefore, his National Letter of Intent was not a binding agreement. And therefore, Marquette University had zero obligation to provide Damian Saunders with a scholarship.

As I said earlier, it isn't rocket science.
 

You implied that they lied about his academics and were really attempting to get out from under a contract.  You're alleging fraud.

I implied no such things. His academics may have been awful for all I know. But that's not what kept him off campus, just like it  hasn't prevented other kids from getting into Marquette. It certainly hasn't led to many kids getting cut loose at the last minute. If a scholarship were available, and Saunders were fully qualified - which he was - he would have been at Marquette.
Funny how Saunders' grades only became an issue when there wasn't a scholarship available to him.

BTW, the difference with Wade is that he had a poor GPA based on his early HS career, but was, in fact, earning good grades by his senior year--just not good enough to offset his bad start.  Therefore, its reasonable to conclude that he constituted an acceptable academic risk.

Sure. That's the difference.
Playing ability had nothing to do with it.
Nor did the availability of a scholarship.
It was because of Dwyane's tremendous academic gains and classroom potential.

[ChicosBailBonds]

When they say that DJ was qualified academically, do they mean qualified under NCAA standards, or do they mean qualified for admission to Marquette?  Do we know?

Didn't qualify per Marquette's "standards"....that info was released by the university after the drug bust and after MU decided to part ways.

Those standards, of course, move whichever way a school wants to let more talented kids in and push less talented kids out.

[ChicosBailBonds]

What?
Damian Saunders absolutely qualified academically. How the heck do you think he played for Duquense just a few months after getting the boot from Marquette.
Marquette used the nebulous excuse that even though Saunders met NCAA requirements, he did not meet the school's requirements. Which is odd, given that Dwayne Wade did not meet NCAA requirements, yet somehow was admitted to Marquette. Maybe MU's standards are on a sliding scale, based on one's NBA potential.

The arrest thing has been addressed elsewhere. Crean said the arrest had nothing to do with it. If it did, why did the university wait two months after learning of the arrest to deny his admission?

He didn't qualify for Marquette....sorry I need to be more clear with you.  Here is the appropriated text that should help guide you through this complicated mine field.

"Unfortunately, Damian won't be able to be accepted at Marquette," said Crean. "His final grades and test scores were not at a level that was deemed appropriate for Marquette University. He's not through the (NCAA) Clearinghouse at this point. But this was more of a Marquette situation because of where he grades were at.

[StillAWarrior]

Didn't qualify per Marquette's "standards"....that info was released by the university after the drug bust and after MU decided to part ways.

Those standards, of course, move whichever way a school wants to let more talented kids in and push less talented kids out.

I was asking about DJ, not Saunders.  When Newbill and his camp say he has fully qualified, are they talking NCAA or Marquette?

[Lennys Tap]

Didn't qualify per Marquette's "standards"....that info was released by the university after the drug bust and after MU decided to part ways.

Those standards, of course, move whichever way a school wants to let more talented kids in and push less talented kids out.

Or to deny a fully qualified guy (Saunders) admission when we overbook.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I was asking about DJ, not Saunders.  When Newbill and his camp say he has fully qualified, are they talking NCAA or Marquette?

I think this can best be answered this way....if Wilson doesn't come along, he's qualified for MU.  If Wilson comes along, suddenly he's not qualified for MU.

[Pakuni]

He didn't qualify for Marquette....sorry I need to be more clear with you.  Here is the appropriated text that should help guide you through this complicated mine field.

"Unfortunately, Damian won't be able to be accepted at Marquette," said Crean. "His final grades and test scores were not at a level that was deemed appropriate for Marquette University. He's not through the (NCAA) Clearinghouse at this point. But this was more of a Marquette situation because of where he grades were at.

Big blue letters!?!?!?!?!?
Now I'm screwed!

Which is it, Chico's?
Earlier today, you told us Saudners was cut loose because he BROKE THE LAW.
Now it's because he didn't qualify under Marquette's standards.
The same standards by which the less academically credentialed Dwyane Wade, Lazar Hayward, Trevor Mbakwe and Yous Mbao did qualify.
Are you sure those standards don't shift conveniently depending on the player and scholarship situation?

Tell me, what would have happened if Tom Crean hadn't lucked out and the admissions office didn't discover  - oh, heck, wouldn't you know it? - in late August that Saunders didn't meet their requirements?
The naivete in this thread is amusing.

Oh by the way, since Pennslyvania basketball coaches always, always, always know and tell the 100 percent truth, here's Duquense coach Ron Everhart on Damian Saunders and Marquette:

"He got caught in a numbers game. They signed one too many players," Everhart said. "He was the odd-man out."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07323/835119-135.stm

[StillAWarrior]

I think this can best be answered this way....if Wilson doesn't come along, he's qualified for MU.  If Wilson comes along, suddenly he's not qualified for MU.

OK, so here's a question for you -- if Dominique James had gone to the NBA, would Saunders have qualified?

[NavinRJohnson]

Pakuni Rules!

Chicos is a complete hypocrite! He defends the Saunders and O'Brien decisions, yet when something similar happens with Buzz Williams, its not the way Marquette should be doing things. Speaks volumes.

[chapman]

He didn't qualify for Marquette....sorry I need to be more clear with you.  Here is the appropriated text that should help guide you through this complicated mine field.

"Unfortunately, Damian won't be able to be accepted at Marquette," said Crean. "His final grades and test scores were not at a level that was deemed appropriate for Marquette University. He's not through the (NCAA) Clearinghouse at this point. But this was more of a Marquette situation because of where he grades were at.

And discovered in mid-August, days before he was to set foot on campus.  Some due diligence there, unless he was needed summer school to graduate high school and didn't finish until August.  While both situations suck for the kids, at least Newbill has a month and a half to find a new home instead of a week. 

And can you please stop with the "look at me, I need attention, so I'll make everything big, colored, and underlined"? 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Maybe you were stunned. Maybe Chicos was stunned. Maybe you think Rosebero should have been stunned. Maybe Chicos thinks Roseboro should have been stunned. But nothing in anything ROSEBERO said indicated he was stunned. Ergo, stating that he was stunned is indeed an unfair description.

We'll agree to disagree.

I don't think a kid would travel across the country and bust his butt in summer ball if he wasn't expecting to play for that team.

Carry on.

[Litehouse]

We'll agree to disagree.

I don't think a kid would travel across the country and bust his butt in summer ball if he wasn't expecting to play for that team.

Carry on.

I have no doubt Roseboro was expecting to play when he left PA, and he tried his best in summer ball, but it didn't take him long to realize he was in way over his head, in both talent level and work-out intensity.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I have no doubt Roseboro was expecting to play when he left PA, and he tried his best in summer ball, but it didn't take him long to realize he was in way over his head, in both talent level and work-out intensity.

Yea, I can go along with that, but a lot of frosh. are overwhelmed. Does that mean they should all expect to leave before the first day of classes?

[Marquette84]

You are absolutely beyond the pale, 84. Sanders was FULLY qualified by NCAA standards and was enrolled at Duquesne on full scholarship days after MU (who didn't have room for him due to oversigning) allegedly decided that he didn't pass academic muster. If you honestly believe thay he wouldn't have been admitted if we weren't "overbooked" you are naive beyond belief.

I think you're smart enough to realize that MU's own academic standards are a bit higher than the NCAA minimums.   Whether or not Saunders was fully qualified under NCAA standards is irrelevant.  He wasn't fully qualified under MU standards--a decision that was made in the timeline consistent with the last test schedule for the ACT and SAT.

I fully believe that Blackledge would have been the one off the team if Saunders had qualified.  Trend had already missed a semester due to academics, MU was under no obligation to renew his scholarship, and Saunders was clearly the better player with far more upside potential.  I absolutely believe he was on the team that year only because Saunders wasn't admitted.

If you wish to believe otherwise, that's your prerogative.

And Wade was prop 48 because of his ACT scores, so take the BS about why we took him somewhere else. We took him because he absolutely blew up his senior year and was viewed as a possible program changer.

You absolutely don't know what you're talking about. 

The NCAA has a sliding ACT/Grade Point scale.  The higher your GPA, the lower the acceptable ACT score.

Wade had a missed a qualifying ACT score by 1 point--if his GPA had not been hurt by the poor freshman & sophomore HS performance, he would have fully qualified as a freshman.  Even his HS coach and HS counselors readily admitted that he got his academics in order proven by the fact that he was on the honor role by the end of his HS career.


 

[Marquette84]

Big blue letters!?!?!?!?!?
Now I'm screwed!

Which is it, Chico's?
Earlier today, you told us Saudners was cut loose because he BROKE THE LAW.
Now it's because he didn't qualify under Marquette's standards.
The same standards by which the less academically credentialed Dwyane Wade, Lazar Hayward, Trevor Mbakwe and Yous Mbao did qualify.
Are you sure those standards don't shift conveniently depending on the player and scholarship situation?

Dwayne Wade was NOT less academically credentialed.  His HS coach and counselors all readily admitted that he was not focused early in HS, but had become an exceptional honor role student by his senior year.

His problem was that He lacked the necessary GPA because he screwed up his freshman year in HS.

For example, when you average a 1.0 GPA from freshman and sophomore years with a 3.0 junior and senior year GPA, it still averages to a 2.0 overall. 

If you have a 2.0 GPA, you need a combined 86 on the ACT or 1010 on the SAT
If you have a 3.0 GPA, you need a combined 52 on the ACT or 620 on the SAT

Because Wade screwed up his first year or two in HS so his overall GPA was low and he needed a much higher ACT score. 

As much as you won't like them, those are the facts.  Wade was obviously a decent student by his senior year, but the hole he dug himself was too deep to dig out of.

Tell me, what would have happened if Tom Crean hadn't lucked out and the admissions office didn't discover  - oh, heck, wouldn't you know it? - in late August that Saunders didn't meet their requirements?
The naivete in this thread is amusing.

First, do you honestly believe that losing Saunders was "lucking out"?  He was clearly an outstanding player, and MU was right to give him every chance to prove he belonged.

If Saunders had qualified, Trend Blackledge would most likely have left the team, and it would have been so that he could focus on academics.  He had already missed a semester due to low grades, and MU was under no obligation to renew his scholarship.

MU gave Saunders every opportunity to prove that he could cut it--they made the final decision only after the final ACT/SAT test scores were reported.

[Lennys Tap]

We'll agree to disagree.

I don't think a kid would travel across the country and bust his butt in summer ball if he wasn't expecting to play for that team.

Carry on.

Reality often intrudes on our hopes and expectations. When that occurs individuals react in many different ways. Some are stunned, some are angry, some are accepting and move on. Roseboro's OWN WORDS place him  in that last category. But why believe him when we can have you and Chicos assign him emotions that YOU would feel.

Whether he's (falsely) accusing posters of making Stan Laws into Hitler (he's big on the Hitler comparisons - a sure sign of a weak argument), feigning outrage over things he previously accepted (see Damian Saunders) or just generally mischaracterizing people's words in order to advance an argument it's all basically the same BS. If you want to defend these practices it's okay by me but I find these kind of tactics borderline dishonest.

End of rant. Sorry if I dragged you in farther than was fair.  

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Reality often intrudes on our hopes and expectations. When that occurs individuals react in many different ways. Some are stunned, some are angry, some are accepting and move on. Roseboro's OWN WORDS place him  in that last category. But why believe him when we can have you and Chicos assign him emotions that YOU would feel.

Whether he's (falsely) accusing posters of making Stan Laws into Hitler (he's big on the Hitler comparisons - a sure sign of a weak argument), feigning outrage over things he previously accepted (see Damian Saunders) or just generally mischaracterizing people's words in order to advance an argument it's all basically the same BS. If you want to defend these practices it's okay by me but I find these kind of tactics borderline dishonest.

End of rant. Sorry if I dragged you in farther than was fair.  

Woah.

Yea, I think some of your rant is misplaced... but I'll leave that for you and Chico's to hash out.

My only point was, I don't think a kid would sign with MU, travel out to Milwaukee in the summer and bust his butt if he knew he would be asked/given the opportunity to transfer.

That's it.

[Litehouse]

Yea, I can go along with that, but a lot of frosh. are overwhelmed. Does that mean they should all expect to leave before the first day of classes?

His other option was to stay and ride the pine all year, transfer and sit out another year, and finally resume playing competitive basketball 2 years later.