Can you imagine internet message boards in 1977

[ChicosBailBonds]

At roughly this time in 1977, Marquette had 7 regular season losses (we have 8 right now)....I can just imagine the vitriol.

 

[77ncaachamps]

But there were differences.

The year before MU went to the NCAAs with a team that was similar to their 1977 team.

AND we had AL. 

[mviale]

It shows that any team can get hot and take it all.   When these guys are firing on all cylinders - watch out.  Yes, I wish we had Greg Oden, but this is the army we have.

[spartan3186]

I guarantee you we are not a team the high seeds will want to see, say we get a ten seed... do you think that any 2 seed would want to see MU in the second round knowing what this team is capable of? I think not

[ChicosBailBonds]

But there were differences.

The year before MU went to the NCAAs with a team that was similar to their 1977 team.

AND we had AL. 

Yes, but 7 losses back in those days was pretty bad for a NCAA team...some will argue we only got in because it was Al's last year.

The point is, we weren't hitting on all cylinders and based on what I've read here at times I'm sure there would be more than a few that would lite that team up for not delivering the goodies to satisfy the desires of some fans...God forbid.   

[77ncaachamps]

I suppose so.

But I'd have more confidence in an experienced team returning to the tourney than one that's as inexperienced as ours now.

Plus, the 77 team had AL.

 

[Coach Norman Dale]

For those amongst this group who do not know the story, Marquette was the last team selected for the field of 32 -- yes, 32 -- in 1977. 

The selections were made at halftime of Marquette's final regular season game versus a strong Michigan team.  [This is how things were done before big money entered the tournament.  There was no televised selection show, the NIT was only a slightly less acceptable alternative, and championships were played in venues designed for basketball rather than domed stadiums.]  Marquette was winning the game at halftime, but eventually lost.

To indicate that Marquette received a bid, if they received a bid, Al promised to change his suit at halftime.  After halftime, he came out in a different suit, and wore that suit for every game throughout the rest of the tournament.

Also, at the time Marquette won the championship in 1977, it had the most was losses of any team to win it all. 

As for Chico's suggestion about the impact of the Internet if it existed at that time, I am left to wonder about what consipracy theories would have resulted regarding the game versus UNC-Charlotte (the George Mason of the 1977 tournament).  It has always appeared to me -- from the time it happened -- that Jerome Whitehead's game winning shot was offensive goal tending.  He attempts a dunk, the ball slips out of his hand, goes off the backboard, and makes contact in the cylinder with the back of his hand, which on his follow through went into the basket, and then fell through (the ball not his hand).  Maybe the stars were properly aligned -- Marquette gets the last spot in the tournament, wins this game and goes on to win it all in Al's final game, or was it something more at play here?   

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

At roughly this time in 1977, Marquette had 7 regular season losses (we have 8 right now)....I can just imagine the vitriol.

 

You couldn't be more right. All of Al's techniques are cheered and romanticized today, but let's face it: a lot of people hated him, including his own players.

Al was a master motivator and knew what he was doing (at least we all assume so), but the message boards would have been burning up if people had heard the rumor about him fighting his own players.

Hell, people were mad at Crean for grabbing the ball and yelling at the refs. Al stood on the scorers table while people flipped him the finger!

Big difference, yet Al is looked upon as a saint and Crean gets blasted.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Al McGuire had more personality and charisma in one of his hair follicles than Crean will ever have. To compare the two is just beyond ridiculous.

[mviale]

Easy to compare Crean and McGuire.  Crean is the only other MU coach to take us to the Final four and he is far from done.

[Mayor McCheese]

If there was message boards in 1977, I wouldn't have seen them 

[augoman]

At roughly this time in 1977, Marquette had 7 regular season losses (we have 8 right now)....I can just imagine the vitriol.

 

You couldn't be more right. All of Al's techniques are cheered and romanticized today, but let's face it: a lot of people hated him, including his own players.

Al was a master motivator and knew what he was doing (at least we all assume so), but the message boards would have been burning up if people had heard the rumor about him fighting his own players.

Hell, people were mad at Crean for grabbing the ball and yelling at the refs. Al stood on the scorers table while people flipped him the finger!

Big difference, yet Al is looked upon as a saint and Crean gets blasted.

Actually, 'people didn't flip him the bird'... just the father of UW's Kim and Kerry Hughes.  It made the front page of the journal sports, and he was very visible and very obvious.  A typical UW fan.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

At roughly this time in 1977, Marquette had 7 regular season losses (we have 8 right now)....I can just imagine the vitriol.

 

You couldn't be more right. All of Al's techniques are cheered and romanticized today, but let's face it: a lot of people hated him, including his own players.

Al was a master motivator and knew what he was doing (at least we all assume so), but the message boards would have been burning up if people had heard the rumor about him fighting his own players.

Hell, people were mad at Crean for grabbing the ball and yelling at the refs. Al stood on the scorers table while people flipped him the finger!

Big difference, yet Al is looked upon as a saint and Crean gets blasted.

Imagine the outrage if Crean stood on the scorers table or danced at half court ala St. Mike Deane*.

*sainthood for M. Deane has only been achieved in the minds of a small number of people who still believe that MU would be better off with Deane at the helm. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Al McGuire had more personality and charisma in one of his hair follicles than Crean will ever have. To compare the two is just beyond ridiculous.

Actually, I was comparing the reactions of the fans, not Crean and Al. I was referencing what the fan reaction/message boards would have been like given Al's controversial nature. Please re-read my post. Thanks.

Again, people love to make it seem like Al was a national hero, when truth be told he had plenty of doubters. Read any old interviews with him, he says that a lot of people used to hate him (even MU fans).

I will not compare Crean to Al, but I will say that the fan reaction for Crean is probably similar to what Al faced. (again, I’m comparing FAN reaction, not the 2 coaches)

Some people don't like Crean, some people love him. I'm not really for or against him, but I am for success. He is BY FAR the second most successful coach at MU and he's only been here since 1999.

Other coaches have had some success, but nobody (outside of Al) has the resume that Crean is building.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Al McGuire had more personality and charisma in one of his hair follicles than Crean will ever have. To compare the two is just beyond ridiculous.

You may be right, but Al McGuire liked Tom Crean tremendously and hearing that directly from Al is enough for me.

McGuire believed in Crean.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

At roughly this time in 1977, Marquette had 7 regular season losses (we have 8 right now)....I can just imagine the vitriol.

 

You couldn't be more right. All of Al's techniques are cheered and romanticized today, but let's face it: a lot of people hated him, including his own players.

Al was a master motivator and knew what he was doing (at least we all assume so), but the message boards would have been burning up if people had heard the rumor about him fighting his own players.

Hell, people were mad at Crean for grabbing the ball and yelling at the refs. Al stood on the scorers table while people flipped him the finger!

Big difference, yet Al is looked upon as a saint and Crean gets blasted.

Actually, 'people didn't flip him the bird'... just the father of UW's Kim and Kerry Hughes.  It made the front page of the journal sports, and he was very visible and very obvious.  A typical UW fan.

Agreed. I've seen the picture and heard the story. I think its great.

I'm just saying that Al had plenty of contraversial tatics that people (mu fans and opposing fans) hated. I'm sure there are plenty of MU fans that hated that he stood on the table.

If there were message boards back then... people would have been burning them up and saying some crazy stuff about Al.

[Marquette84]

I suppose so.

But I'd have more confidence in an experienced team returning to the tourney than one that's as inexperienced as ours now.

And given the level of complaint with an inexperienced team and 8 losses, can you imagine what 7 losses would cause when you have everyone back from a 28-2 team?

Lets have some fun with today's board magically transported to Late-February 1977:

"SEVEN losses with this much experience returning is UNACCEPTABLE!"

"We've underachieved every year McGuire has been here, and we're screwing the pooch BIG TIME this year.  Thank God he's gone."

"If only AM could recruit a decent big man.  We need another aircraft carrier--we haven't had once since Chones left, and Ellis and Whitehead simply aren't getting the job done."

"We can't really give AM credit for the Final Four, because he had Tatum and Lucas"  What has Al done without players like that?

"We should have at least FOUR championships already.  Our talent since '74 is at least as good as Wooden's."

"Clearly scheduling is hurting us down the stretch.  We're simply not prepared to play in February and March."

"We had the greatest MU player ever in George Thompson--and all he have to show for his efforts is an NIT runner-up. "

"Rutgers doesn't have a single player who would start for us, and they made the final four last year."

"At least we don't have to go through the heartbreak of ANOTHER early exit from the NCAA--we won't even MAKE the field this year."

"The administration doesn't care about the alumni.  Our nickname will always be the HILLTOPPERS."

[ChicosBailBonds]

Marquette84....post of the year


Nicely done

[ZiggysFryBoy]

that should be put in the Wiki!

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

That's pretty funny stuff.

Well done.

[mviale]

That might be deja vu for some of the old-timers.

[Coach Norman Dale]

Excellent work, Marquette84!  The only thing I would add to keep it relevant with the times is -- "The days of the major independent are gone.  Marquette cannot survive, let alone perform at a high level, without conference affiliation."

[spiral97]

Also add:

• "There is NO WAY Bo Ellis will get drafted with the way he's playing.
• "I hope Butch Lee DOES go pro - we'll be a better team without him next year.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I would add:

• Is Al McGuire so impressed with celebrity that he needs to constantly reference his great friendship with Dodgers manager Walter Alston?
• The fact that McGuire can't keep assistant coaches for more than a single season is proof positive that he's an unlikable control freak

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I would add:

• Is Al McGuire so impressed with celebrity that he needs to constantly reference his great friendship with Dodgers manager Walter Alston?
• The fact that McGuire can't keep assistant coaches for more than a single season is proof positive that he's an unlikable control freak

The point that everybody was making was that often times/most times fan blow things about coaches and teams out of propotion.

We all know Al was great, but he wasn't without his share of adversity and/or doubters.

I'm sure there was somebody like you back in 1977 who didn't like Al and told everybody he knew about it whenever he got the chance.

Do you believe that Al liked Crean? Or do you think that story is made up?

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I don't think the story is made up.

[NYWarrior]

I don't think the story is made up.

I concur.  Cords has talked openly about how TC openly embraced MU's heritage, esp Al........Deane, KO and Dukiet never did.

[ChicosBailBonds]

What story?


PRN...Didn't Al talk openly about his great relationship with the Senator, Herb Kohl?   

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't think the story is made up.

Ok, well then Crean may not be perfect, but if Al (who you seem to hold in extremely high regard) thinks Crean is the right man for the job, why do you doubt his every move?

[MarquetteVol]

On the way to South Bend this weekend, I played the Al McGuire interview conducted by the moderator of the Scout board. The interview took place in 1999, and maybe some of you heard it. Al didn't talk a lot about basketball, but he did discuss Crean, who was just hired. He said that in this day and age there are some programs that can't make the Final Four and coaches should avoid those jobs. He said Northwestern and a few other schools. He didn't mention us, but I really felt he was alluding to the fact that we would be in that group. He said he thought Crean would be very successful, but any sign of success couldn't happen until the third year since he had no scholarships to give (he was right on as 2002 was our breakout year). He also said that he thought Crean would be doing a great job if he could get us to the Sweet Sixteen once every four years.

I think it's interesting to look out how everyone's expectations have just skyrocketed since 2003. It's not a bad thing, but expectations are dangerous. Most of you need to remind yourselves that you are not the reason this basketball program has enjoyed recent success. Tom Crean is the reason. We play in the Big East conference, which is pretty damn exciting. But, with a great conference affiliation comes a certain degree of failure. You're going to lose games. In any given year, a great team may win 12 or 13 games in the Big East. But, you're talking about championship-level squads, and we have to all admit that we're not quite there yet. But, we're a hell of a lot closer than we were a decade ago. Did anyone think our Big East record would be 19-12 in the last two years? I mean, if Vegas had odds on that, they would have been something like 50-1 or higher.

I guess I'm just spewing the same pro-Crean propoganda, but I really think people need to stop and think hard about the state of affairs at MU. Remember where things were during the last two Deane years. Those were my first two years on campus and basketball games were B-O-R-I-N-G. The team was boring. Mike Deane calling three timeouts before the first media timeout was boring. This is no disrespect to the players of that era, because they did the best they could. I didn't follow the team through the Dukiet years, but if I did, I imagine I'd just be eternally grateful that we're a competitive team in a great conference. That's the end of my rant.

[ChicosBailBonds]

LOL....Mu Ra-ra's thread is 6 years too late

[tower912]

Some interesting stuff here.   Chico's and 84/Equalizer have been consistent in their defense of Crean.   Guns n Ammo is consistent in his defense of the head coach.  PRN has been consistent in his dislike of Crean. 

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Some interesting stuff here.   Chico's and 84/Equalizer have been consistent in their defense of Crean.   Guns n Ammo is consistent in his defense of the head coach.  PRN has been consistent in his dislike of Crean. 

and hoopaloop/Chico is still hoopaloopin'

[MarquetteDano]

Best is reading a Marquette84 post.  Strange because the posts went from attacking those who were negative to nowadays attacking those who are positive.  Hmm... what could be the difference between that team and this team for Marquette84?

Just can't seem to figure it out. 

[Gato78]

There was one helluva lot of criticism of Al that final year. Neary starting over Toone was the big complaint but Al was very stubborn about that. Al also checked out mentally during that season and blew off a lot of practices. Sometimes, the team did not see him from one game until the next--I think this was after they started losing. Many people said Hank was better and looked forward to the change at the end of the season. People forget this stuff because Al won it all. Al was a little crazy but he was a crazy genius. He would have made this board absolutely unreadable.

[ChicosBailBonds]

and hoopaloop/Chico is still hoopaloopin'

Nah.

I remember vividly starting a thread about 1977 and the internet, so when I saw today's thread I just had to find it.  Hoop will be at the DePaul game he tells me.  Why don't you guys get together?  Meanwhile, I missed you in Anaheim, would have been nice to say hello.  Maybe Old Spice next year.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This thread was one of the most epic things I have ever read

[mu72warrior]

Al didn't sneak out of town in the middle of the night, That's the difference between him and the blowhard in Bloomington

[Goose]

Gato

Not one person with inside knowledge or basketball knowledge ever were wishing for Hank era to start. Al checking out? Al checked in and out on a daily basis, but never lost sight of the upper five seats in the corner being filled.

Al would have made this board completely readable because never a day passed that he was not in the spotlight. Followed the team a long time like many on here, but back then or now I could not tell you a person that did not wait to hear or see what h did next.

[79Warrior]

There was one helluva lot of criticism of Al that final year. Neary starting over Toone was the big complaint but Al was very stubborn about that. Al also checked out mentally during that season and blew off a lot of practices. Sometimes, the team did not see him from one game until the next--I think this was after they started losing. Many people said Hank was better and looked forward to the change at the end of the season. People forget this stuff because Al won it all. Al was a little crazy but he was a crazy genius. He would have made this board absolutely unreadable.

I think the hiring of Hank was a huge mistake. Loved Hank, was on the Athletic Board with him. Marquette was a marquee program and Al should have been followed by a marquee hire. I know folks wont like this, but the beginning of the end started with Hank. He did absolutely nothing wrong, don't misunderstand my point. He just was not the guy to follow Al. Hank was not a band leader, Al was. We needed another maestro to run the program.

I can guarantee this board would be in full meltdown in 1974 with Al's two technicals against NC State.

[Goose]

79Warrior

Really think a meltdown in '74 after the technicals? You probably are right, but that one was stacked against us. Al pulled crazy stuff and even though in '76 it was more stacked against us I was more upset after Indiana game the NC State.

You point on Hank and the hire is right on target.

[tower912]

Hank following Al = Guthrie following Dean Smith.

[Lennys Tap]

Hank following Al = Guthrie following Dean Smith.

Arlo Guthrie following Woody.

[tower912]

Gary Cherone following Sammy Hagar/David Lee Roth?

[4everwarriors]

The bigger problem followin' Al's retirement lies with the administration. Completely dropped the ball followin' a National Championship. WTF?

[SuddenSam]

I don't think the story is made up.

Agreed, believe a bond was developed as Crean embraced Al/MUBB history unlike immediate predecessors.  Thought perhaps there was an emotional bond that would keep Crean at MU, but then something else got in the way....

[79Warrior]

79Warrior

Really think a meltdown in '74 after the technicals? You probably are right, but that one was stacked against us. Al pulled crazy stuff and even though in '76 it was more stacked against us I was more upset after Indiana game the NC State.

You point on Hank and the hire is right on target.

Goose,

I forgot about that Indiana game. Damn Benson.

[jsglow]

You couldn't be more right. All of Al's techniques are cheered and romanticized today, but let's face it: a lot of people hated him, including his own players....Al stood on the scorers table while people flipped him the finger!

One of the greatest moments in MU basketball history.  And I don't recall MU players hating him; only Badger fans and two Bucky twins' dad.   

[Silkk the Shaka]

Best is reading a Marquette84 post.  Strange because the posts went from attacking those who were negative to nowadays attacking those who are positive.  Hmm... what could be the difference between that team and this team for Marquette84?

Just can't seem to figure it out. 

That is hysterical. A complete 180

[tower912]

Not a complete 180.   Incredibly consistent.   Anything Crean does = good.   Anything Buzz does = find the negative angle.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Not a complete 180.   Incredibly consistent.   Anything Crean does = good.   Anything Buzz does = find the negative angle.   

Kind of the inverse of what happens here most of the time 

[willie warrior]

One of the greatest moments in MU basketball history.  And I don't recall MU players hating him; only Badger fans and two Bucky twins' dad.   

I followed MU very closely when McGuire arrived and through his great run. Yeah, there were a few that did not like him, mainly because he was a cocky, brash guy from the Bronx. But he brought in great players, kept Raymonds as his asst., worked the media, looked out for his guys, filled the seats, and brought huge success to a faded program. He was one of a kind and a great guy.

[Gato78]

I was tight with players, managers and many others inside the program that year. I guarantee what I wrote is true. I loved Al, he is one of my heroes. That last year was different than any other. Many had turned on Al that year. Remember he announced his retirement during the season. Everyone turned around during the tournament, of course. Bill Neary was so pissed off about all the criticism, when the team came back from the title game, he said at the rally on the mall "this is for all of you who booed me on senior night". That is how crazy that year was--people were so pissed at the Neary vs Toone debate, he was booed on senior night. That regular season seems conveniently forgotten.

Gato

Not one person with inside knowledge or basketball knowledge ever were wishing for Hank era to start. Al checking out? Al checked in and out on a daily basis, but never lost sight of the upper five seats in the corner being filled.

Al would have made this board completely readable because never a day passed that he was not in the spotlight. Followed the team a long time like many on here, but back then or now I could not tell you a person that did not wait to hear or see what h did next.

[Goose]

Gato

Will agree to disagree. Good thing about this board we can all voice are opinions. One thing we can agree on is Al was a hero to us.

[dgies9156]

I know I am late to the party on this one, but man, my mind was running 200 miles an hour at the thought of how Al would be treated if MU Scoop were around in the 1970s. I was there and while we loved Al, there were a few times when, well, we just wondered.

Some thoughts on things that already have been echoed:

1) Al would have been skewered 100 different ways to Sunday over the double technicals in the NC State Championship game. My recollection was he thought we were being screwed by referees (gee, not a totally uncommon thought in the McGuire years) but those technicals changed the nature of the game. I remember getting up from my seat after the second and thinking, "this one is over!"

2) Given the tenor of the times, which were far different from today (thank God), the racial make-up of our team would have been an issue in some quarters. We were way ahead of our time in being one of the few colorblind schools in America. That did not always play well among fans and supporters of college basketball

3) On a related topic, we played "street" ball -- aggressive and harsh -- rather than the softer fineness ball played by some schools, particularly SEC schools! Some people thought we, uhhh, cheated.

4) Starting Allie McGuire over George "Sugar' Frazier would have been the Topic de Jour for some time. Al was open about it but if you think we have debates now over who should be our starting guards, those are mild compared to what would have been in the McGuire/Frazier debate. Every time Allie missed a shot, someone would be screaming "Sugar would have made it!"

5) OK, it was 1969, but a McGuire years moment anyway. Poor Ric Cobb would have been toasted for missing a free throw against Purdue in the Mideast Regional championship in Madison. We lost the game in OT we should have won in regulation had Cobb hit a free-throw with two seconds left. Cobb, by the way, was a star on that team.

6) "Al can't win the big one." The corollary would be "Al Chokes!" We went to the NIT in 1970, lost to Ohio State in 1971, went no where after Chones left in 1972, lost early again in 1973, 1975 and couldn't beat NC State or Indiana in 1974 and 1976. Our break-through in 1977 was, to many, a fluke.

7) One of our ballplayers was cited for having a nickel bag on the front seat of "his" car in 1976 or 1977. Given the well commented recent incidents involving our athletes, campus security and the Milwaukee Police, only God knows what Scoopers would have said about this one!

8) When Larry McNeill turned pro, the blasting he would have received would have been exponentially greater than anything Vander Blue received.

9) Think of what the naysayers and Hiroshima advocates would have said when Maurice Lucas turned pro in September 1974. "Our season just went up in smokes...." or "There goes any chance at being anything..." Al had us in a much more restrictive NCAA tournament that year.

[dgies9156]

The bigger problem followin' Al's retirement lies with the administration. Completely dropped the ball followin' a National Championship. WTF?

We were drinking the Kool Aid so hard in 1977 we never saw it coming. I honestly think many of us thought we had a God-given right to be a Top 5 basketball team and that Donald Duck could coach the team to the NCAA Championship. We really took Al for granted and I think that was the tenor of the university as well.

Not to mention the fact that more than a few of the intellectual snobs around the university thought it appalling that the basketball coach was the university's highest paid employee and that Marquette was better known for basketball than for their particularly field.

I've said many times in here that Hank was a horrible mistake. He didn't get the job in 1964 and should not have had it in 1977. He was like Bill Guthridge at UNC (as another was trying to say). The greatest assistant in history but not a particularly good head coach. Sure Hank won, but the erosion in our program and in our university was not insignificant. The Jesuits figured that out too late. We're still recovering from it.

[MUfan12]

2) Given the tenor of the times, which were far different from today (thank God), the racial make-up of our team would have been an issue in some quarters. We were way ahead of our time in being one of the few colorblind schools in America. That did not always play well among fans and supporters of college basketball

Unfortunately, if you go around the state, this sentiment is still there towards MU.

[tower912]

Kind of the inverse of what happens here most of the time 

You must not have been reading the board over the last month if you believe that no one criticizes Buzz.   I would venture as far as to say that the criticism of Buzz in the last month has been harsher than the criticism of Crean when he was still MU's coach.  IMO, the vast majority of the scoop board supported Crean while he was coach here.   The vast majority of the board supports Buzz, but the criticism has been louder here than it was under Crean......until he left.  Then, a whole bunch of pent up, repressed frustrations came pouring out and became the narrative.   Which is still on-going, for better or worse.   

[Lennys Tap]

Kind of the inverse of what happens here most of the time 

Here's the fundamental difference. Those of us who love Buzz and despise Crean are honest and transparent about how we feel and why we feel that way. Those who to this day constantly defend TC while ripping Buzz at every opportunity (most notably you and 84) dishonestly portray yourselves as "fair and balanced", "I love both" guys.

[The Equalizer]

Here's the fundamental difference. Those of us who love Buzz and despise Crean are honest and transparent about how we feel and why we feel that way. Those who to this day constantly defend TC while ripping Buzz at every opportunity (most notably you and 84) dishonestly portray yourselves as "fair and balanced", "I love both" guys.

Let's compare:

Example 1:
Lenny's definition of honesty:
Suggesting that Buzz turned a couple of non-top 500 HS players (Butler & Crowder) into NBA draft picks, as you did earlier this week.

Lenny's definition of dishonesty:
Me pointing out that Buzz didn't get a hold of Crowder or Butler until they were JUCO All Americans (Crowder, the POY).

Example 2: 
Lenny's definition of honesty:
Repeating that the "cupboard was empty" the day Buzz took the job.

Lenny's definition of dishonesy:
Me listing every player on the roster (all 12) the day Buzz was hired, admitting that two (Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor) had left (or indicated they wanted to) becuase of the coaching change, pointing out that we were overcommitted (14 signed or returning before Crean left) and one would have to leave anyway.  Then pointing out that Buzz filled that slot and had a completely full roster (and completely balanced with 3 classes with 3 players and one with 4) within 10 days of being named coach.

I could go on all day with this warped sense of honesty.

Meanwhile, I have consistently complemented Buzz over the years for keeping MU at the level that Crean brought us. You refuse to admit that I've said that many times over the years.   You keep "accusing" me of some "pro-Crean" or "anti-Buzz" agenda--but then somehow overlook that accusation I say Buzz and Crean have performed nearly equally. 

Fact facts--you're the only one who's "anti-" anyone. And you fundamentally can't deal with anyone who would choose to deal with Crean and Buzz fairly and honestly. You admit you despise Crean, therefore you can't deal with any honest comparision.  You need to create false idoloty for Buzz so that he's never even vewed as so much as equal to the guy you dispise.

You have a hair-trigger reflex whenever anyone brings up deserved criticism of Buzz or disagrees with your idolization.  You never fail to a) bring up a comparison to Crean and b) personally attack anyone who doesn't agree that Buzz is superior in everythign he does.

Buzz not perfect, and much of what you and others praise him for is either based on false premises (see the two examples above) or hyperbole ("Buzz always has the team playing better in March").  Given that this is a message board and not Buzz's personal PR hotline, we shouldn't have to limit ourselves to only positive comments, and we should be able to point out the flaws in your "logic".

We should be able to question Buzz's inaiblity to consitently have freshmen ready to contribute in November or December.  We should be able to question his recruiting when he continues offers scholarships to Mbao, or Durley, or Roseboro or Fergueson while jettisoning Newbill. We should be able to question his in-game adjustments when we watch an entire half of basketball like the 2nd half of the Ohio State game, or a 17 point lead evaporate in minutes as we did against Louisville.

And we should be able to bring up thiese things without you trying to go through 9 years of Crean and try to bring up some equivalent ebarassing game as if that means we shouldn't talk about the here-and-now. 

And I bring these up because I'm first and foremost a Marquette fan--not first and foremost a Buzz fan. 

I am convinced that you care less about Marquette and more about Buzz.

[Aughnanure]

Another thread ruined?

SHOCKED

[tower912]

Sure, 84, that last line reeks of honesty and isn't the least bit hyperbolic.   You rock, dude.  

[Lennys Tap]

Let's compare:

Example 1:
Lenny's definition of honesty:
Suggesting that Buzz turned a couple of non-top 500 HS players (Butler & Crowder) into NBA draft picks, as you did earlier this week.

Lenny's definition of dishonesty:
Me pointing out that Buzz didn't get a hold of Crowder or Butler until they were JUCO All Americans (Crowder, the POY).

Example 2: 
Lenny's definition of honesty:
Repeating that the "cupboard was empty" the day Buzz took the job.

Lenny's definition of dishonesy:
Me listing every player on the roster (all 12) the day Buzz was hired, admitting that two (Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor) had left (or indicated they wanted to) becuase of the coaching change, pointing out that we were overcommitted (14 signed or returning before Crean left) and one would have to leave anyway.  Then pointing out that Buzz filled that slot and had a completely full roster (and completely balanced with 3 classes with 3 players and one with 4) within 10 days of being named coach.

I could go on all day with this warped sense of honesty.

Meanwhile, I have consistently complemented Buzz over the years for keeping MU at the level that Crean brought us. You refuse to admit that I've said that many times over the years.   You keep "accusing" me of some "pro-Crean" or "anti-Buzz" agenda--but then somehow overlook that accusation I say Buzz and Crean have performed nearly equally. 

Fact facts--you're the only one who's "anti-" anyone. And you fundamentally can't deal with anyone who would choose to deal with Crean and Buzz fairly and honestly. You admit you despise Crean, therefore you can't deal with any honest comparision.  You need to create false idoloty for Buzz so that he's never even vewed as so much as equal to the guy you dispise.

You have a hair-trigger reflex whenever anyone brings up deserved criticism of Buzz or disagrees with your idolization.  You never fail to a) bring up a comparison to Crean and b) personally attack anyone who doesn't agree that Buzz is superior in everythign he does.

Buzz not perfect, and much of what you and others praise him for is either based on false premises (see the two examples above) or hyperbole ("Buzz always has the team playing better in March").  Given that this is a message board and not Buzz's personal PR hotline, we shouldn't have to limit ourselves to only positive comments, and we should be able to point out the flaws in your "logic".

We should be able to question Buzz's inaiblity to consitently have freshmen ready to contribute in November or December.  We should be able to question his recruiting when he continues offers scholarships to Mbao, or Durley, or Roseboro or Fergueson while jettisoning Newbill. We should be able to question his in-game adjustments when we watch an entire half of basketball like the 2nd half of the Ohio State game, or a 17 point lead evaporate in minutes as we did against Louisville.

And we should be able to bring up thiese things without you trying to go through 9 years of Crean and try to bring up some equivalent ebarassing game as if that means we shouldn't talk about the here-and-now. 

And I bring these up because I'm first and foremost a Marquette fan--not first and foremost a Buzz fan. 

I am convinced that you care less about Marquette and more about Buzz.

Lies, more lies, followed by more damn lies - you wear me and nearly everyone else on the board out with an endless stream. I've supported MU basketball in all of its iterations since before you could read, write or think logically - skills you struggle with to this day. Go fight with somebody else here who thinks you're full of it - there are literally hundreds available.

[The Equalizer]

Go fight with somebody else here who thinks you're full of it - there are literally hundreds available.

Whoa.

I hadn't posted in this thread.  You called me out (by lying about me, btw).

Now you expect me to fight someone else?

[Lennys Tap]

Now you expect me to fight someone else?

You will soon. It's what you do.

[jmayer1]

Whoa.

I hadn't posted in this thread.  You called me out (by lying about me, btw).

Now you expect me to fight someone else?

Do you think the following statement is true or false?

You (and CBB) used to spend a lot of posts trying to disprove bad things said about the former coach. Now, you both spend a lot of posts trying to disprove good things said about the current coach.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Do you think the following statement is true or false?

You (and CBB) used to spend a lot of posts trying to disprove bad things said about the former coach. Now, you both spend a lot of posts trying to disprove good things said about the current coach.

As a non-member of the CBB/Equalizer/Hoopaloop conspiracy triangle I will say true about the first part (but someone has to be that voice here since everyone else is drunk on TC flavored haterade) and false about the 2nd one. Being grounded in their praise is not the same as disproving good things about Buzz.

We are all MU fans here fellas

[The Equalizer]

Do you think the following statement is true or false?

You (and CBB) used to spend a lot of posts trying to disprove bad things said about the former coach. Now, you both spend a lot of posts trying to disprove good things said about the current coach.

I don't think I try to disprove good about Buzz or bad about Crean--I try to disprove false things about either.  

For whatever reason, there is more false negative about Crean--both then and now--and far more false positive things (a good portion of them by the same handful of people) about Buzz.  

You can disagree if you want.  

But example after example, the guilty have tried to transfer the argument away from their own false statement on me personally for daring to disagree, inventing some "anti-Buzz agenda" as the boogeyman of choice.

Lenny's comment about Buzz coaching two Sub-500 HS kids (Butler & Crowder) to the NBA is a perfect example.

Look, Jae, Jimmy, Buzz, myself and anyone with a shred of intellectual honesty all know those kids made a hell of a lot of progress between the end of their HS senior season and the day they stepped foot on Marquette's campus.  

It hacks me off when Lenny ignores the development those kids made on their own--before Buzz started coaching them.  Yes, give Buzz credit for coaching them from JUCO AA to the NBA.  But he constantly gives false credit for the development those players from HS.  And that demeans all of the effort that they undertook on their own (or with their JUCO coaches) to get to the level where a D1 program would even recruit them.  

And his response when I point this out is to attack me for having some "anti-Buzz" agenda.  Because I won't give Buzz credit for what Jimmy and Jae already showed before they got to campus.

[The Equalizer]

As a non-member of the CBB/Equalizer/Hoopaloop conspiracy triangle I will say true about the first part (but someone has to be that voice here since everyone else is drunk on TC flavored haterade) and false about the 2nd one. Being grounded in their praise is not the same as disproving good things about Buzz.

We are all MU fans here fellas

Thank you.

[ChicosBailBonds]

As a non-member of the CBB/Equalizer/Hoopaloop conspiracy triangle I will say true about the first part (but someone has to be that voice here since everyone else is drunk on TC flavored haterade) and false about the 2nd one. Being grounded in their praise is not the same as disproving good things about Buzz.

We are all MU fans here fellas

Thank you, except for the part where you quoted jmayer so it kills my ignore of him. Glad to see he still has the conspiracy glasses on.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't think I try to disprove good about Buzz or bad about Crean--I try to disprove false things about either.  

For whatever reason, there is more false negative about Crean--both then and now--and far more false positive things (a good portion of them by the same handful of people) about Buzz.  

You can disagree if you want.  

But example after example, the guilty have tried to transfer the argument away from their own false statement on me personally for daring to disagree, inventing some "anti-Buzz agenda" as the boogeyman of choice.

Lenny's comment about Buzz coaching two Sub-500 HS kids (Butler & Crowder) to the NBA is a perfect example.

Look, Jae, Jimmy, Buzz, myself and anyone with a shred of intellectual honesty all know those kids made a hell of a lot of progress between the end of their HS senior season and the day they stepped foot on Marquette's campus.  

It hacks me off when Lenny ignores the development those kids made on their own--before Buzz started coaching them.  Yes, give Buzz credit for coaching them from JUCO AA to the NBA.  But he constantly gives false credit for the development those players from HS.  And that demeans all of the effort that they undertook on their own (or with their JUCO coaches) to get to the level where a D1 program would even recruit them.  

And his response when I point this out is to attack me for having some "anti-Buzz" agenda.  Because I won't give Buzz credit for what Jimmy and Jae already showed before they got to campus.

Well said.  Those kids had offers from many solid programs.  Doesn't make it anti-Buzz, just fills in the gap with some honest to goodness facts.  One would think from the original post Buzz made a basketball manager that couldn't lift a ball over his head into a NBA prospect.  No, actually Buzz did a very nice job of taking some very good basketball players and instilling the work ethic, confidence, etc to get to that professional level.  Just as TC did prior, and MD prior, etc, etc.

[jmayer1]

Thank you, except for the part where you quoted jmayer so it kills my ignore of him. Glad to see he still has the conspiracy glasses on.

That's cute. I'll take a small smidgen of satisfaction getting put on ignore by a guy who's been banned from multiple message boards, at least according to people here, for being a self-righteous troll.

[jmayer1]

I don't think I try to disprove good about Buzz or bad about Crean--I try to disprove false things about either.  

For whatever reason, there is more false negative about Crean--both then and now--and far more false positive things (a good portion of them by the same handful of people) about Buzz.  

You can disagree if you want.  

That's fair enough. We can agree to disagree.