Is Crean In Trouble?

[HoopsMalone]

LOL....    The state of Indiana is and always will be a "hotbed" of high school basketball talent...   and IU will always be "the" top state university.   IU has 5 banners for a reason, and 2 of them were won by a coach other than the legendary RMK....  Mike "freaking" Davis nearly got one....     

Just because you are obviously biased against IU, please do not underestimate the "brand"...   IU will be back, it just will not happen under  Tom Crean.  The head BB coach at Indiana does not even need to leave the state to recruit and he would feild a Big Ten champion caliber team...   (Crean has yet to figure this out tho..  ?)

Look me up in 20 years when Izzo and K are long gone from their schools....   they will fall right back where they always have been....   to being "average"...   

UK, IU, NC, Kansas, and maybe UCLA.....     they all represent "tradition" ....   that is something that does not ever fade away... 

I can respect your thoughts on instate recruiting, but I disagree.  Staying at home is not as big of a deal as it used to be.  Kids play AAU and get exposed to lots of different styles of play.  A kid from Indiana can go to UNC or even Florida and his family can see every single one of his games due to technology.  IU definately needs to recruit nationally, as does every school if they think they will win the Big Ten consistently..

[ZiggysFryBoy]

PRN, this is for you.   

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=170&f=2353&t=5948359

[Marquette84]

I think some MU fans fail to realize how bad it was at MU after Crean left (once the Big 3 graduated)  Of course we got 1 year with the Big 3 - but after that, all that was left was basically Lazar, Mo, and Cooby.  Both Crean and Buzz were in year 2 of their tenure - Buzz had the above 3 players, and nothing else.  Buzz lost his Top 2 recruits - one to injury and one to transfer.  Also lost his starting center. (So Crean lost his top-rated recruit?)  Yet, somehow, Buzz guided us to a 5th place finish in Big East and 22 wins, and damn near a Sweet 16 birth (if you extrapolate that MU would have beat New Mexico, considering how Washington destroyed them.)

Yes.  For all those MU fans who fail to realize how bad it was, it is a wonder that Buzz even gave us the time of day when he was offered the job in 2008.  

New Orleans was clearly a cakewalk compared to the bad, bad, bad situation at Marquette.

First, Buzz would only inherit the #1, #2, #4 and #9 all-time scorers, and the #4 all-time 3 point % shooter.  It probably kept Buzz up for nights on end wondering how we would EVER put points on the board with that lack of scoring ability.

Further hampering Buzz was the disadvantage of already working for Marquette for a year.  That meant that he lost out on the normal advantages that unfamiliarity with a school and program provide--like having to start over building recruiting ties, getting to know the returning players, evaluating their talents, etc.  Its obviously a huge disadvantage to already know what your players can and can't do.  

Its also a huge disadvantage that Buzz was already on the road recruiting for Marquette.  All that time and effort  in 2007 and 2008--completely wasted recruiting players for his former program, Marquette. He'd have to do an about face with all of them and convince them to consider playing for his new team, Marquette. 

Furthermore, the classes were terribly unbalanced the day Buzz took over.  3 seniors about to graduate.  4 juniors.  three sophomores, and three frosh.  Could it be any more unbalanced?  Everyone knows that good teams have exactly 3.25 players per class.  What was that noise of 4 players in the junior class?  Terrible--simply terrible situation with that imbalance.

It was made worse that those juniors had started.   Damn, could Buzz's luck get any worse?  Only 4 returning starters from a 25 win team?  Are you kidding me?  The hits just keep on coming--I'm sure Buzz looked at that roster and felt NOBODY could even play!!

All that meant is that Buzz had the HUGE disadvantage of having a full year to recruit.  Everyone knows its far better to take a job in April and have to scramble to fill a roster by that fall.  

And another HUGE disadvantage was having lots of minutes to hand out--just about the toughest situation for any coach to recruit for.  Far better to try and bring in players when the playing time is at least two seasons away.  Because all great players fully expect that need to spend a year or two on the bench before playing.  

Further making things difficult for Buzz was the lack of impending NCAA penalties or sanctions. Everyone knows players line up to get into programs that will be ineligible for the NCAA tournament.

And Buzz really had to rebuild attendance.  MU was only coming off its #1 all-time attendance year when he came on board.  Terrible situation.  Terrible.  Fans had really completly given up on the program.  It was a struggle to get students to games.  People wore paper bags over their heads.  You could hear a pin drop it was so quiet.

Yes, those sure were dark, dark days in 2008.  Once has to wonder if Buzz spends sleepless nights wondering if he made the right decision leaving New Orleans, given the decidedly much worse situation at Marquette in 2008. 

[avid1010]

Yes.  For all those MU fans who fail to realize how bad it was, it is a wonder that Buzz even gave us the time of day when he was offered the job in 2008.  

New Orleans was clearly a cakewalk compared to the bad, bad, bad situation at Marquette.

So who was in a better situation going into last years season, Buzz or TC? 

[Doctor V]

Yes.  For all those MU fans who fail to realize how bad it was, it is a wonder that Buzz even gave us the time of day when he was offered the job in 2008.  

New Orleans was clearly a cakewalk compared to the bad, bad, bad situation at Marquette.

First, Buzz would only inherit the #1, #2, #4 and #9 all-time scorers, and the #4 all-time 3 point % shooter.  It probably kept Buzz up for nights on end wondering how we would EVER put points on the board with that lack of scoring ability.

Further hampering Buzz was the disadvantage of already working for Marquette for a year.  That meant that he lost out on the normal advantages that unfamiliarity with a school and program provide--like having to start over building recruiting ties, getting to know the returning players, evaluating their talents, etc.  Its obviously a huge disadvantage to already know what your players can and can't do.  

Its also a huge disadvantage that Buzz was already on the road recruiting for Marquette.  All that time and effort  in 2007 and 2008--completely wasted recruiting players for his former program, Marquette. He'd have to do an about face with all of them and convince them to consider playing for his new team, Marquette. 

Furthermore, the classes were terribly unbalanced the day Buzz took over.  3 seniors about to graduate.  4 juniors.  three sophomores, and three frosh.  Could it be any more unbalanced?  Everyone knows that good teams have exactly 3.25 players per class.  What was that noise of 4 players in the junior class?  Terrible--simply terrible situation with that imbalance.

It was made worse that those juniors had started.   Damn, could Buzz's luck get any worse?  Only 4 returning starters from a 25 win team?  Are you kidding me?  The hits just keep on coming--I'm sure Buzz looked at that roster and felt NOBODY could even play!!

All that meant is that Buzz had the HUGE disadvantage of having a full year to recruit.  Everyone knows its far better to take a job in April and have to scramble to fill a roster by that fall.  

And another HUGE disadvantage was having lots of minutes to hand out--just about the toughest situation for any coach to recruit for.  Far better to try and bring in players when the playing time is at least two seasons away.  Because all great players fully expect that need to spend a year or two on the bench before playing.  

Further making things difficult for Buzz was the lack of impending NCAA penalties or sanctions. Everyone knows players line up to get into programs that will be ineligible for the NCAA tournament.

And Buzz really had to rebuild attendance.  MU was only coming off its #1 all-time attendance year when he came on board.  Terrible situation.  Terrible.  Fans had really completly given up on the program.  It was a struggle to get students to games.  People wore paper bags over their heads.  You could hear a pin drop it was so quiet.

Yes, those sure were dark, dark days in 2008.  Once has to wonder if Buzz spends sleepless nights wondering if he made the right decision leaving New Orleans, given the decidedly much worse situation at Marquette in 2008. 

You catch a lot of slack, but for those who do not understand what TC did while here, that review of what he left should suffice. In all honesty, and I love Buzz without a doubt, coach Williams was lucky to be discovered by Crean. He was also lucky to have a year to get to know the program, and then to get the job in such a great condition. To his credit, he has not let that luck get to him and is well deserved of the position

So, the credit goes to TC for bringing him to MU, those in charge of the hiring for recognizing a diamond in the rough, and Buzz for carrying the torch.... There you go, everyone should be happy

[GGGG]

Game, Set, Match to Marquette84.

[Blackhat]

We all know the talent at MU was front loaded and once the Big three graduated there were a lot of holes for Buzz to fill with top talent, the kind he expects.

He walked into a great situation.   But the year after we all thought the cupboard was bare in regards to talent.  Buzz got a lot out of marginal talent which is a sign of a good coach, imo. 

So there were challenges but also advantages going forward when Buzz took the job. 

[NersEllenson]

Yes.  For all those MU fans who fail to realize how bad it was, it is a wonder that Buzz even gave us the time of day when he was offered the job in 2008.  

New Orleans was clearly a cakewalk compared to the bad, bad, bad situation at Marquette.

First, Buzz would only inherit the #1, #2, #4 and #9 all-time scorers, and the #4 all-time 3 point % shooter.  It probably kept Buzz up for nights on end wondering how we would EVER put points on the board with that lack of scoring ability.

Further hampering Buzz was the disadvantage of already working for Marquette for a year.  That meant that he lost out on the normal advantages that unfamiliarity with a school and program provide--like having to start over building recruiting ties, getting to know the returning players, evaluating their talents, etc.  Its obviously a huge disadvantage to already know what your players can and can't do.  

Its also a huge disadvantage that Buzz was already on the road recruiting for Marquette.  All that time and effort  in 2007 and 2008--completely wasted recruiting players for his former program, Marquette. He'd have to do an about face with all of them and convince them to consider playing for his new team, Marquette. 

Furthermore, the classes were terribly unbalanced the day Buzz took over.  3 seniors about to graduate.  4 juniors.  three sophomores, and three frosh.  Could it be any more unbalanced?  Everyone knows that good teams have exactly 3.25 players per class.  What was that noise of 4 players in the junior class?  Terrible--simply terrible situation with that imbalance.

It was made worse that those juniors had started.   Damn, could Buzz's luck get any worse?  Only 4 returning starters from a 25 win team?  Are you kidding me?  The hits just keep on coming--I'm sure Buzz looked at that roster and felt NOBODY could even play!!

All that meant is that Buzz had the HUGE disadvantage of having a full year to recruit.  Everyone knows its far better to take a job in April and have to scramble to fill a roster by that fall.  

And another HUGE disadvantage was having lots of minutes to hand out--just about the toughest situation for any coach to recruit for.  Far better to try and bring in players when the playing time is at least two seasons away.  Because all great players fully expect that need to spend a year or two on the bench before playing.  

Further making things difficult for Buzz was the lack of impending NCAA penalties or sanctions. Everyone knows players line up to get into programs that will be ineligible for the NCAA tournament.

And Buzz really had to rebuild attendance.  MU was only coming off its #1 all-time attendance year when he came on board.  Terrible situation.  Terrible.  Fans had really completly given up on the program.  It was a struggle to get students to games.  People wore paper bags over their heads.  You could hear a pin drop it was so quiet.

Yes, those sure were dark, dark days in 2008.  Once has to wonder if Buzz spends sleepless nights wondering if he made the right decision leaving New Orleans, given the decidedly much worse situation at Marquette in 2008. 

Once again 84 twists the issue - Nobody denies Year 1 under Buzz was set-up to be easy, or well stocked with talent.  Way to write a 12 paragraph rebuttal stating the freakin' obvious.  What you don't really address is the disparity in performance between your boy TC and Buzz in Year 2 of their time at the head of their respective programs.  To say that Buzz working as an assistant at MU gave him a HUGE advantage in recruiting when he got the job in late April of 2008, is a joke.  Explain then, why Crean just signed the #66  rated JUCO player, well into his his 3rd year at IU?  Is he still getting familiar with the IU brand?

[NersEllenson]

I am an idiot? Half of the people around here call you an idiot, but Ill take your word for it. You can use numbers all you want, but the fact of the matter is that many of those close wins were blown leads:

GTown- Close throughout
UConn- MU up 43-33 in the 2nd half and had the lead basically the entire game until the 7 minute mark, wins by 2
Providence- MU up 8 78-70 with 2 minutes left, wins by 3
Cincy- Close throughout
St Johns- Close throughout
SH- MU up 34-26 at halftime and 78-71 with 1:43 left in OT, wins by 1
St Johns @ MSG- MU up 27-17 at half, close throughout the 2nd half, wins by 2
Nova- MU down slightly most of the game, up 65-57 with 4:54 left, wins by 4

Oh and some of those close losses were huge blown leads as well:

FSU- MU up 30-18 at half, 40-26 in 2nd half and still up 10 with 10 mins left, lose by 1
NCSt- MU up 36-25 at half, lose by 4
WVU- MU up 62-57 with 1 minute left, lose by 1
DePaul- MU up nearly entire game (by 6 at half) and 50-46 with 20 sec left, lose by 1
ND- MU up 42-33 with 12:40 left in the game, up 50-43 with 1:19 left, lose in OT by 3
Washington- MU up 60-45 with 13:58 left and we know the rest

So there were 5 of those close wins, and 6 of the close losses where MU had a big double digit lead at halftime or some point in the second half. Also, there were unfortunately quite a few with pretty good leads in the final 5 or even 1-2 minutes of the game.

Clearly this is going to play right into your "undersized, undermaned" theory, and fall back on Crean leaving the cupboard bare. This is gonna prove that super Buzz took pathetic little MU and miraculously had them up in those games. AGAIN, I am NOT saying the team didn't overachieve. I am also not doubting that they were probably gassed in some of those games. HOWEVER, unlike you, I believe Buzz deserves some of that blame (as most reasonable people would). If you see a pattern and assume its because your team is gassed (which btw he repeatedly denied) you play some of your "scraps" by necessity so that guys are fresh. Also, many of these blown leads are at the beginning of the 2nd half, and within the last 2 minutes, areas directly involved with important coaching decisions

The fact of the matter is, and I have said this the entire season, as a young coach Buzz still has to prove he can get the most out of guys #7-10 on his roster. Also, he has yet to get over the hump with regards to blowing leads, especially in end game situations. Anyone with any basketball sense can see this, but only if they allow their Buzz hard-on to go limp for a few seconds.

Anyway, I am done arguing with you because you sir are a clown, and have wasted 30 minutes of my night

PS: My sincere apologies to every MU basketball fan for bringing up some of those heart wrenching losses, I am now ready for a drink

It is comedic that in your above example you reference 8 wins in close games, and olnly 6 losses.  Guess what, teams make runs in basketball games too - are you going to extoll the great coaching of Buzz to where he got his team into the above mentioned leads?  Probably not, nor would I be ridiculous enough to do so.  Basketball is a game of runs.  When you are under,manned, undersized, more than likely your 2nd half perfoermance will be less than your first half performance.  And yes, Buzz did say the guys were gassed after the Georgetown game in the big East tourney.  We'll see who looks like the idiot as the next 4 years move forward, but it sounds to me unless MU can dominate its opponent for all 40 minutes of a game, there will have been poor coaching to blame.  Armchair guys like you who can coach a team better than the guys getting paid millions to do so crack me up.  Lastly, sorry you took 30 minutes to write a rebuttal that falls flat on its face - must be drinking a little too much too often.

[GGGG]

  Once again 84 twists the issue - Nobody denies Year 1 under Buzz was set-up to be easy, or well stocked with talent.  Way to write a 12 paragraph rebuttal stating the freakin' obvious.  What you don't really address is the disparity in performance between your boy TC and Buzz in Year 2 of their time at the head of their respective programs. 

Buzz inherited three seniors that started pretty much all of last year.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

  Once again 84 twists the issue - Nobody denies Year 1 under Buzz was set-up to be easy, or well stocked with talent.  Way to write a 12 paragraph rebuttal stating the freakin' obvious.  What you don't really address is the disparity in performance between your boy TC and Buzz in Year 2 of their time at the head of their respective programs.  To say that Buzz working as an assistant at MU gave him a HUGE advantage in recruiting when he got the job in late April of 2008, is a joke.  Explain then, why Crean just signed the #66  rated JUCO player, well into his his 3rd year at IU?  Is he still getting familiar with the IU brand?

Be careful here, because with that logic Buzz will have to make the final 4 in his 4th season to compare to Crean, and we know that type of comparison isn't fair.

Factually, the team Buzz inherited had some holes, but probably wasn't as dire as you make it out to be. Lazar was a stud, there were some decent role players, and Mbakwe and Taylor were good players. Now, I'm not blaming Buzz for those players leaving, I'm just saying technically they were signed up for MU.

What TC does at IU doesn't retroactively make what he did at MU more/less impressive.

[Golden Avalanche]

This is sad but true.  Buzz makes these recruits feel wanted and they can feel his religion for the game.  He also has recent results with not much talent.

This is simply a ridiculous statement.

[NersEllenson]

Be careful here, because with that logic Buzz will have to make the final 4 in his 4th season to compare to Crean, and we know that type of comparison isn't fair.

Factually, the team Buzz inherited had some holes, but probably wasn't as dire as you make it out to be. Lazar was a stud, there were some decent role players, and Mbakwe and Taylor were good players. Now, I'm not blaming Buzz for those players leaving, I'm just saying technically they were signed up for MU.

What TC does at IU doesn't retroactively make what he did at MU more/less impressive.

Actually, I don't think it is a stretch to think MU could make the Final Four in 2011-2012 with DJO as a senior, Crowder as a senior, and IF (big if) somehow Vander Blue or Jamail Jones turn out to be the next coming of d-Wade!!  Actually, they may not need to be D-Wade good, because there will be a lot of talent around - top to bottom of roster.

And I don't blame Tom Crean for Taylor and Williams for leaving, nor do I blame Buzz for Christopherson and Mbawke leaving - as those were Tom Crean recruits...and either they didn't like Buzz, or Buzz wasn't totally sold on them (at least in the case of Christopherson - we know Mbawke left late - but recently tweeted that he regrets leaving, as he "see's Buzz has kept the program relevant.")  Perhaps Trevor had doubts about Buzz - just like many of us did initially - though mine have been completely extinguished - some here remain unsold.

And as for the Hazel situation - he was a Tom Crean recruit who Buzz retained, and who would have played a role - had he not run astray of program rules...which thus lead to his departure.

[avid1010]

Buzz inherited three seniors that started pretty much all of last year.

Right, Coobie and Acker are clearly BEAST starting guards???  Buzz got a ton out of those guys, far more than TC, and he'll never have players with the lack of natural talent those two did again. 

[NersEllenson]

Buzz inherited three seniors that started pretty much all of last year.

As mentioned in my original post....but let's be real for a minute neither Mo Acker nor David Cubiallan could be considered prototypical Big East guards.  Buzz got the most out of both Mo and David, and credit goes to both the player and coach for that.  Ironically, both of these players almost quit due to Buzz - but there is no denying in their senior night speeches and quotes throughout the year, that they have a great deal of respect for Buzz.  I'm quite sure Buzz's methods got the most out of both Cooby and Mo.  I thought Mo was sensational - so for that thanks Jerel for getting your best friend on the MU team, and thanks to Tom Crean for allowing Mo to come to MU.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Actually, I don't think it is a stretch to think MU could make the Final Four in 2011-2012 with DJO as a senior, Crowder as a senior, and IF (big if) somehow Vander Blue or Jamail Jones turn out to be the next coming of d-Wade!!  Actually, they may not need to be D-Wade good, because there will be a lot of talent around - top to bottom of roster.

And I don't blame Tom Crean for Taylor and Williams for leaving, nor do I blame Buzz for Christopherson and Mbawke leaving - as those were Tom Crean recruits...and either they didn't like Buzz, or Buzz wasn't totally sold on them (at least in the case of Christopherson - we know Mbawke left late - but recently tweeted that he regrets leaving, as he "see's Buzz has kept the program relevant.")  Perhaps Trevor had doubts about Buzz - just like many of us did initially - though mine have been completely extinguished - some here remain unsold.

And as for the Hazel situation - he was a Tom Crean recruit who Buzz retained, and who would have played a role - had he not run astray of program rules...which thus lead to his departure.

Fair enough. If Buzz doesn't make the final 4 in 2012, I'll be sure to use it as proof that Crean is better than Buzz.

Sound stupid?

It is.

Direct comparisons without context are silly, which is really what I was referring to in my previous post.

[Pakuni]

Buzz inherited three seniors that started pretty much all of last year.

Two of whom were viewed by most observers - including most observers here - as something far below Big East-caliber players.
Seven months ago Acker and Cubi were mid-major level players and backups. If they were forced to contribute major minutes, it would spell doom for Marquette's 2009-10 season.
Today Buzz "inherited" them as starters.
Awesome.

[Lennys Tap]

PRN, this is for you.   

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=170&f=2353&t=5948359

Makes me wonder. If Albert Pujols and Riley Crean went to the same baseball camp, who would win the MVP award?

[Avenue Commons]

Interesting that the one person not mentioned who was most significant in all of this is Dwyane Wade.

No D. Wade at Marquette, no Final 4. No Final 4, no Big East. No Big East, no limelight for Tom Crean. No limelight, Tom Crean isn't the coach at Indiana.

I used to give Tom Crean credit for being the one to effectively recruit and "develop" Dwyane Wade, but I now realize it was just amazing good fortune and timing. Dwyane Wade is now one of the ten best 2 guards EVER. There might be an argument he is one of the five best 2 guards ever. No program is ever going to get another Dwyane Wade because there won't be another one. He is a Hall of Fame player and there just aren't a lot of those. Even North Carolina will never get another Michael Jordan.

[Lennys Tap]

Buzz inherited three seniors that started pretty much all of last year.

A factually correct statement that creates a totally false impression. Congratulations. The University of 84 hereby bequeths upon you a doctorate degree in both history and logic.

[mug644]

It is comedic that in your above example you reference 8 wins in close games, and olnly 6 losses.  Guess what, teams make runs in basketball games too - are you going to extoll the great coaching of Buzz to where he got his team into the above mentioned leads?  Probably not, nor would I be ridiculous enough to do so.  Basketball is a game of runs.  When you are under,manned, undersized, more than likely your 2nd half perfoermance will be less than your first half performance. 

The posts by mudimitri and Ners lead me to wonder what was the biggest deficit that MU overcame last year before winning a game. Leads of 14, 11 and 15 were lost, but what was the biggest comeback that the team made? Does comparing leads lost vs. deficits overcome tell anything about the accusation of being gassed, or of an inability of Buzz to "get the most out of guys #7-10 on his roster" as mudimitri states?

[ChicosBailBonds]

So who was in a better situation going into last years season, Buzz or TC? 

Was that supposed to be in teal?

Buzz, by a mile

[ChicosBailBonds]

Game, Set, Match to Marquette84.

Well said and obvious to everyone but about 5 people.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Interesting that the one person not mentioned who was most significant in all of this is Dwyane Wade.

No D. Wade at Marquette, no Final 4. No Final 4, no Big East. No Big East, no limelight for Tom Crean. No limelight, Tom Crean isn't the coach at Indiana.

I used to give Tom Crean credit for being the one to effectively recruit and "develop" Dwyane Wade, but I now realize it was just amazing good fortune and timing. Dwyane Wade is now one of the ten best 2 guards EVER. There might be an argument he is one of the five best 2 guards ever. No program is ever going to get another Dwyane Wade because there won't be another one. He is a Hall of Fame player and there just aren't a lot of those. Even North Carolina will never get another Michael Jordan.

Yup, and no Tom Crean and no D. Wade at MU....works both ways.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chico...  nobody at IU expected 20 win seasons....   but we did expect a team to "develop" and "play hard" every single night....   and IU, the last 11 or 12 games,...  did NOT do either...

IU got dramatically worse by year end..   and Crean allowed the same players to make the same silly mistakes game in, game out... 

It only took Tommy until the last regular season game to finally BENCH J Rivers...  it should have happened 12 games earlier... 

There are no unrealistic expectations at IU.....    but IU fans do expect better than the 145the and 149th ranked rivals prospects, and the 66th ranked JUCO player in the nation in year 3 of the rebuild.............   I mean this man offered D Williams after watching ONE workout.......   a 1 star role player from Atlanta...   and later rescinded the offer...  making him look like an idiot....

All signs simply point to TC being a fraud...     but he still has time...   and he needs to make the most of it... 

IU did get worse LAST year at the end.  I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.  As for Crean offering D Williams after one workout, Buzz offered Roseboro SIGHT UNSEEN.  It happens.

Do you not expect IU to be around .500 this year?