Is Crean In Trouble?

[El Duderino]

MU had an All Big East first team pre-season selection (Hayward).  IU, no players even close.

MU had a player that would earn Honorable Mention All Big East player (Butler). IU, maybe if their best player didn't blow out his leg before the Big Ten season started.

MU had Wisconsin High School player of the Year with Maymon (before transferring).  IU, no players that fit that bill.

MU had an All American JUCO first team in DJO.

I could go on.  One team had very good players coming back, the other team is still stacked with freshmen and sophomores, mostly, that they had to take flyers on just to fill a team.  Players, with the exception of 5 kids, probably should be in the MAC or lower but they needed warm bodies to compete.

That's why I asked if it was in teal.  There were posters here that picked MU for the NCAAs and were right.  There was not a person in America that picked IU for the NCAAs. 

I doubt you could find one expert, one computer poll, one ranking system anywhere in the universe that predicted IU would be better than MU last year and the reason was pretty simple, MU had a lot more raw material to work with than IU did.

Thus, I asked if the question was in teal.  Apparently, it wasn't.

I think it's true that some here simply just under-appreciate what Crean did overall for the program and i'd agree that Buzz had a better situation going into this year than Crean did, but you also aren't being fair by failing to state a huge factor in why Buzz had a better situation.

Buzz brought in two JUCO guys in Butler/DJO that were major factors in the success of this years Marquette team which greatly exceeded the preseason beliefs most had for the team. On the flip side, the two JUCO guys that Crean brought in to IU, Devin Dumes and Tijan Jobe, they weren't productive at all for Crean this year.

If you just flipped only those 4 guys and instead Crean landed Butler/DJO as his recruits while Buzz had to win with Dumes/Jobe, you'd have seen the records for both teams be quite different. The ability of Buzz to land Butler/DJO was huge for him and the program, while Crean getting much less in Dumes/Jobe is a huge factor in why Buzz had much more success than Crean had. If Buzz had inherited Butler/DJO, your argument would have more teeth, but Buzz went and got them while Crean largely whiffed in comparison with the two JUCO guys he went and got.

[El Duderino]

Really....what optimism?  Where?  They were picked 10th in the Big Ten.  And last week I clearly stated why MU lost attendance....expectations, economy, lackluster home schedule.  I didn't disparage MU at all, in fact it wasn't surprising to me that MU dropped due to those circumstances.

I was more surprised at how well IU did.  I think you are overblowing the sense of optimism with IU this year, they were still picked near dead last.

Let's assume you're right that there were pretty low of expectations among the majority of IU fans for last year's team.

What would be the reason for those quite low levels of optimism? Wouldn't that be that the IU fans looked at the roster Cream assembled and found little reason to be excited? If then say IU fans go into this coming season with again pretty low of expectations and excitement, wouldn't that also be because the fans look at the roster Crean has assembled and it doesn't excite them much?

The reasons that fans of any college program generally get excited and have optimism is if they either think the team that year likely has enough good players to at least get into the NCAA Tournament or if a team will be young that thus might be inconsistent, but if it has some really high quality young recruits/talent, that will also have fans looking forward to the upcoming season as is the case for Marquette's incoming recruiting class.

For right now at least, the reason Crean hasn't been able to raise the optimism more is that he's largely failed at both things i mentioned. IU fans have looked at the teams he's put together and not only saw little to no reason those teams would win, Crean also hasn't had enough of the kind of recruiting successes that could still keep fans excited even if those fans felt some inconsistency could come along with the high level recruiting classes. So if you were a big IU fan and looked at the players left over for this year coupled with his latest recruiting class, what's exactly there to get overly excited about?

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I can't believe some people still cannot seperate the process from the results, for hiring of HC.

The process was HORRENDOUS and was the same type of process that got Marquette in trouble with this Dean fiasco. Sometimes fate finds a way to treat Marquette in spite of itself.

I'm super duper glad Buzz is working out well. But that doesn't mean hiring a one-year assistant coach after 48 hours of searching is the best way to find a new head coach. Cottingham either thinks Marquette isn't a destiny job or was too incompetent to call more than three people for the position.

Relatedly, people have to stop this obnoxious continuum of Buzz good, Crean evil versus Buzz bad, Crean good. One does not depend on the other (though I do think Crean was evil...).

[Blackhat]

I can't believe some people still cannot seperate the process from the results, for hiring of HC.

The process was HORRENDOUS and was the same type of process that got Marquette in trouble with this Dean fiasco. Sometimes fate finds a way to treat Marquette in spite of itself.

I'm super duper glad Buzz is working out well. But that doesn't mean hiring a one-year assistant coach after 48 hours of searching is the best way to find a new head coach. Cottingham either thinks Marquette isn't a destiny job or was too incompetent to call more than three people for the position.

Relatedly, people have to stop this obnoxious continuum of Buzz good, Crean evil versus Buzz bad, Crean good. One does not depend on the other (though I do think Crean was evil...).

*This is a tiresome debate and I probably shouldn't respond but what the hell I got some down time and am bored.*

Cottingham WANTED BUZZ WILLIAMS TO BE COACH.    Cottingham knew Buzz was a hard worker and a good recruiter and Cottingham put(s) a premium on recruiting.  

That's why there was only a 48 hr search, he already knew the man he wanted and observed him for over a year....why wait two weeks when you have the man you want.  

If Cottingham wasn't fully sold on Buzz I'm sure he would have interviewed the trolley of mid major coaches.  But he was.

As for the process I wholly disagree.   As long as you hire a competent leader in your AD man you let him/her drive the ship in hirings, one man runs the "process" and it follows his timeline, 1 hr, 50 hrs, 5000 hrs.  

[PE8983]

The bottom line is that everybody knew what Sampson was getting busted for at Oklahoma, yet IU hired him.  They didn't wait until the penalties were finalized like they could have.  They could have done their due diligence and dug deep down into this.  They could have put a clause in his contract that if he was officially busted by the NCAA, that his contract would be terminated and he would be fired immediately.  That didn't happen.  If they were so concerned about being a squeaky clean program like you think they are, they wouldn't have hired him - period.  There are plenty of good coaches out there who aren't on the NCAA police blotter.  It shouldn't be too difficult to bring one to the type of high profile top 10 program that IU is.  Why does IU have to take "a chance" on a cheater, or as you say, one who is about to get busted for cheating?  They wanted a high profile successful coach that was winning.  Winning was the bottom line.  Otherwise, they wouldn't have hired someone who had issues like he did.  

If there had another high profile coach interested in the job, say like Calipari (who's never been busted for anything),  they would have hired him in a heartbeat.  Maybe not after Sampson due to the IU's impending NCAA sanctions, but certainly when Sampson was hired.  Calipari didn't put UMass on probation - Marcus Camby did.  He didn't put Memphis on probation - Derrick Rose did.  God, I can't believe I'm actually defending Calipari.  The bottom line is Sampson put Oklahoma on probation - nobody else.  He was knowingly violating NCAA rules, and then IU did nothing to negate it from happening at their school.  

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

The process was HORRENDOUS and was the same type of process that got Marquette in trouble with this Dean fiasco. Sometimes fate finds a way to treat Marquette in spite of itself.

I'm super duper glad Buzz is working out well. But that doesn't mean hiring a one-year assistant coach after 48 hours of searching is the best way to find a new head coach. Cottingham either thinks Marquette isn't a destiny job or was too incompetent to call more than three people for the position.

Truer words have never been spoken. Somebody put it well the other day, it appears we struck oil with Buzz but the hiring process was an embarrassment. And frankly, it was apparent during his first year on the job with a couple of behavioral incidents that he wasn't completely ready. Year 2 was MUCH, MUCH better from a comportment point of view.

[MUfan12]

Truer words have never been spoken. Somebody put it well the other day, it appears we struck oil with Buzz but the hiring process was an embarrassment. And frankly, it was apparent during his first year on the job with a couple of behavioral incidents that he wasn't completely ready. Year 2 was MUCH, MUCH better from a comportment point of view.

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. My question would be this. Would you rather have a search process like Oregon's, with high profile coaches resisting their advances publicly?

I guess I want to know how you guys know that bigger names weren't called in private, and declined.

[mu-rara]

Oh please, an assistant coach who had one season as a head coach with a losing record and walked out on the job a few months before the 2nd season started wasn't going to be there? 

This is the most disingenuous statement you've ever made Chicos. 

We all know what was going on at UNO. He did NOT walk out.  UNO was not keeping promises, as is well documented.  They were on a path to extinction.  Buzz has proven to be a man of great integrity, as those who have crossed his path in MKE all know.   

[Tugg Speedman]

The process was HORRENDOUS and was the same type of process that got Marquette in trouble with this Dean fiasco. Sometimes fate finds a way to treat Marquette in spite of itself.

I'm super duper glad Buzz is working out well. But that doesn't mean hiring a one-year assistant coach after 48 hours of searching is the best way to find a new head coach. Cottingham either thinks Marquette isn't a destiny job or was too incompetent to call more than three people for the position.

Could it be that Cottingham believed in Buzz all along and was able to see what he eventually became?  Why was it just dumb luck?  Remember that Cottingham was also on the line with the Buzz hire.  If Buzz failed, Cottingham's seat would have be at risk as well.

---

When something Cottingham does doesn't work out, he is stupid.  When something Cottingham does actually works out, he got lucky but let's criticize the process.

MU is 120 year old institution, is their a documented case of an AD doing something correctly?

[Canadian Dimes]

I agree everyone in the coaching business knew Buzz Williams was an up and comer.  Gillespie wanted him at UK, Crean wanted him at MU.  He was one of the most highly sought after assistant coaches in the country with a great track record of signing stud recruits.  cottingham had a 1 year trial in which he saw him and what he was all about.  After Mu could not get the two or three wish list guys Buzz was a no brainer.  Simple as that and really a no brainer. 

Secondly the poster that compared the Buzz hiring to Deane is truly a moron.  Mike Deane had doen areally good job at Siena.  He as a 14 seed had won an NCaa game and also gone to the NIT finals.  He put together some really good seasons.  No different than Mike Rice, or Thad Matta or Skip Prosser.  Etc. he had had some really good seasons and was the hot mid major coach du jour.  completely different and completely dumb, what were you in diapers when MU hired Deane?

[Tugg Speedman]

Truer words have never been spoken. Somebody put it well the other day, it appears we struck oil with Buzz but the hiring process was an embarrassment. And frankly, it was apparent during his first year on the job with a couple of behavioral incidents that he wasn't completely ready. Year 2 was MUCH, MUCH better from a comportment point of view.

If we handled it like DePaul's hiring of Parnell, you'd be even more critical.  Maybe we could have interviewed Isiah two years ago.  Would that have made things better?

What you wanted was unrealistic.  You wanted a bunch of retreads lining up to crawl over cut glass to get the job.  It doesn't work that way ... anywhere.

In the end we handle the process like Pitt used to hire Dixon?  Worked for them, worked for us.  Quickly promoting an assistant can work. Besides it's what we do ... See Raymonds, see Majerus.  Had we stuck with Fat Rick long enough, would we have gotten the Utah version?

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. My question would be this. Would you rather have a search process like Oregon's, with high profile coaches resisting their advances publicly?

I guess I want to know how you guys know that bigger names weren't called in private, and declined.

A very fair question. I think something of this nature happened, IIRC. Cottingham called three coaches (can't remember which three) during the first 48 hours after Crean left, and then "settled" on Buzz.

I'm delighted by Buzz thusfar, but 95 times out of 100, in the situation where 3 more established coaches have turned down a school in only 48 hours after the search begins, it would be prudent to continue seeking more established candidates before "settling" (to use too loaded a word, but you get my point) with the one year assistant coach. Fortunately, we seem so far to have hit one out of the five times out of 100 that such a scenario bears success.

[NersEllenson]

Truer words have never been spoken. Somebody put it well the other day, it appears we struck oil with Buzz but the hiring process was an embarrassment. And frankly, it was apparent during his first year on the job with a couple of behavioral incidents that he wasn't completely ready. Year 2 was MUCH, MUCH better from a comportment point of view.

Some fans put too much emphasis on "behavioral incidents," of a head coach - so long as they don't become Bobby Knight-like where they involve violence, chair throwing, excessive profanity, or behave in a surly fashion in a press conference - I don't see the big deal??  I kind of like a little passion and fire out of a coach.  I assume you are referencing Buzz's behavior at the end of the Mizzou game in the NCAA in Year 1?  Take a minute and think how upset we as fan's can get over an MU loss - now amplify that by about 100 times - that's probably the level of emotion coaches feel with regard to their team..considering how much time, effort and energy they invest in recruiting/coaching/developing these players and game plans.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Some fans put too much emphasis on "behavioral incidents," of a head coach - so long as they don't become Bobby Knight-like where they involve violence, chair throwing, excessive profanity, or behave in a surly fashion in a press conference - I don't see the big deal??  I kind of like a little passion and fire out of a coach.  I assume you are referencing Buzz's behavior at the end of the Mizzou game in the NCAA in Year 1?  Take a minute and think how upset we as fan's can get over an MU loss - now amplify that by about 100 times - that's probably the level of emotion coaches feel with regard to their team..considering how much time, effort and energy they invest in recruiting/coaching/developing these players and game plans.

I think he was alluding to the Jimmy Mac thing.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I can't believe some people still cannot seperate the process from the results, for hiring of HC.

The process was HORRENDOUS and was the same type of process that got Marquette in trouble with this Dean fiasco. Sometimes fate finds a way to treat Marquette in spite of itself.

I'm super duper glad Buzz is working out well. But that doesn't mean hiring a one-year assistant coach after 48 hours of searching is the best way to find a new head coach. Cottingham either thinks Marquette isn't a destiny job or was too incompetent to call more than three people for the position.

Relatedly, people have to stop this obnoxious continuum of Buzz good, Crean evil versus Buzz bad, Crean good. One does not depend on the other (though I do think Crean was evil...).

I agree. I'm happy with Buzz's results, though some from the JUCO route and taking kids that never step foot on campus due to grades is troubling to me.  But he has continued to carry the ball.....but he could have been had a week or two later.  MU is classic at screwing up searches.  It's not hard, companies successfully do them all the time.

[Tugg Speedman]

I agree. I'm happy with Buzz's results, though some from the JUCO route and taking kids that never step foot on campus due to grades is troubling to me.  But he has continued to carry the ball.....but he could have been had a week or two later.  MU is classic at screwing up searches.  It's not hard, companies successfully do them all the time.

Plenty of companies conduct the search exactly the way you want and wind up with a  dud.  The only thing that matters is the result.  In this case the result worked out ... criticism of a successful process (again we got a good HC) says more about the poster than about the process.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Plenty of companies conduct the search exactly the way you want and wind up with a  dud.  The only thing that matters is the result.  In this case the result worked out ... criticism of a successful process (again we got a good HC) says more about the poster than about the process.

Yes, the only thing that matters is the result. But, as I said, I think that 95 times out of 100 doing the process as we did would not yield good results. Fortunately, we landed one of the five out of 100 in this type of scenario.

[NersEllenson]

I agree. I'm happy with Buzz's results, though some from the JUCO route and taking kids that never step foot on campus due to grades is troubling to me.  But he has continued to carry the ball.....but he could have been had a week or two later.  MU is classic at screwing up searches.  It's not hard, companies successfully do them all the time.

You get upset when I say D-Wade was the key factor in the Final Four run (even though I've provided ample evidence to support that claim) - by saying that as a result of making that point, I'm disrespecting what contribution Diener, Novak, RJack and Merritt made....YET..you have the audacity to say JUCOs are "troubling" to you??  Is that basically not disrespecting Jimmy Butler, DJO, Fulce, Dwight Buycks - who all have been model citizens, good performers on court, and good ambassadors of the program??

[Blackhat]

Yes, the only thing that matters is the result. But, as I said, I think that 95 times out of 100 doing the process as we did would not yield good results. Fortunately, we landed one of the five out of 100 in this type of scenario.

You know nothing about what process took place, yet you criticize it because of the duration.   

Sounds like someone just looking to complain without most or any real facts. 

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

You know nothing about what process took place, yet you criticize it because of the duration.   

Sounds like someone just looking to complain without most or any real facts. 

I know this sounds impossible, but it is possible to criticize the process and be happy with the results. Take off your blue and gold glasses for a minute.

[Blackhat]

I know this sounds impossible, but it is possible to criticize the process and be happy with the results. Take off your blue and gold glasses for a minute.

You don't know what the process is or was.   You just want to complain....take off your nagger glasses. 

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Ok, genius, tell us all exactly what the process was.

[Pakuni]

A very fair question. I think something of this nature happened, IIRC. Cottingham called three coaches (can't remember which three) during the first 48 hours after Crean left, and then "settled" on Buzz.

I'm delighted by Buzz thusfar, but 95 times out of 100, in the situation where 3 more established coaches have turned down a school in only 48 hours after the search begins, it would be prudent to continue seeking more established candidates before "settling" (to use too loaded a word, but you get my point) with the one year assistant coach. Fortunately, we seem so far to have hit one out of the five times out of 100 that such a scenario bears success.

The problem with your scenario is that it assumes Cottingham and the administration believed they were "settling" for Buzz. For all any of us know, Buzz was at or near the top of Cottingham's list of potential replacements long before Crean left. When the two guys above him said 'No thanks" he went with #3. It's easy to assume that a "one-year assistant" without much head coaching experience wouldn't be atop that list, but Cottingham had been around the guy for almost a year, had seen him coach, had seen him recruit, had seen him interact with the university community. Basically, he had seen all the things about Buzz that have impressed most of us since his hiring. To us, Buzz was largely an unknown, so his hiring might seem to you like "settling." Cottingham, however, was coming at it from a very different perspective than you or I, or even the all-knowing commenters here.

Oh, and could you list the 95 times out of 100 where such a situation bears failure?

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Sorry to hear you don't know what statistical probability is, Pakuni. I wasn't referring to actual hires.

[Blackhat]

Ok, genius, tell us all exactly what the process was.

All I know is you don't know.  


I know one thing in regards to coaching searches:

1) I don't want committees making the call, I want one or two at the most individuals making the call.   It introduces real accountability.