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[MUeagle05]

If the pope is infallable why has he apologized for mistakes?

just sayin'

Not every aspect of what the pope says or does is infallible.  The pope only speaks infallably on certain subjects, such as doctrine.

Again, it might be a good idea to know a little something about what you are attempting to criticize . . .

[Lennys Tap]

If the pope is infallable why has he apologized for mistakes?

just sayin'

According to catholic doctrine the pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra (from the chair). This rarely happens, and only on matters of faith and morals. I assume you knew that and were making a joke. If not, either the powers that be don't teach basic catholic doctrine anymore or you weren't payin' attention.

just sayin'

[Hards Alumni]

According to catholic doctrine the pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra (from the chair). This rarely happens, and only on matters of faith and morals. I assume you knew that and were making a joke. If not, either the powers that be don't teach basic catholic doctrine anymore or you weren't payin' attention.

just sayin'

lol of course it was tongue in cheek, should have used the teal :-/

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yes, I work with teens and young adults.  What does that have to do with people grappling with difficult issues? 

You made the statement that who talks about abortion, etc this way.  People are WAY WAY WAY too casual about abortion, divorce, etc these days.  Abortion, for some, is merely a birth control device now which is beyond sick.  Sure, for most it's still a decision they agonize through, but because we've made it so easy, taken down all barriers, the attitudes have changed.  "Just go get an abortion".   

Too many easy ways out, especially among younger people these days.  Very troubling.

[d6]

You made the statement that who talks about abortion, etc this way.  People are WAY WAY WAY too casual about abortion, divorce, etc these days.  Abortion, for some, is merely a birth control device now which is beyond sick.  Sure, for most it's still a decision they agonize through, but because we've made it so easy, taken down all barriers, the attitudes have changed.  "Just go get an abortion".  

Too many easy ways out, especially among younger people these days.  Very troubling.

To be honest, it's hard to follow the logic.  Are "People WAY WAY WAY" to casual about these issues?  Which people? Young people? All people? Non-Catholics?  Most people I encounter would never say "just go get an abortion," they would agonize over it.  Most people I know who have gotten divorced haven't done so without troubling over it. I can't speak for "People."  

[shiloh26]

To be honest, it's hard to follow the logic.  Are "People WAY WAY WAY" to casual about these issues?  Which people? Young people? All people? Non-Catholics?  Most people I encounter would never say "just go get an abortion," they would agonize over it.  Most people I know who have gotten divorced haven't done so without troubling over it. I can't speak for "People."  

Just more people, apparently... more people than... before. 

[reinko]

You made the statement that who talks about abortion, etc this way.  People are WAY WAY WAY too casual about abortion, divorce, etc these days.  Abortion, for some, is merely a birth control device now which is beyond sick.  Sure, for most it's still a decision they agonize through, but because we've made it so easy, taken down all barriers, the attitudes have changed.  "Just go get an abortion".  

Too many easy ways out, especially among younger people these days.  Very troubling.

You would think they way you talk abortions would be at an all-time high?

Actually the # has been declining steadily from 1.4 million in 1990, to about 800,000.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5713a1.htm

Edit: The divorce rate is falling too, lowest it has been since 1970.  In 2005, 3.5 per 1,000, once again steadily declining since the height of 4.1 in late 1980's.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/divorce.htm

[mu-rara]

You made the statement that who talks about abortion, etc this way.  People are WAY WAY WAY too casual about abortion, divorce, etc these days.  Abortion, for some, is merely a birth control device now which is beyond sick.  Sure, for most it's still a decision they agonize through, but because we've made it so easy, taken down all barriers, the attitudes have changed.  "Just go get an abortion".   

Too many easy ways out, especially among younger people these days.  Very troubling.

Chicos, We are not talking about Abortion or Divorce.  I agree with you 100%.  Abortion is murder, and it has become the birth control of last resort.  The Catholic Church is the only institution standing between us and all out infanticide.

Now, back to the topic of this thread.  Much has been learned about Homosexuality since Biblical Times.  At that time, There was no concept that it was not a choice.  It was observed as deviant behavior, for the enjoyment of the participant.  We all know that is not the case.  We learned this through research and learning.  Maybe Dr. O'Brien would add to that understanding.

[GGGG]

And here I thought that was one of the core beliefs of Catholicism.


Papal Infallibility

I realize this is rarely used, and has not been for this particular issue, but what you are saying by your comments is that Papal Infallibility does not exist.  Am I reading you incorrectly?  If you do believe in Papal Infallibility and such a statement in the future comes from the Pope on this topic, then what?

I do not believe in Papal Infallibility. but again, I'm not Catholic.  I think that notion was established to preserve power and control in a young church because there obviously isn't a Biblical basis for it.

Tell me, why would God estrust faith and doctrine related issues to a group of people who wouldn't step up to protect young children when they needed it the most?  I mean, it's a nice racket...when we make mistakes it's because we're not infallible, but when we are telling others how they need to live, we are.

[GGGG]

Chicos, We are not talking about Abortion or Divorce.  I agree with you 100%.  Abortion is murder, and it has become the birth control of last resort.  The Catholic Church is the only institution standing between us and all out infanticide.

Oh good lord....exaggerate much?  I'll also point out that you misused the term infanticide.

[GGGG]

You made the statement that who talks about abortion, etc this way.  People are WAY WAY WAY too casual about abortion, divorce, etc these days.  Abortion, for some, is merely a birth control device now which is beyond sick.  Sure, for most it's still a decision they agonize through, but because we've made it so easy, taken down all barriers, the attitudes have changed.  "Just go get an abortion".   

Too many easy ways out, especially among younger people these days.  Very troubling.

Do *you* work with young adults?  Because to be honest, I think they are much more "with it" as a group than I ever was at that age.  They've been a little more coddled and spoiled than my generation, but honestly that's because they have a much more open relationship with their parents than I did.  I mean, I talk to my teenage kids much more openly and honestly than I did with my parents....and I don't think I'm alone in that regard.

[mu-rara]

Oh good lord....exaggerate much?  I'll also point out that you misused the term infanticide.

Maybe it was slightly hyperbolic>

Name another institution that takes as strong a stand against abortion as the Church.  

Infanticide is where we are going.  We can't even get politicians to eliminate the most gruesome late term abortions.  

Please, I was responding to Chicos.  Let's not let this thread go too far astray.

[GGGG]

Maybe it was slightly hyperbolic>

Name another institution that takes as strong a stand against abortion as the Church. 

Infanticide is where we are going.  We can't even get politicains to eliminate the most gruesome late term abortions. 

Please, I was responding to Chicos.  Let's not let this thread go too far astray.

There are less abortions now than there were 30 years ago despite it being legal everywhere....there are many organizations and inviduals who can take credit for that...including both the Catholic Church and Planned Parenthood.

[mu-rara]

There are less abortions now than there were 30 years ago despite it being legal everywhere....there are many organizations and inviduals who can take credit for that...including both the Catholic Church and Planned Parenthood.

I wish I could ignore this, but I can't:  

PLANNED PARENTHOOD???  They provide abortions for their livelihood.

[shiloh26]

I wish I could ignore this, but I can't: 

PLANNED PARENTHOOD???  They depend on providing abortions for their livelihood.

They also provide information and free contraceptives so a lot of the unplanned pregnancies never come into being. 

His point (I think) is that the Catholic Church attacks the problem from one angle (abstinence), and Planned Parenthood attacks it from another (encouraging the use of contraceptives, and providing free contraceptives).  Thus, both can take credit for the decrease in abortions.

[GGGG]

They also provide information and free contraceptives so a lot of the unplanned pregnancies never come into being. 

His point (I think) is that the Catholic Church attacks the problem from one angle (abstinence), and Planned Parenthood attacks it from another (encouraging the use of contraceptives, and providing free contraceptives).  Thus, both can take credit for the decrease in abortions.

Yes, that is exactly my point.  Without PP providing free contraceptives, the amount of abortions would skyrocket.  And if they didn't provide abortions, someone else would.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If the pope is infallable why has he apologized for mistakes?

just sayin'

Because it's only been used about a dozen times.  There have been no apologies after infallibility has been invoked.

This is why I framed my statement accordingly.  If the Pope comes out with an infallible statement about gays and marriage, as Catholics we believe this is word without error, directly from the Holy Spirit.  If that were to happen, what would you Catholics do?

[ChicosBailBonds]

To be honest, it's hard to follow the logic.  Are "People WAY WAY WAY" to casual about these issues?  Which people? Young people? All people? Non-Catholics?  Most people I encounter would never say "just go get an abortion," they would agonize over it.  Most people I know who have gotten divorced haven't done so without troubling over it. I can't speak for "People."  

You're right, you can't speak for people...how about for statistics.

Here are a few illustrative examples that might help frame it for you.

Repeat abortions have been rising steadily for almost two decades.  That "agonizing" decision isn't quite so agonizing when it becomes more and more routine.  More than half of abortions the last few years are to women who had one or more previously.  It has become birth control for these women.  We've made it too casual, too easy.

In the UK, repeat abortions rose to nearly 70% in 2008. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1127083/Repeat-abortions-teenage-girls-risen-70.html


A study done in 2006 by David Popenoe, Director of the National Marriage Project at Rutgers University, shows views of divorce among teens and 20 year olds is less bothersome.  They have seen their parents go through divorce and view divorces in a different light then generations earlier who held divorce as a last possible event in a marriage.    Remember the old saying, "the family that prays together stays together".  Well, that was an adage that was held widely and practiced widely in this country and other parts of the world for decades.  It's not anymore and the we've seen the fallout as a result.

Divorce rates increased by more than double in the 1970's, as people were less committed to staying married and working through their issues.  By 1981, divorces had tripled from 1962.   Who was doing this the most...the YOUNGER people of this country.  One sociologist at Stanford University calculated that while men and women in their twenties comprised only about 20 percent of the population, they contributed 60 percent of the growth in the divorce rate in the 1960s and early 1970s.  (Landon Jones, Great Expectations: America and the Baby Boom Generation (New York: Ballantine Books, 1980), 215.




I could go on, but you get the idea.   We have given "people", typically young, immature, people the easy way out on relationships, sex, pregnancy, relationships in general, etc.  It has caused untold harm on the family unit as well as the very moral fabric a society needs when placing value on the family, children, etc.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I do not believe in Papal Infallibility. but again, I'm not Catholic.  I think that notion was established to preserve power and control in a young church because there obviously isn't a Biblical basis for it.

Tell me, why would God estrust faith and doctrine related issues to a group of people who wouldn't step up to protect young children when they needed it the most?  I mean, it's a nice racket...when we make mistakes it's because we're not infallible, but when we are telling others how they need to live, we are.

Because you're confusing a GROUP for individuals.  Papal infallibility has only been used about a dozen times, don't confuse that usage by one person as the same as the actions (or inactions in this case) by a group of people that are totally different.    Because Barry Bonds used Steroids, does that mean all the Giants did?

[ChicosBailBonds]

There are less abortions now than there were 30 years ago despite it being legal everywhere....there are many organizations and inviduals who can take credit for that...including both the Catholic Church and Planned Parenthood.

That all depends on who is counting and what you are counting.  Is the morning after pill considered abortion in your mind?  A lot of people say it is, yet it's not counted as an abortion yet in reality, that medication is destroying a fertilized egg.   The CDC as well as Guttmacher Institute do not count that as abortion.

So yes, in counting one way, abortions are down, but are they?  All depends how you count and what you count.


The Conference of US Catholic Bishops also has some significant trouble with some of your conclusions

http://usccb.org/prolife/issues/contraception/contrafactsheet0207.shtml

[d6]

I could go on, but you get the idea.   We have given "people", typically young, immature, people the easy way out on relationships, sex, pregnancy, relationships in general, etc.  It has caused untold harm on the family unit as well as the very moral fabric a society needs when placing value on the family, children, etc.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.  The fact that repeat abortions go up does not mean that individuals do not grapple with the decision (maybe those individuals who have repeat abortions do not, but who's to say they would have if laws were more stringent.....that's all conjecture on either of our parts).  As for divorce, just because marriages stayed together decades ago doesn't mean that that was a good thing.  In fact, many abusive marriages, loveless marriages, dysfunctional marriages, etc. remained intact because of societal and religious pressures.  That, from my perspective, is not beneficial to children and/or families.  I think we just see the world from different perspectives. 

[Hards Alumni]

That all depends on who is counting and what you are counting.  Is the morning after pill considered abortion in your mind?  A lot of people say it is, yet it's not counted as an abortion yet in reality, that medication is destroying a fertilized egg.   The CDC as well as Guttmacher Institute do not count that as abortion.

So yes, in counting one way, abortions are down, but are they?  All depends how you count and what you count.


The Conference of US Catholic Bishops also has some significant trouble with some of your conclusions

http://usccb.org/prolife/issues/contraception/contrafactsheet0207.shtml

The morning after pill is not any more an abortion than taking regular birth control.

Also, Chicos, the second (or even day) people have sex doesn't mean the baby will be concieved that day.  Sperm cells can live in a female for up to 3 days. 

[MUeagle05]

The morning after pill is not any more an abortion than taking regular birth control.

Also, Chicos, the second (or even day) people have sex doesn't mean the baby will be concieved that day.  Sperm cells can live in a female for up to 3 days. 

Actually, the morning-after pill is very different and can terminate a pregnancy (otherwise known as an abortion) by preventing implantation.

[Hards Alumni]

Actually, the morning-after pill is very different and can terminate a pregnancy (otherwise known as an abortion) by preventing implantation.

I'm just going to stop now before we get in an argument about when life starts etc.  I hope you can manage to do the same.

[shiloh26]

Actually, the morning-after pill is very different and can terminate a pregnancy (otherwise known as an abortion) by preventing implantation.

The morning after pill is not very different... its just a larger dose of estrogen that is in normal birth control, to prevent implantation of a descended egg if it is fertilized.  I know that isn't what you were probably getting at, just take it for what it is... I didn't know what it was until my girlfriend told me and I thought other people might not know what it is either.