Can you imagine internet message boards in 1977

[ChicosBailBonds]

Not a complete 180.   Incredibly consistent.   Anything Crean does = good.   Anything Buzz does = find the negative angle.   

Kind of the inverse of what happens here most of the time 

[willie warrior]

One of the greatest moments in MU basketball history.  And I don't recall MU players hating him; only Badger fans and two Bucky twins' dad.   

I followed MU very closely when McGuire arrived and through his great run. Yeah, there were a few that did not like him, mainly because he was a cocky, brash guy from the Bronx. But he brought in great players, kept Raymonds as his asst., worked the media, looked out for his guys, filled the seats, and brought huge success to a faded program. He was one of a kind and a great guy.

[Gato78]

I was tight with players, managers and many others inside the program that year. I guarantee what I wrote is true. I loved Al, he is one of my heroes. That last year was different than any other. Many had turned on Al that year. Remember he announced his retirement during the season. Everyone turned around during the tournament, of course. Bill Neary was so pissed off about all the criticism, when the team came back from the title game, he said at the rally on the mall "this is for all of you who booed me on senior night". That is how crazy that year was--people were so pissed at the Neary vs Toone debate, he was booed on senior night. That regular season seems conveniently forgotten.

Gato

Not one person with inside knowledge or basketball knowledge ever were wishing for Hank era to start. Al checking out? Al checked in and out on a daily basis, but never lost sight of the upper five seats in the corner being filled.

Al would have made this board completely readable because never a day passed that he was not in the spotlight. Followed the team a long time like many on here, but back then or now I could not tell you a person that did not wait to hear or see what h did next.

[Goose]

Gato

Will agree to disagree. Good thing about this board we can all voice are opinions. One thing we can agree on is Al was a hero to us.

[dgies9156]

I know I am late to the party on this one, but man, my mind was running 200 miles an hour at the thought of how Al would be treated if MU Scoop were around in the 1970s. I was there and while we loved Al, there were a few times when, well, we just wondered.

Some thoughts on things that already have been echoed:

1) Al would have been skewered 100 different ways to Sunday over the double technicals in the NC State Championship game. My recollection was he thought we were being screwed by referees (gee, not a totally uncommon thought in the McGuire years) but those technicals changed the nature of the game. I remember getting up from my seat after the second and thinking, "this one is over!"

2) Given the tenor of the times, which were far different from today (thank God), the racial make-up of our team would have been an issue in some quarters. We were way ahead of our time in being one of the few colorblind schools in America. That did not always play well among fans and supporters of college basketball

3) On a related topic, we played "street" ball -- aggressive and harsh -- rather than the softer fineness ball played by some schools, particularly SEC schools! Some people thought we, uhhh, cheated.

4) Starting Allie McGuire over George "Sugar' Frazier would have been the Topic de Jour for some time. Al was open about it but if you think we have debates now over who should be our starting guards, those are mild compared to what would have been in the McGuire/Frazier debate. Every time Allie missed a shot, someone would be screaming "Sugar would have made it!"

5) OK, it was 1969, but a McGuire years moment anyway. Poor Ric Cobb would have been toasted for missing a free throw against Purdue in the Mideast Regional championship in Madison. We lost the game in OT we should have won in regulation had Cobb hit a free-throw with two seconds left. Cobb, by the way, was a star on that team.

6) "Al can't win the big one." The corollary would be "Al Chokes!" We went to the NIT in 1970, lost to Ohio State in 1971, went no where after Chones left in 1972, lost early again in 1973, 1975 and couldn't beat NC State or Indiana in 1974 and 1976. Our break-through in 1977 was, to many, a fluke.

7) One of our ballplayers was cited for having a nickel bag on the front seat of "his" car in 1976 or 1977. Given the well commented recent incidents involving our athletes, campus security and the Milwaukee Police, only God knows what Scoopers would have said about this one!

8) When Larry McNeill turned pro, the blasting he would have received would have been exponentially greater than anything Vander Blue received.

9) Think of what the naysayers and Hiroshima advocates would have said when Maurice Lucas turned pro in September 1974. "Our season just went up in smokes...." or "There goes any chance at being anything..." Al had us in a much more restrictive NCAA tournament that year.

[dgies9156]

The bigger problem followin' Al's retirement lies with the administration. Completely dropped the ball followin' a National Championship. WTF?

We were drinking the Kool Aid so hard in 1977 we never saw it coming. I honestly think many of us thought we had a God-given right to be a Top 5 basketball team and that Donald Duck could coach the team to the NCAA Championship. We really took Al for granted and I think that was the tenor of the university as well.

Not to mention the fact that more than a few of the intellectual snobs around the university thought it appalling that the basketball coach was the university's highest paid employee and that Marquette was better known for basketball than for their particularly field.

I've said many times in here that Hank was a horrible mistake. He didn't get the job in 1964 and should not have had it in 1977. He was like Bill Guthridge at UNC (as another was trying to say). The greatest assistant in history but not a particularly good head coach. Sure Hank won, but the erosion in our program and in our university was not insignificant. The Jesuits figured that out too late. We're still recovering from it.

[MUfan12]

2) Given the tenor of the times, which were far different from today (thank God), the racial make-up of our team would have been an issue in some quarters. We were way ahead of our time in being one of the few colorblind schools in America. That did not always play well among fans and supporters of college basketball

Unfortunately, if you go around the state, this sentiment is still there towards MU.

[tower912]

Kind of the inverse of what happens here most of the time 

You must not have been reading the board over the last month if you believe that no one criticizes Buzz.   I would venture as far as to say that the criticism of Buzz in the last month has been harsher than the criticism of Crean when he was still MU's coach.  IMO, the vast majority of the scoop board supported Crean while he was coach here.   The vast majority of the board supports Buzz, but the criticism has been louder here than it was under Crean......until he left.  Then, a whole bunch of pent up, repressed frustrations came pouring out and became the narrative.   Which is still on-going, for better or worse.   

[Lennys Tap]

Kind of the inverse of what happens here most of the time 

Here's the fundamental difference. Those of us who love Buzz and despise Crean are honest and transparent about how we feel and why we feel that way. Those who to this day constantly defend TC while ripping Buzz at every opportunity (most notably you and 84) dishonestly portray yourselves as "fair and balanced", "I love both" guys.

[The Equalizer]

Here's the fundamental difference. Those of us who love Buzz and despise Crean are honest and transparent about how we feel and why we feel that way. Those who to this day constantly defend TC while ripping Buzz at every opportunity (most notably you and 84) dishonestly portray yourselves as "fair and balanced", "I love both" guys.

Let's compare:

Example 1:
Lenny's definition of honesty:
Suggesting that Buzz turned a couple of non-top 500 HS players (Butler & Crowder) into NBA draft picks, as you did earlier this week.

Lenny's definition of dishonesty:
Me pointing out that Buzz didn't get a hold of Crowder or Butler until they were JUCO All Americans (Crowder, the POY).

Example 2: 
Lenny's definition of honesty:
Repeating that the "cupboard was empty" the day Buzz took the job.

Lenny's definition of dishonesy:
Me listing every player on the roster (all 12) the day Buzz was hired, admitting that two (Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor) had left (or indicated they wanted to) becuase of the coaching change, pointing out that we were overcommitted (14 signed or returning before Crean left) and one would have to leave anyway.  Then pointing out that Buzz filled that slot and had a completely full roster (and completely balanced with 3 classes with 3 players and one with 4) within 10 days of being named coach.

I could go on all day with this warped sense of honesty.

Meanwhile, I have consistently complemented Buzz over the years for keeping MU at the level that Crean brought us. You refuse to admit that I've said that many times over the years.   You keep "accusing" me of some "pro-Crean" or "anti-Buzz" agenda--but then somehow overlook that accusation I say Buzz and Crean have performed nearly equally. 

Fact facts--you're the only one who's "anti-" anyone. And you fundamentally can't deal with anyone who would choose to deal with Crean and Buzz fairly and honestly. You admit you despise Crean, therefore you can't deal with any honest comparision.  You need to create false idoloty for Buzz so that he's never even vewed as so much as equal to the guy you dispise.

You have a hair-trigger reflex whenever anyone brings up deserved criticism of Buzz or disagrees with your idolization.  You never fail to a) bring up a comparison to Crean and b) personally attack anyone who doesn't agree that Buzz is superior in everythign he does.

Buzz not perfect, and much of what you and others praise him for is either based on false premises (see the two examples above) or hyperbole ("Buzz always has the team playing better in March").  Given that this is a message board and not Buzz's personal PR hotline, we shouldn't have to limit ourselves to only positive comments, and we should be able to point out the flaws in your "logic".

We should be able to question Buzz's inaiblity to consitently have freshmen ready to contribute in November or December.  We should be able to question his recruiting when he continues offers scholarships to Mbao, or Durley, or Roseboro or Fergueson while jettisoning Newbill. We should be able to question his in-game adjustments when we watch an entire half of basketball like the 2nd half of the Ohio State game, or a 17 point lead evaporate in minutes as we did against Louisville.

And we should be able to bring up thiese things without you trying to go through 9 years of Crean and try to bring up some equivalent ebarassing game as if that means we shouldn't talk about the here-and-now. 

And I bring these up because I'm first and foremost a Marquette fan--not first and foremost a Buzz fan. 

I am convinced that you care less about Marquette and more about Buzz.

[Aughnanure]

Another thread ruined?

SHOCKED

[tower912]

Sure, 84, that last line reeks of honesty and isn't the least bit hyperbolic.   You rock, dude.  

[Lennys Tap]

Let's compare:

Example 1:
Lenny's definition of honesty:
Suggesting that Buzz turned a couple of non-top 500 HS players (Butler & Crowder) into NBA draft picks, as you did earlier this week.

Lenny's definition of dishonesty:
Me pointing out that Buzz didn't get a hold of Crowder or Butler until they were JUCO All Americans (Crowder, the POY).

Example 2: 
Lenny's definition of honesty:
Repeating that the "cupboard was empty" the day Buzz took the job.

Lenny's definition of dishonesy:
Me listing every player on the roster (all 12) the day Buzz was hired, admitting that two (Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor) had left (or indicated they wanted to) becuase of the coaching change, pointing out that we were overcommitted (14 signed or returning before Crean left) and one would have to leave anyway.  Then pointing out that Buzz filled that slot and had a completely full roster (and completely balanced with 3 classes with 3 players and one with 4) within 10 days of being named coach.

I could go on all day with this warped sense of honesty.

Meanwhile, I have consistently complemented Buzz over the years for keeping MU at the level that Crean brought us. You refuse to admit that I've said that many times over the years.   You keep "accusing" me of some "pro-Crean" or "anti-Buzz" agenda--but then somehow overlook that accusation I say Buzz and Crean have performed nearly equally. 

Fact facts--you're the only one who's "anti-" anyone. And you fundamentally can't deal with anyone who would choose to deal with Crean and Buzz fairly and honestly. You admit you despise Crean, therefore you can't deal with any honest comparision.  You need to create false idoloty for Buzz so that he's never even vewed as so much as equal to the guy you dispise.

You have a hair-trigger reflex whenever anyone brings up deserved criticism of Buzz or disagrees with your idolization.  You never fail to a) bring up a comparison to Crean and b) personally attack anyone who doesn't agree that Buzz is superior in everythign he does.

Buzz not perfect, and much of what you and others praise him for is either based on false premises (see the two examples above) or hyperbole ("Buzz always has the team playing better in March").  Given that this is a message board and not Buzz's personal PR hotline, we shouldn't have to limit ourselves to only positive comments, and we should be able to point out the flaws in your "logic".

We should be able to question Buzz's inaiblity to consitently have freshmen ready to contribute in November or December.  We should be able to question his recruiting when he continues offers scholarships to Mbao, or Durley, or Roseboro or Fergueson while jettisoning Newbill. We should be able to question his in-game adjustments when we watch an entire half of basketball like the 2nd half of the Ohio State game, or a 17 point lead evaporate in minutes as we did against Louisville.

And we should be able to bring up thiese things without you trying to go through 9 years of Crean and try to bring up some equivalent ebarassing game as if that means we shouldn't talk about the here-and-now. 

And I bring these up because I'm first and foremost a Marquette fan--not first and foremost a Buzz fan. 

I am convinced that you care less about Marquette and more about Buzz.

Lies, more lies, followed by more damn lies - you wear me and nearly everyone else on the board out with an endless stream. I've supported MU basketball in all of its iterations since before you could read, write or think logically - skills you struggle with to this day. Go fight with somebody else here who thinks you're full of it - there are literally hundreds available.

[The Equalizer]

Go fight with somebody else here who thinks you're full of it - there are literally hundreds available.

Whoa.

I hadn't posted in this thread.  You called me out (by lying about me, btw).

Now you expect me to fight someone else?

[Lennys Tap]

Now you expect me to fight someone else?

You will soon. It's what you do.

[jmayer1]

Whoa.

I hadn't posted in this thread.  You called me out (by lying about me, btw).

Now you expect me to fight someone else?

Do you think the following statement is true or false?

You (and CBB) used to spend a lot of posts trying to disprove bad things said about the former coach. Now, you both spend a lot of posts trying to disprove good things said about the current coach.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Do you think the following statement is true or false?

You (and CBB) used to spend a lot of posts trying to disprove bad things said about the former coach. Now, you both spend a lot of posts trying to disprove good things said about the current coach.

As a non-member of the CBB/Equalizer/Hoopaloop conspiracy triangle I will say true about the first part (but someone has to be that voice here since everyone else is drunk on TC flavored haterade) and false about the 2nd one. Being grounded in their praise is not the same as disproving good things about Buzz.

We are all MU fans here fellas

[The Equalizer]

Do you think the following statement is true or false?

You (and CBB) used to spend a lot of posts trying to disprove bad things said about the former coach. Now, you both spend a lot of posts trying to disprove good things said about the current coach.

I don't think I try to disprove good about Buzz or bad about Crean--I try to disprove false things about either.  

For whatever reason, there is more false negative about Crean--both then and now--and far more false positive things (a good portion of them by the same handful of people) about Buzz.  

You can disagree if you want.  

But example after example, the guilty have tried to transfer the argument away from their own false statement on me personally for daring to disagree, inventing some "anti-Buzz agenda" as the boogeyman of choice.

Lenny's comment about Buzz coaching two Sub-500 HS kids (Butler & Crowder) to the NBA is a perfect example.

Look, Jae, Jimmy, Buzz, myself and anyone with a shred of intellectual honesty all know those kids made a hell of a lot of progress between the end of their HS senior season and the day they stepped foot on Marquette's campus.  

It hacks me off when Lenny ignores the development those kids made on their own--before Buzz started coaching them.  Yes, give Buzz credit for coaching them from JUCO AA to the NBA.  But he constantly gives false credit for the development those players from HS.  And that demeans all of the effort that they undertook on their own (or with their JUCO coaches) to get to the level where a D1 program would even recruit them.  

And his response when I point this out is to attack me for having some "anti-Buzz" agenda.  Because I won't give Buzz credit for what Jimmy and Jae already showed before they got to campus.

[The Equalizer]

As a non-member of the CBB/Equalizer/Hoopaloop conspiracy triangle I will say true about the first part (but someone has to be that voice here since everyone else is drunk on TC flavored haterade) and false about the 2nd one. Being grounded in their praise is not the same as disproving good things about Buzz.

We are all MU fans here fellas

Thank you.

[ChicosBailBonds]

As a non-member of the CBB/Equalizer/Hoopaloop conspiracy triangle I will say true about the first part (but someone has to be that voice here since everyone else is drunk on TC flavored haterade) and false about the 2nd one. Being grounded in their praise is not the same as disproving good things about Buzz.

We are all MU fans here fellas

Thank you, except for the part where you quoted jmayer so it kills my ignore of him. Glad to see he still has the conspiracy glasses on.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't think I try to disprove good about Buzz or bad about Crean--I try to disprove false things about either.  

For whatever reason, there is more false negative about Crean--both then and now--and far more false positive things (a good portion of them by the same handful of people) about Buzz.  

You can disagree if you want.  

But example after example, the guilty have tried to transfer the argument away from their own false statement on me personally for daring to disagree, inventing some "anti-Buzz agenda" as the boogeyman of choice.

Lenny's comment about Buzz coaching two Sub-500 HS kids (Butler & Crowder) to the NBA is a perfect example.

Look, Jae, Jimmy, Buzz, myself and anyone with a shred of intellectual honesty all know those kids made a hell of a lot of progress between the end of their HS senior season and the day they stepped foot on Marquette's campus.  

It hacks me off when Lenny ignores the development those kids made on their own--before Buzz started coaching them.  Yes, give Buzz credit for coaching them from JUCO AA to the NBA.  But he constantly gives false credit for the development those players from HS.  And that demeans all of the effort that they undertook on their own (or with their JUCO coaches) to get to the level where a D1 program would even recruit them.  

And his response when I point this out is to attack me for having some "anti-Buzz" agenda.  Because I won't give Buzz credit for what Jimmy and Jae already showed before they got to campus.

Well said.  Those kids had offers from many solid programs.  Doesn't make it anti-Buzz, just fills in the gap with some honest to goodness facts.  One would think from the original post Buzz made a basketball manager that couldn't lift a ball over his head into a NBA prospect.  No, actually Buzz did a very nice job of taking some very good basketball players and instilling the work ethic, confidence, etc to get to that professional level.  Just as TC did prior, and MD prior, etc, etc.

[jmayer1]

Thank you, except for the part where you quoted jmayer so it kills my ignore of him. Glad to see he still has the conspiracy glasses on.

That's cute. I'll take a small smidgen of satisfaction getting put on ignore by a guy who's been banned from multiple message boards, at least according to people here, for being a self-righteous troll.

[jmayer1]

I don't think I try to disprove good about Buzz or bad about Crean--I try to disprove false things about either.  

For whatever reason, there is more false negative about Crean--both then and now--and far more false positive things (a good portion of them by the same handful of people) about Buzz.  

You can disagree if you want.  

That's fair enough. We can agree to disagree.