Is Crean In Trouble?

[copious1218]

If MU charged $5 to sit in the balcony they would average 18k.

Not sure how many tickets were sold in this manner, but there were a number of sections in the corners of the 400s that went for $99 for the season.  With 17 home games last year that comes out to $5-$6/game. 

Student tickets were also $99 for the entire season last year IIRC.

That's at least 5,000 tix that were sold at less than $6 per game.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

By the way, did you see attendance numbers the other day?

MU went from 16,200 in 2009 to 15,617 in 2010.  A 3.6% drop

IU went from 14,331 in 2009 to 15,296 in 2010.  A 6.74% increase despite a horrible economy.

So, the horrible economy isn't an excuse for the 3.6% drop in attendance at MU?

It should be shocking that MU outperforms (in terms of attendance) any public BCS school. 5x the alums? 10x? Then again, I'm sure there are zero entertainment options besides IU basketball in the winter in Bloomington.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is not what Bloomington bargained for.

And you know this based on your conversations with President McRobbie, AD Glass, etc?   


What some of you continue to miss, and most shockingly Mr. Hayward \ Canadian Dimes who lives in the Hoosier state, is that not only to Hoosier fans want to win, but they want to win properly.  They were destroyed by what Sampson did.  They do not want to go down that path again.  This is why the comparisons to Kentucky are absurd.  IU is not looking for 1 and done players.  There are no quick fixes available to them.  There is an "Indiana way" which they are trying to get back to.

What has been made absolutely perfectly clear from McRobbie on down is NO DEALS WITH THE DEVIL to turn it around. 

[ATL MU Warrior]

By the way, did you see attendance numbers the other day?

MU went from 16,200 in 2009 to 15,617 in 2010.  A 3.6% drop

IU went from 14,331 in 2009 to 15,296 in 2010.  A 6.74% increase despite a horrible economy.

You are using these numbers to try and prove a point, but I think you are leaving out a lot of very important context.

MU was coming off a season (2009) where they were ranked in the Top 10, and were graduating three of the school's all time leading scorers.  They were entering a season where most folks thought they were going to struggle mightily.  This explains the drop in attendance.  I'm sure the schedule plays a role, but I don't have the time to look up who we played at home in 2009 and 2010 to see the differences...although we did have Bucky to town in 2009 so that's a good example of what I'm getting at.

IU was coming off a horrible season, with a lot of optimism for a much improved on-court product.  They didn't get that improved product, but I'm willing to bet that optimism is why attendance was up.  It would be interesting to ask the folks that bought the tickets if they thought they got their money's worth and if they had it to do over if they would have done the same thing.  

Two programs entering the 2010 season with very different expectations will probably produce a different dynamic in year-over-year ticket sales.

Just goes to show a person can find a number to "prove" anything.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So, the horrible economy isn't an excuse for the 3.6% drop in attendance at MU?

It should be shocking that MU outperforms (in terms of attendance) any public BCS school. 5x the alums? 10x? Then again, I'm sure there are zero entertainment options besides IU basketball in the winter in Bloomington.

Uhm, I said the other day the drop in MU attendance was LIKELY due to the economy, the expectations and the home schedule.  So I support what you are saying and have since the numbers came out.

My point was that despite the economy, despite having a really crappy team, despite coming off a 1 win conference season, IU put a lot more butts in the stand.  Like Crean or hate Crean, he had a way of doing that.

I mention it because our attendance is a lot more important to MU due to finances then it is to IU because of other revenue resources.

[ChicosBailBonds]

IU was coming off a horrible season, with a lot of optimism for a much improved on-court product.

Really....what optimism?  Where?  They were picked 10th in the Big Ten.  And last week I clearly stated why MU lost attendance....expectations, economy, lackluster home schedule.  I didn't disparage MU at all, in fact it wasn't surprising to me that MU dropped due to those circumstances.

I was more surprised at how well IU did.  I think you are overblowing the sense of optimism with IU this year, they were still picked near dead last.

The bigger point is that we need to keep our attendance up as it has a much bigger piece of the revenue pie for MU then IU's bball attendance does for IU.

[NersEllenson]

My point was that despite the economy, despite having a really crappy team, despite coming off a 1 win conference season, IU put a lot more butts in the stand.  Like Crean or hate Crean, he had a way of doing that.

Yes -  Crean's frantic pacing up and down the sideline, Diet Pepsi swigging routine, was enough of a sideshow to put my butt in the stands.  Had TC just been a stoic coach, no way would I have attended MU games.  His off the charts charisma was enough to get me in the building.

[Lennys Tap]

And you know this based on your conversations with President McRobbie, AD Glass, etc?   


What some of you continue to miss, and most shockingly Mr. Hayward \ Canadian Dimes who lives in the Hoosier state, is that not only to Hoosier fans want to win, but they want to win properly.  They were destroyed by what Sampson did.  They do not want to go down that path again.  This is why the comparisons to Kentucky are absurd.  IU is not looking for 1 and done players.  There are no quick fixes available to them.  There is an "Indiana way" which they are trying to get back to.

What has been made absolutely perfectly clear from McRobbie on down is NO DEALS WITH THE DEVIL to turn it around. 

Hoosier fans (and I suppose the IU administration) were destroyed when Kelvin Sampson did EXACTLY THE SAME THING that he did at Oklahoma? I know the term "hoosier" is sometimes used to describe a gullible rube but that's just too much. Maybe we should cry for the Memphis fans stunned by the duplicitous ways of John Calipari.

Regarding "one and done" types, Crean was all over Irving, Selby, Kendrick and others. He just couldn't close the deal. But keep moving the goal posts closer. Maybe to some an extra point will look like a 55 yd field goal.

[PE8983]

While you are quick to point out IU's increased attendance last year, how was it his 1st year vs. Sampson's last year?

Also, if IU wanted to do things only the right way, why did they hire Sampson in the first place?  They knew he had been caught by the NCAA regarding his phone calls to recruits, yet still hired him.  Then, to top it off, they failed to monitor him.  Then, they claimed ignorance after he's caught again.

[Tugg Speedman]

What some of you continue to miss, and most shockingly Mr. Hayward \ Canadian Dimes who lives in the Hoosier state, is that not only to Hoosier fans want to win, but they want to win properly. 

I don't need to hear Glass' propaganda/spin to know they think they are a rebuilding an elite program and none of the recruits Crean is getting (save maybe Creek) are the quality that need to compete with MSU, OSU, IL, Wisc and/or Purdue.  I can't even say they are years away from getting to this level because they are simply not getting the horses to compete at this level.  You tell me when they will finally land a 5-star McDonald AA type and then we can extrapolate how long it will take for them to overtake MSU.

Patient for something that is not working is rationalizing a failure.  Chicos, you were wrong about hiring Buzz and now your book-ending that mistake by defending Crean when it is clearly not working (again because he not getting the quality of recruit IU expects.)

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yes -  Crean's frantic pacing up and down the sideline, Diet Pepsi swigging routine, was enough of a sideshow to put my butt in the stands.  Had TC just been a stoic coach, no way would I have attended MU games.  His off the charts charisma was enough to get me in the building.

Since you're in Texas, I would guess it's probably tough to get you into any building at MU, regardless of who is clapping on the sidelines or sweating through his suit.

Maybe the average fans in Milwaukee and Bloomington\Indy are just not as smart as you can cannot ignore his siren song?  Maybe, by sheer coincidence, the schools he's at, attendance seems to increase rather dramatically because of all the mouth breathers out there.  I don't know, but I hope MU can turn it back around this year and start on a positive trend again.  With Wisconsin coming in to play MU, another year of NCAA tournament participation, Vander Blue coming, should be an increase at the turnstyles one would think.

[NersEllenson]

Since you're in Texas, I would guess it's probably tough to get you into any building at MU, regardless of who is clapping on the sidelines or sweating through his suit.

Maybe the average fans in Milwaukee and Bloomington\Indy are just not as smart as you can cannot ignore his siren song?  Maybe, by sheer coincidence, the schools he's at, attendance seems to increase rather dramatically because of all the mouth breathers out there.  I don't know, but I hope MU can turn it back around this year and start on a positive trend again.  With Wisconsin coming in to play MU, another year of NCAA tournament participation, Vander Blue coming, should be an increase at the turnstyles one would think.

I think you missed the point Chicos - the point was people don't attend basketball games to watch the coach, they go watch the quality of the players.  As you've said, we had 4 of MU's Top 10 players compliments of Tom Crean playing in the 2008-2009 season - most fans weren't expecting anywhere near the caliber/quality of performance out of last year's team - plus after the early conference season heart breakers, and some here claiming we wouldn't make the NIT after the DePaul loss...the team didn't draw quite as well as in Buzz's first year...maybe due to record, perceived quality of talent on the team, scheduling quirks, no home UW game, etc.  This really is kind of a silly point to be debating, but I do realize you will do anything to try to illustrate a positive of Tom Crean at IU thus far, as there haven't been too many highlights.

[ChicosBailBonds]

While you are quick to point out IU's increased attendance last year, how was it his 1st year vs. Sampson's last year?

Also, if IU wanted to do things only the right way, why did they hire Sampson in the first place?  They knew he had been caught by the NCAA regarding his phone calls to recruits, yet still hired him.  Then, to top it off, they failed to monitor him.  Then, they claimed ignorance after he's caught again.

IU took a shortcut and all those people involved in that shortcut (sans one) have been fired.  They took a chance and it backfired badly for them.  This is why it's laughable to read what some people here are saying that IU would take Caliprari in a second. Uhm, no they wouldn't. 

IU blew it hiring Sampson and they are paying dearly for it.  This is also why they have a LOOONNNNGGGG leash in terms of getting things back on track and any comparison to schools like Kentucky, etc are beyond ridiculous.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Bottonline- IU needs to start winning this year. Maybe NIT

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think you missed the point Chicos - the point was people don't attend basketball games to watch the coach, they go watch the quality of the players.  As you've said, we had 4 of MU's Top 10 players compliments of Tom Crean playing in the 2008-2009 season - most fans weren't expecting anywhere near the caliber/quality of performance out of last year's team - plus after the early conference season heart breakers, and some here claiming we wouldn't make the NIT after the DePaul loss...the team didn't draw quite as well as in Buzz's first year...maybe due to record, perceived quality of talent on the team, scheduling quirks, no home UW game, etc.  This really is kind of a silly point to be debating, but I do realize you will do anything to try to illustrate a positive of Tom Crean at IU thus far, as there haven't been too many highlights.

I got the point entirely.  You are correct, they are not there to watch the coach, well, at least in most cases, but the coach plays a more important role in college hoops than the pros.  Watching Knight on the sideline was a treat.  Players come and go every few years so the coach is often the face of the program, unlike the pros where the players are clearly the face.

I think what you are missing is my point, which is by luck or skill or PR or blind stupidity, attendance was pretty damn good when Crean was the coach at MU.  In fact, it was the best in MU history.  Now, plenty of jokes have been made about this which is fine, but when you're a basketball only school and have limited revenues, attendance is hugely important.  I think a lot of Milwaukee fans are starting to latch on to Buzz and that may help drive attendance.  After his dancing episode that went viral, I assure you that some fans will actually go to see Buzz in action in the hopes he does something a bit nuts.  That's how some fans are.

A the end of the day, we need to keep PAID attendance flat or increasing if at all possible.  It is certainly plausible that our down tick in attendance was due to less freebies given out, if so I'm not worried at all.  It's possible that our down tick were low revenue tickets, again, if so, not the end of the world.  But attendance is important for MU hoops, it's a big chunk of making the world go round.

[Golden Avalanche]

Are you nuts?? They pay him 2mm to be a bridge coach? You guys have your heads so far up you respective as### it IS funny.

Best words of an interminably ludicrous thread.

[NersEllenson]

I got the point entirely.  You are correct, they are not there to watch the coach, well, at least in most cases, but the coach plays a more important role in college hoops than the pros.  Watching Knight on the sideline was a treat.  Players come and go every few years so the coach is often the face of the program, unlike the pros where the players are clearly the face.

I think what you are missing is my point, which is by luck or skill or PR or blind stupidity, attendance was pretty damn good when Crean was the coach at MU.  In fact, it was the best in MU history.  Now, plenty of jokes have been made about this which is fine, but when you're a basketball only school and have limited revenues, attendance is hugely important.  I think a lot of Milwaukee fans are starting to latch on to Buzz and that may help drive attendance.  After his dancing episode that went viral, I assure you that some fans will actually go to see Buzz in action in the hopes he does something a bit nuts.  That's how some fans are.

A the end of the day, we need to keep PAID attendance flat or increasing if at all possible.  It is certainly plausible that our down tick in attendance was due to less freebies given out, if so I'm not worried at all.  It's possible that our down tick were low revenue tickets, again, if so, not the end of the world.  But attendance is important for MU hoops, it's a big chunk of making the world go round.

Agree with your post in its entirety.  Crean did a great job promoting the program, and improving the level of the program from where Mike Deane tanked it to.....Crean did great things for the program..never denied that, but also feel there were a number of empty recruiting classes after the Final Four, which really hurt our ability to become a consisten Sweet 16 type of program.  All of this said, I'm jst a much bigger Buzz fan and think he will take this thing higher..assuming he stays for 9 years.

[PE8983]

"They took a chance and it backfired badly for them.  This is why it's laughable to read what some people here are saying that IU would take Caliprari in a second. Uhm, no they wouldn't."

A "chance".  Taking a chance is hiring an unproven coach like MU did with Buzz, or Butler did with Brad Stevens.  IU hired a KNOWN cheater, but did so because he was a successful coach.  They knew it when they brought him in.  Then they did nothing to negate the exact things he got busted for at the previous program.  That's the only thing IU and their fans regret - that is the getting busted part and the fact that now they are looked at as a cheating type program.

Calipari, who may seem slimey, has never been nailed for anything.  He's no saint, but to say IU would not have taken someone who's never been busted for anything, but would bring in a known cheater seems like an untruth.     

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos, you were wrong about hiring Buzz and now your book-ending that mistake by defending Crean when it is clearly not working (again because he not getting the quality of recruit IU expects.)

Maybe you should go back and read what I said in April, 2 years ago about hiring Buzz.  I NEVER EVER said Buzz should not be hired, Please, do a search.  I said and will continue to say that Buzz could have been had a week, two weeks later.  There was no reason to hire him within 48 to 72 hours.  THAT IS WHAT I SAID.  I also, clearly, said that the Buzz may be the right guy and a solid hire but that MU should try harder to get a more established coach rather than taking the risk.  THAT IS WHAT I SAID. 


I have no idea if Crean will work out at IU, nor do you.  The only people that matter are those making the decisions at Indiana University.

[ChicosBailBonds]

"They took a chance and it backfired badly for them.  This is why it's laughable to read what some people here are saying that IU would take Caliprari in a second. Uhm, no they wouldn't."

A "chance".  Taking a chance is hiring an unproven coach like MU did with Buzz, or Butler did with Brad Stevens.  IU hired a KNOWN cheater, but did so because he was a successful coach.  They knew it when they brought him in.  Then they did nothing to negate the exact things he got busted for at the previous program.  That's the only thing IU and their fans regret - that is the getting busted part and the fact that now they are looked at as a cheating type program.

Calipari, who may seem slimey, has never been nailed for anything.  He's no saint, but to say IU would not have taken someone who's never been busted for anything, but would bring in a known cheater seems like an untruth.     

You need a timeline apparently....there is no untruth at all to what I'm saying.


Some people believe in giving people a second chance.  His violations at Oklahoma were classified as minor per the NCAA.  I'd call that taking a chance.  The difference is that you have your timeline totally screwed up or are ignoring it.

Sampson was hired by Indiana on March 29, 2006.  At that time, OU was under investigation but had not been found guilty of any transgressions.  Yes, IU took a chance because they were hiring someone that potentially was a problem, but as of yet was not punished for anything.  It wasn't until after he was at IU that OU was put on probation.  You make it sound like he was already convicted and then they hired him, not true at all.  So IU never hired a coach that had put a school on probation prior to being hired, this is why they would NOT hire Coach Cal.

Listen, I like Coach Cal.  Heard him give a presentation a few weeks ago to our employees.  Very interesting guy, goes to church every morning, is absolutely beloved by his players.  He made a few comments that no one ever hear's his side of the story, only what you read in the press.  There is certainly truth to that.  But at the end of the day, everywhere Coach Cal has gone, they've been put not just on probation but serious probation. 

Back to the timeline, Coach Cal had his team (UMASS) on probation after he left.  Knowing this fact, IU would NEVER hire someone like that knowing this in advance.  This is different than Sampson who was hired BEFORE OU was put on probation.  A distinction of great importance.

Nevertheless, a bad hire by IU knowing full well that Sampson was tainted and could be put on probation.  The embarrassment at the school after the OU sanctions came down were felt throughout the university, who prides itself on doing things a certain way.  There's a reason that just about everyone involved with the Sampson hire is long gone.

[Pakuni]

Maybe you should go back and read what I said in April, 2 years ago about hiring Buzz.  I NEVER EVER said Buzz should not be hired, Please, do a search.  I said and will continue to say that Buzz could have been had a week, two weeks later.  There was no reason to hire him within 48 to 72 hours.  THAT IS WHAT I SAID.  I also, clearly, said that the Buzz may be the right guy and a solid hire but that MU should try harder to get a more established coach rather than taking the risk.  THAT IS WHAT I SAID. 


I have no idea if Crean will work out at IU, nor do you.  The only people that matter are those making the decisions at Indiana University.

With all due respect, despote what your crystal ball may have told you at the time, how could you possibly have known Buzz could have been hired two weeks later. Are you suggesting that there simply was no way another program - Indiana or Kentucky, for example - couldn't have landed him with a lucrative assistant deal? Are you saying that you know for certain he would have waited patiently and happily for two weeks or more as Plan K while MU tried to land numerous other guys? Do you know that Buzz would even have wanted to go to a place where he was viewed as the coach of last resort?
Perhaps he would have.
I have no idea.
Neither do you.

What we do know is that the people in power at MU felt very comfortable with Buzz and after reaching out to a couple other possible candidates - and being turned down - they went with who they felt was best suited for the job. There was, in their mind, no reason to wait two more weeks or contact 10 other guys. The guy they wanted already was there.
So far there's no reason to believe they were wrong, and certainly no reason to believe MU would be any better off had they waited.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

My point was that despite the economy, despite having a really crappy team, despite coming off a 1 win conference season, IU put a lot more butts in the stand.  Like Crean or hate Crean, he had a way of doing that.

Chicos -- You are out of your freaking mind. Completely off the rails. We know as an ironclad fact (another annoying thing about this douche bag) that he ROUTINELY inflated numbers at MU...especially when ESPN was in the house. Anybody recall the "largest crowd to watch a college basketball game in Wisconsin" schtick? It was unseemly as hell, especially when the Gameday crew were setup, swallowing 50 seats or so. This is a guy who'd literally tell the Bradley Center music guy when to queue up "Cotton Eyed Joe" -- he's a paranoid, micromanager.

You are smarter than that.

I cannot wait until Crean gets fired and tries to make inroads about getting back in good graces at MU. And I cannot wait for the day that he makes an appearance at the BC. I will boo the tan right off his swollen, defeated body.

[Lennys Tap]

With all due respect, despote what your crystal ball may have told you at the time, how could you possibly have known Buzz could have been hired two weeks later. Are you suggesting that there simply was no way another program - Indiana or Kentucky, for example - couldn't have landed him with a lucrative assistant deal? Are you saying that you know for certain he would have waited patiently and happily for two weeks or more as Plan K while MU tried to land numerous other guys? Do you know that Buzz would even have wanted to go to a place where he was viewed as the coach of last resort?
Perhaps he would have.
I have no idea.
Neither do you.


What we do know is that the people in power at MU felt very comfortable with Buzz and after reaching out to a couple other possible candidates - and being turned down - they went with who they felt was best suited for the job. There was, in their mind, no reason to wait two more weeks or contact 10 other guys. The guy they wanted already was there.
So far there's no reason to believe they were wrong, and certainly no reason to believe MU would be any better off had they waited.

How can you say this? Doesn't Chicos have a degree in mindreading?

[Lennys Tap]

Maybe you should go back and read what I said in April, 2 years ago about hiring Buzz.  I NEVER EVER said Buzz should not be hired, Please, do a search.  I said and will continue to say that Buzz could have been had a week, two weeks later.  There was no reason to hire him within 48 to 72 hours.  THAT IS WHAT I SAID.  I also, clearly, said that the Buzz may be the right guy and a solid hire but that MU should try harder to get a more established coach rather than taking the risk.  THAT IS WHAT I SAID. 


I have no idea if Crean will work out at IU, nor do you.  The only people that matter are those making the decisions at Indiana University.

Pakuni has already blown up the idea that you knew (divined?) that Buzz would have been available/interested a week or two later so let's focus on your next statement - "that MU should try harder to get a more established coach rather than taking the risk" on Buzz. So while you never actually said Buzz should not be hired, you did say that he should only be hired if MU was unable to find an "established coach" anywhere to take the job. In other words, as a last resort. A ringing endorsement if I've ever heard one.

[ChicosBailBonds]

With all due respect, despote what your crystal ball may have told you at the time, how could you possibly have known Buzz could have been hired two weeks later. Are you suggesting that there simply was no way another program - Indiana or Kentucky, for example - couldn't have landed him with a lucrative assistant deal? Are you saying that you know for certain he would have waited patiently and happily for two weeks or more as Plan K while MU tried to land numerous other guys? Do you know that Buzz would even have wanted to go to a place where he was viewed as the coach of last resort?
Perhaps he would have.
I have no idea.
Neither do you.

What we do know is that the people in power at MU felt very comfortable with Buzz and after reaching out to a couple other possible candidates - and being turned down - they went with who they felt was best suited for the job. There was, in their mind, no reason to wait two more weeks or contact 10 other guys. The guy they wanted already was there.
So far there's no reason to believe they were wrong, and certainly no reason to believe MU would be any better off had they waited.

Oh please, an assistant coach who had one season as a head coach with a losing record and walked out on the job a few months before the 2nd season started wasn't going to be there?  Stop.  Of course he would have been.  He was either going to go with Crean to IU or with Billy, but they would both have waited if he said he's one of the candidates for the head gig at MU.  He had zero head coaching jobs and could have been had a week or two later, to  suggest anything else is completely ridiculous.


Lenny, you are incorrect...as usual.  At least you were intellectually honest to admit that I never said he shouldn't be hired, unlike the other poster in this thread.  It's all there in the search functionality.  I wanted MU to go after an established coach with some pedigree first.  If that didn't work out, then Buzz would be fine.  It doesn't matter if it's a ringing endorsement or not, I was tired of MU constantly going after risks when they finally were in a position to make an effort for a coach that wasn't a risk.  For whatever reason, MU decided that after Miller and Bennett, that was it, God forbid you talk to anyone else.  I felt MU could have taken a week or two and done that, if it didn't work out, Buzz wasn't going anywhere and to suggest he would have been somewhere else is one of the stupidest arguments I've seen on this board.  Would he have ANY JOB that would be better than the MU head coaching job at that point in his career?  HELL NO, so he wasn't going anywhere.  Even if he did take a gig with Crean at IU, it's not like he couldn't become the MU coach two weeks later.  It's a preposterous notion on your part and Pakuni's.