No Reason To Fuss

[NavinRJohnson]

 I, like just about everyone else on this board, has no idea what really went down, but when you pick one side or the other it seems like you better be willing to admit you're calling one side out for BS.  

I am absolutely calling the Newbill side out for BS (though not him specifically as he has said nothing that is contrary to the IWB account), even though I think they probably have convinced themselves it is the truth.

[MUBurrow]

thats why i think the greater point here is that for many, the IWB account still leaves a bad taste in our mouths.  I wrote earlier, essentially on the belief that IWB's account was completely true.  But that still doesn't necessarily answer all the questions or make all the moral ambiguities disappear.  As much as anything, the candor is a little disconcerting, because it makes clear where Buzz comes down on an issue that makes many uncomfortable, and find inconsistent with the things we felt lead to believe.

*edited because I evidently disagree with English conventions, and still don't think i got it right.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I am absolutely calling the Newbill side out for BS (though not him specifically as he has said nothing that is contrary to the IWB account), even though I think they probably have convinced themselves it is the truth.

I don't know if this is right, but I think you have to at least examine the motivations of the people from Newbill's camp that have commented.  

They stand to benefit (at least their egos do) because they've been very involved with helping an upstanding young man get into one of the premiere b-ball conferences in the country.  I'm sure they are terribly disappointed, not only for DJ but also for themselves, because this is no longer the case.  

I'm not trying to say they are bad people, but that their own motivations and emotions are playing a role in how they interpret what happened and in what they are saying.  

[StillAWarrior]

I guess my trouble with your question is that it makes the Roseboro and Newbill situations analogous, when really they are not.
Roseboro came to campus. Newbill did not.
Roseboro played/practiced with the team. Newbill did not.
Rosebore presumably completed his application/enrollment requirements. Newbill did not.
Roseboro publicly stated it was his choice to leave. Newbill is saying just the opposite.
Heading into Roseboro's freshman year, the program never publicly stated a committed player would not be coming to MU that year. Heading into Newbill's freshman year, the program did publicly state committed player would not be coming to MU that year.
Roseboro's departure left the team shorthanded. Newbill's departure came as a result of there being too many players.

How can you suggest a pattern from two events so dissimilar?

Now, to answer your question anyhow, I'm troubled by it happening one time. I don't think Marquette should be in the habit of signing kids under any pretense other than a 100 percent intention that the kid will be playing for Marquette.
That said, IMO, what occurred here has more to do with bad judgement (by everyone involved) than anything immoral or unethical.

First, to answer the highlighted question -- I explicitly stated that I don't think it's a pattern.

I know there are differences between the situations.  I've factored that into my "I don't have much of a problem with this" comment.  My question is if every year there is a kid that is recruited and never actually ends up on the team, will some people ever think this is a problem?  Will there come a point after three, four, five years when some people will scratch their heads and say, "hmmm...I wonder why this keeps happening?  I wonder if maybe it has something to do with Marquette's side of the transaction?"  I'm not saying we're there yet.

[MUSF]

Sounds repetitive, but...

This has nothing to do with phillycoach or tom crean whatsoever.

On one level it does have something to do with Tom Crean.

It seems to me that some people on this board chose to bash Crean's character because he, a.) ran players off and b.) took flyers on recruits that weren't up to par or had issues outside of bball.

Now, it appears that Buzz is establishing a pattern of doing the same thing.

[avid1010]

It is clear that IWB's post was basically what a MU guy told him.  He never spoke with DJ or anyone close to him.

I am not calling him a liar, just that two people can see the same thing and come up with something different.  I don't know what went down either, but some people who are saying that IWB is reporting something 100% factual is wrong...he is reporting 100% what he was told however.

You have no idea if what IWB is posting is 100% factual or not...if you have proof that it is not, please call him out on it.  Until then, reserve judgement, which Chico's obviously didn't do.

[mug644]

I guess my trouble with your question is that it makes the Roseboro and Newbill situations analogous, when really they are not.
Roseboro came to campus. Newbill did not.
Roseboro played/practiced with the team. Newbill did not.
Rosebore presumably completed his application/enrollment requirements. Newbill did not.
Roseboro publicly stated it was his choice to leave. Newbill is saying just the opposite.
Heading into Roseboro's freshman year, the program never publicly stated a committed player would not be coming to MU that year. Heading into Newbill's freshman year, the program did publicly state committed player would not be coming to MU that year.
Roseboro's departure left the team shorthanded. Newbill's departure came as a result of there being too many players.

How can you suggest a pattern from two events so dissimilar?

Now, to answer your question anyhow, I'm troubled by it happening one time. I don't think Marquette should be in the habit of signing kids under any pretense other than a 100 percent intention that the kid will be playing for Marquette.
That said, IMO, what occurred here has more to do with bad judgement (by everyone involved) than anything immoral or unethical.

Here's another difference: when Roseboro was signed, everyone expected him to get to campus, start classes and be on the team; when Newbill was signed the staff seemed to think (hope?) he wouldn't be there, either because he wouldn't qualify, he would accept going to prep school or he would be over-recruited.

Buzz didn't take any heat for the Roseboro situation (except for the question about how a non-BEast caliber player that had just one weekend of superb ball could get a scholarship), because it was clearly a case of bad judgment, and Roseboro himself acknowledged it.

Unfortunately for Buzz, it appears that the third scenario has come to pass. So, he is getting, and deserving it my mind, heat for the Newbill situation because he essentially made a written commitment to DJ (even if it was conditional, and even if it was clear to DJ) with the intention/hope/possibility of pulling out of that commitment. I don't really care if it was immoral, unethical or bad judgment, but it was a poor choice, and counter to the messages Buzz sends out about himself.

I won't lose faith in Buzz, but I will look at him differently. He didn't need to handle Newbill's recruitment and cutting the way he did, and I, lil' ol' peon that I am, wish he hadn't.

[MUSF]

What I am finding particularly off putting is how many people are criticizing Buzz Williams based on the version of events supplied by people like Tim Maymon, Coach Spurned Lover, and a disappointed player, even though those comments in no way refute anything supplied by MU via IWB. I realize those individuals have earned the benefit of the doubt because they post comments on this board, when all Buzz Williams has done has been to act as an honest straightforward, model representative of MU in the two+ years he's been here.

To me, it's not a matter of one side is right and one is wrong or one side is telling the truth and the other is lying.  I firmly believe that the truth is somewhere in the middle but there is still reason for criticism of Buzz and the MU staff.

Best case scenario is that Buzz tried to make it clear to DJ that he would be recruited over, and he tried to make it clear to Roseboro and Yous that if they didn't display enough ability and effort that they would be let go, and he tried to make it clear to JMay and Tim that JM would play whatever position the team needed him to play and he would have to earn minutes/offensive touches.  This best case scenario still leaves me with two problems/concerns.

First, the comments by DJ, Philly Coach, people close to Roseboro, and Tim Maymon suggest that, at a minimum, Buzz did not communicate the above messages clearly enough.  This is starting to look like a trend to me.  If people seem to be constantly misinterpreting your message, it is probably time to look in the mirror and figure out how you can do a better job of communicating that message.  One fact that is indisputable is that more than one individual during Buzz's tenure feel that they were wronged by Buzz and MU.  To me, that is a problem that needs to be addressed.

The second issue with the best case scenario, is that the practice of over recruiting and dismissing players opens the program up to speculation and criticism.  This is obviously a calculated risk and I am not saying that Buzz should never over recruit or force guys out of the program but if you are going to do it, you better be damn sure that you have mitigated the potential negative effects as much as possible.  If we are going to make conditional offers like this, then it must be made clear that one of the conditions is that the player and his camp will not trash MU when he is asked to leave.  Otherwise, we shouldn't be making conditional offers.
  

[GGGG]

You have no idea if what IWB is posting is 100% factual or not...if you have proof that it is not, please call him out on it.  Until then, reserve judgement, which Chico's obviously didn't do.

No one has any idea of what any one has said is 100% factual. 

Furthermore, I actually never said what IWB wrote *wasn't* factual, just that it was MU side of the story and should be recognized as such.

[Nukem2]

No one here, or on any of the other message boards, has a clue as to what the facts are in this case.  Nothing but speculation and pure conjecture.  Time for the silly season to stop.  Lets talk basketball.  Its only 106 days to October 15th.

[Windyplayer]

I know, if that Philadelphia pipeline we have been milking all these years dries up, man, we are screwed.

Are you serious? We're "screwed" if the Philly market dries up? I forgot that was the mega hub of college basketball recruits. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of great basketball programs that have zero inroads to Philly.

[MUSF]

Are you serious? We're "screwed" if the Philly market dries up? I forgot that was the mega hub of college basketball recruits. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of great basketball programs that have zero inroads to Philly.

Sarcasm

[StillAWarrior]

Are you serious? We're "screwed" if the Philly market dries up? I forgot that was the mega hub of college basketball recruits. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of great basketball programs that have zero inroads to Philly.

Sad...it's a lost art.

[Lennys Tap]

No one has any idea of what any one has said is 100% factual. 

Furthermore, I actually never said what IWB wrote *wasn't* factual, just that it was MU side of the story and should be recognized as such.

You're wrong. Chicos knows the facts. In the Roseboro situation, Buzz and Roseboro were lying and Roseboro's coach was telling the truth. In this case, Buzz has been telling anybody and everybody for months that one of this year's recruits wouldn't be coming to MU this summer and that said recruit knew who he was. DJ and Stan Laws say Buzz told everybody but them. I know how preposterous that sounds, but when a self-proclaimed "Buzz lover" like Chicos says it's so who am I to argue?

[MUSF]

You're wrong. Chicos knows the facts. In the Roseboro situation, Buzz and Roseboro were lying and Roseboro's coach was telling the truth. In this case, Buzz has been telling anybody and everybody for months that one of this year's recruits wouldn't be coming to MU this summer and that said recruit knew who he was. DJ and Stan Laws say Buzz told everybody but them. I know how preposterous that sounds, but when a self-proclaimed "Buzz lover" like Chicos says it's so who am I to argue?

If Buzz and MU had effectively communicated, then we wouldn't have 3 different parties in two years claiming that Buzz said one thing and did another.  Not to mention the people in New Orleans who made the same allegation.  Communication is a two part transaction.  Did Buzz and the staff do everything they could to make sure the message was received properly by DJ, Roseboro, Maymon?

[Lennys Tap]

If Buzz and MU had effectively communicated, then we wouldn't have 3 different parties in two years claiming that Buzz said one thing and did another.  Not to mention the people in New Orleans who made the same allegation.  Communication is a two part transaction.  Did Buzz and the staff do everything they could to make sure the message was received properly by DJ, Roseboro, Maymon?

Roseboro's remarks indicate no communication problems with Buzz or his staff. From his own words I think it's pretty clear that Tim Maymon has always heard what he wanted to hear regarding Jeronne. I'm waiting to hear more on DJ, but I'll grant you it appears Buzz and the staff could/should have been better communicators.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I am absolutely calling the Newbill side out for BS (though not him specifically as he has said nothing that is contrary to the IWB account), even though I think they probably have convinced themselves it is the truth.

Why would a kid sign a NLI and give up his options if he was going to Prep School?  Can you or anyone else answer this for me?

[ChicosBailBonds]

You're wrong. Chicos knows the facts. In the Roseboro situation, Buzz and Roseboro were lying and Roseboro's coach was telling the truth. In this case, Buzz has been telling anybody and everybody for months that one of this year's recruits wouldn't be coming to MU this summer and that said recruit knew who he was. DJ and Stan Laws say Buzz told everybody but them. I know how preposterous that sounds, but when a self-proclaimed "Buzz lover" like Chicos says it's so who am I to argue?

Nice try....I was pointing out the similarities now with two different recruits in two different years with the same coach.

Yet some people want to blame the recruits, I'm only pointing out that this seems to have happened more than once with only one common denominator.

Now, does that make Buzz a liar?  No, nor did I ever say that so your cheap shot there is nothing but crap.  However, I would say that there seems to be a communication breakdown going on with some of these kids, their coaches and their families.   

Someone is either not listening (the players \ coaches \ families) or someone is not communicating clearly (our staff).

When you communicate CLEARLY you don't have kids STUNNED when they are asked to leave.


I ask again, why on earth would a kid sign a NLI to play at a school if he was told he would be going to a Prep School....why give up all your options, including a free ride somewhere else?  Secondly, why on earth after the NLI is signed would Marquette talk of him as if he is on this year's team and no mention at all of prep school?  Third, if Wilson didn't want to transfer in would Newbill be on the Marquette squad....I think you know that answer.
 

[avid1010]

No one has any idea of what any one has said is 100% factual. 

Furthermore, I actually never said what IWB wrote *wasn't* factual, just that it was MU side of the story and should be recognized as such.

You're previous quote:

"I don't know what went down either, but some people who are saying that IWB is reporting something 100% factual is wrong...he is reporting 100% what he was told however."

In one sentence you say that to believe what he's saying is 100% factual is wrong, and in the other you admit that you have no idea what is factual and that you never said what he posted wasn't factual.  So what you're saying is that what IWB is reporting factual information that he was told, but that the information he was told was not factual.  I'm asking you to prove that.

[GGGG]

You're previous quote:

"I don't know what went down either, but some people who are saying that IWB is reporting something 100% factual is wrong...he is reporting 100% what he was told however."

In one sentence you say that to believe what he's saying is 100% factual is wrong, and in the other you admit that you have no idea what is factual and that you never said what he posted wasn't factual.  So what you're saying is that what IWB is reporting factual information that he was told, but that the information he was told was not factual.  I'm asking you to prove that.

It is likely not 100% factual.  Jesus....

[avid1010]

When you communicate CLEARLY you don't have kids STUNNED when they are asked to leave.

I ask again, why on earth would a kid sign a NLI to play at a school if he was told he would be going to a Prep School....why give up all your options, including a free ride somewhere else?  Secondly, why on earth after the NLI is signed would Marquette talk of him as if he is on this year's team and no mention at all of prep school?  Third, if Wilson didn't want to transfer in would Newbill be on the Marquette squad....I think you know that answer.
 

I called an employee into my office three months ago and told him (verbally and with papers) his position would be eliminated on June 30, but I wanted to give him as much time as possible to find something new.  The last three months we talked a few times about his job search, and it was not going well for him.  About a week ago I called him in to see if he needed any help moving out of his office and he was shocked that I was actually going to lay him off.  

I get the skepticism, as this makes no sense to me either, but MU's story is out there, and I'm not sure we'll ever know how honest Buzz and the staff were with this kid.  I don't see what good it does to speculate.

[Lennys Tap]

Why would a kid sign a NLI and give up his options if he was going to Prep School?  Can you or anyone else answer this for me?

Think that's been asked and answered, but at the risk of being redundant: DJ was MAYBE a top 500 kid. His options were MU (if we couldn't sign a big), prep school or a place like Drexel. His aspirations are higher than Drexel. He can a) go to prep school to possibly improve his standing or b) sign with MU with the caveat that if MU can find a better, bigger player he'll have to go back to plan a). For a kid with bigger dreams than Drexel this seems like a no-brainer.

[Lennys Tap]

Nice try....I was pointing out the similarities now with two different recruits in two different years with the same coach.

Yet some people want to blame the recruits, I'm only pointing out that this seems to have happened more than once with only one common denominator.

Now, does that make Buzz a liar?  No, nor did I ever say that so your cheap shot there is nothing but crap.  However, I would say that there seems to be a communication breakdown going on with some of these kids, their coaches and their families.   

Someone is either not listening (the players \ coaches \ families) or someone is not communicating clearly (our staff).

When you communicate CLEARLY you don't have kids STUNNED when they are asked to leave.


I ask again, why on earth would a kid sign a NLI to play at a school if he was told he would be going to a Prep School....why give up all your options, including a free ride somewhere else?  Secondly, why on earth after the NLI is signed would Marquette talk of him as if he is on this year's team and no mention at all of prep school?  Third, if Wilson didn't want to transfer in would Newbill be on the Marquette squad....I think you know that answer.
 

These "kids were stunned when they were asked to leave"? I don't recall Roseboro saying he was stunned or asked to leave. Please reference his statement(s) saying otherwise.

[Litehouse]

I also haven't seen Newbill say he was stunned by this whole thing.  He said he was a little upset, which I would be too if this didn't work out for him.

[Pakuni]

Why would a kid sign a NLI and give up his options if he was going to Prep School?  Can you or anyone else answer this for me?

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but if he attends prep school, his NLI would be "satisfied" and he could then  re-open his recruitment and go elsewhere. Thus, it would not be "giving up his options" as you claim.
Beyond that, I find it unlikely that MU would refuse to release him from his NLI if he chose prep school, especially after stating they expected one of their recruits (gee ... I wonder which one) to go to prep school.