The Roster of a Contender?

[Marquette84]

84 - We all know you are the staunchest of staunch Tom Crean supporters - along with Chicos.  I can appreciate what Tom Crean did in his time at MU, but the reality is take away D-Wade and his accomplishments would have placed him a rung below Al McGuire and Kevin O'Neill. 

First, I love your one-sided application of the "If not for Dwyane Wade  . . ." logic.

By this logic, Tony Miller is the only reason O'Neill isn't a peg below Bob Dukiet.  Without Miller, O'Neill managed to coach a team with Jim McIlvaine, Damon Key, Robb Logtermann, Trevor Powell, and Ron Curry to an 11-18 record in the mighty MCC. Tell you what--compare Crean's record without Wade to O'Neill's without Miller, and its not even close.

BTW, I wonder what Buzz's record at MU would be without DJO or Butler?  Probably a hell of a lot worse that we actually had this year. 

And are you really going to argue that beating Kentucky in 2008 was a signature win?? 
Kentucky was what..an 11 that year?  Weren't we a 6 that lost to Stanford the 3 in Round 2 in 2008? 

No.  I'm said that Utah State was Buzz's signature NCAA win.  In fact, his only win.

I compared Buzz's signature win to Crean's rather pedestrian win over Kentucky in 2008:  Which was more impressive?   Here's my point--that signature NCAA win of Buzz's not only doesn't measure up to beating #1 Kentucky in 2003--it doesn't even measure up to beating 2008 Kentucky! 

So your claim that Buzz has already accomplished more is false.  Not only has he not duplicated the Final Four--he hasn't surpassed 2008.  And then lets compare this year to Crean's 2008.  Interestingly, Washington in 2010 and Kentucky in 2008 were both 11 seeds.   Which coach won his matchup?

You claim Crean's performance in the NCAA was pretty poor?  Fine.  If beating an 11 then losing to a 3 on a last second prayer is "poor", what do you call losing to the 11 in the first round? 

And keep in mind we had D James + Barro that year.  Other than the Final Four team, Tom Crean's performance in the NCAA tourney was pretty poor.  The fact Buzz got us to the tourney this past season is a huge accomplishment - considering what was left at MU after Crean left.

So just how do we consider what Crean left at MU given that they were dispersed to Miami-Data/Minnesota, Kansas, Iowa State, and Northeastern after Crean left? 

So Crean had Barro and James.  Buzz had Butler and Buycks and DJO.  I'd call that at least even if not advantage to Buzz.  I mean honestly--you must be the only person on earth who would put forth the argument that Barro was a better player than Butler and DJO. 

Why do you keep saying it was such a "huge accomplishment" to make the tournament this year?  Did you forget the fact that we reloaded with two first team JUCOs from 2009 year, and a 2nd teamer and honorable mention from 2008?  Add in a top 10 all-time scorer returning, and an underrrated PG who happened to put up a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio in major minutes against five the 8 best teams in the previous season. 

You seem to want a double standard--DJO, Butler and Buycks are examples of the outstanding talent Buzz recruits. . . .until someone wants to set expectations based on them, you know, living up to their reputations. . . .THEEENNNN those same outstanding recruits turn into stumblebums who actually suck so bad that its only a coaching miracle could get us to the NCAA tournament.

You can't have it both ways.  You're arguing that players like DJO and Buycks are simultaneously outstanding (supporting the "strong recruiting" argument) and lousy (to support the "winning was a huge accomplishment" argument). 

[duanewade]

I'm going to say no only because I know how competitive Buzz is and how he loves to prove the "experts" wrong.

Unlike the chronic negativity of this board that thought we'd win 6 big east games last year I believed in last years team and I believe that Buzz is building something very special that will make a run at a national title over the next 2-3 years and make a huge statement to the nation as payback for the Big Ten's greed in trying to destroy the Big East and Marquette.

Butler almost did it with half the talent Marquette will have....Buzz is a future legend so get ready for a great/fun ride. 

[Tugg Speedman]

Since I absolutely thrive upon putting the cart about two miles in front of the horse, I had a thought this morning about the Gardner signing... is he the missing piece?

Consider this: You have an absolute beast coming in who has size and skill (Gardner).  You have another big in Otule who, if he is progressing as many have said, will be a solid contributor on at least the defensive end.  Jae may very well be Lazar 2.0 if he can score on demand.  Blue and Cadougan will be a two-headed monster at the point (and 2), each with a different skill set.  DJO is, well... DJO (need I say more?).  Give these guys a full year to get it together, and what happens after that?

In 2011-12, MU's is going to return a defensive C, two PF's who can score, two guys who can run the point and penetrate, and a threat from downtown.  Not to mention a bench of further refined talent, and possibly another impact freshman or two.

Is the ceiling high enough to make a return trip to Nola in 2012, or is Buzz still missing a few pieces?

The problem with this kind of unrealistic thinking is you'll get sorely disappointed when he performs like a three-star recruit. In other words, you will not give him a chance.

Then we will have 2000 thousand threads next spring about how Buzz needs to recruit big.

[GGGG]

As you know I'm a big Buzz fan.  Very true.  But, I wouldn't call it knee jerking to point out that Buzz has been here 2 years so far, and after just 2 years he has already matched what Tom Crean accomplished (sans a Final Four appearance) in 9 years. 

That's a pretty big "sans."  Mike McCarthy has accomplished everything that Mike Holmgren has (sans a Super Bowl).

[jsglow]

Programs get built over time.  Each and every year that a Buzz coached team performs well, the stands fill a little more, the wins come a little easier and the recruiting improves.  Could everything come together under a great Vander year in say 2011-12? Sure.  But that takes lots falling into place. 

Realistically, Buzz is building a double bye program.  Once you do that, you get a shot at more 5 star kids.  Once you are a relatively consistant double bye, a Final 4 run is a reasonable possibility. 

Me, I'm pleased with the strong prospect for NCAA every year with a good shot at Sweet 16.  If we do that, the program is in great historical shape. 

[NersEllenson]

I compared Buzz's signature win to Crean's rather pedestrian win over Kentucky in 2008:  Which was more impressive?   Here's my point--that signature NCAA win of Buzz's not only doesn't measure up to beating #1 Kentucky in 2003--it doesn't even measure up to beating 2008 Kentucky! 

So your claim that Buzz has already accomplished more is false.  Not only has he not duplicated the Final Four--he hasn't surpassed 2008.  And then lets compare this year to Crean's 2008.  Interestingly, Washington in 2010 and Kentucky in 2008 were both 11 seeds.   Which coach won his matchup?


84 - Your logic is so flawed I'm not going to try to even justify all the points you try to make.  Bottom line is Tom Crean was lucked into a Final Four with a once a century player - Wade.  Hell Tom Crean got beat by Tulsa with DWade in 2002 as a 5 seed.  Tom Crean also got beat by Michigan State and Alabama in the first rounds of the tourney.  Just as Buzz won as a 6 against Utah State, Tom Crean won as a 6 against Kentucky.  Both teams lost to the 3 seed in the next round in heartbreakers.

And Buzz didn't have DJO or Buycks or Dominic James on his team in 2009 NCAA - whereas Crean had the Big 3 + Barro and still couldn't get it done against Stanford.

At the end of the day, you will always find reasons to defend Tom Crean.  I have no problem with placing him as on par with Kevin O"Neill as the 3rd best coaches in MU history.  Buzz will definitely rank as MU's best coach since McGuire if not already, within a couple of years.

[mviale]

• If Jimmy Butler continues his rise and turns into Lazar (18 ppg, 7 rpg) and contends for First Team All-Big East...
  
• If Darius Johnson-Odom can take over as a dominant scorer both inside and out with consistency and average 20 ppg...
  
• If Jae Crowder is indeed the second coming of Lazar, and can average 15 ppg/6 rpg as a junior, likely being named Newcomer of the Year in the BEast...
  
• If all the hype about Chris Otule isn't just hype, and he can play 30 mpg, run the floor, defend, and rebound...
  
• If Junior Cadougan can step in to play 30 mpg with a 2.5 assist-to-turnover ratio...
  
• If two of either Joe Fulce, Erik Williams, and Jamail Jones can provide solid minutes off the bench to take the pressure off Butler and Crowder, while providing some scoring and quality defending...
  
• If one of Vander Blue, Dwight Buycks, or DJ Newbill can prove to have an efficient enough handle to play 8-10 mpg at the point...
  
• If two of either Blue, Buycks, and Newbill can provide solid minutes off the bench, including legitimate shooting depth for late game situations and not turning the ball over...
  
• If Mbao and Gardner can combine for 8-10 minutes off the bench of solid defense and rebounding...
  
  IF all of those things come to pass, then yes, I think we can start thinking about a possible Final Four run. I think we need a bench that reliably goes to 9-10 deep, we need Butler and DJO to both be candidates for First Team All-Big East, and we need two more players who will average 10 ppg, likely Crowder and someone off the bench.
  
  The other key factor is to contend for a title (which pretty much every Final Four team is doing) you generally need those three star performers, the three NBA level talents. Crean had that with Wade, Diener, and Novak. I'd say that Buzz even had that last year with Matthews, Hayward, and McNeal, though the fourth man, James, proved key when he went down with injury and the team collapsed. Could DJO morph into Ben Gordon? Could Vander Blue develop into our next Dwyane Wade? Could Butler or Crowder prove to have that necessary punch to put us over the top? The answer to all these questions, and to all of the ifs above, are yes. But unless they all come up yes this year, I think we should focus on the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 as reasonable targets.

Love our chances!

[Marquette84]

Bottom line is Tom Crean was lucked into a Final Four with a once a century player - Wade. 

Again with the "if not for Dwaye Wade . . . ." argument.

I wonder if Al wins a national championship without Butch Lee?
I wonder if O'Neill gets to an NCAA tournament without Tony Miller?
I wonder if Buzz beats Utah State without inheriting 4 of MU's top 10 leading scorers of all time?

We don't ask those questions of any other coach--just Crean.

Just curious--are you going to turn on Buzz if Vander Blue turns into the next Dwyane Wade?  If Blue is a special player and takes us to a Final Four, can we expect to see you make the same "Buzz lucked into a Final Four with Blue" argument?   

I hardly think so.  So why do you do so with Crean?

Hell Tom Crean got beat by Tulsa with DWade in 2002 as a 5 seed.  Tom Crean also got beat by Michigan State and Alabama in the first rounds of the tourney.  Just as Buzz won as a 6 against Utah State, Tom Crean won as a 6 against Kentucky.  Both teams lost to the 3 seed in the next round in heartbreakers.

And none of this refutes the point that barely beating Utah State in 2009 isn't nearly as impressive as the shellacking put on Kentucky the year before.  Not to mention getting to the Final Four.

Therefore, your logic that Buzz has already accomplished more is simply not true--its wishful thinking on your part.

At the end of the day, you will always find reasons to defend Tom Crean.  I have no problem with placing him as on par with Kevin O"Neill as the 3rd best coaches in MU history.  Buzz will definitely rank as MU's best coach since McGuire if not already, within a couple of years.

Your comment that single NCAA victory (over Utah State) qualifies Buzz as the 2nd best coach in Marquette history is laughable.

Lets call it what it is: You don't like Crean and wish Buzz's accomplishments were more impressive because you like Buzz better.  But wishing it to be true doesn't make it true.

By any objective basis, Buzz's level of accomplishment doesn't match Crean's yet.  Maybe someday he'll get there--but not yet.

[cheebs09]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we put a shellacking on Kentucky in Crean's last year. I thought it was a close game with Crawford (I think Crawford) having one heck of a game against us and we finally got it to a comfortable margin in the last minute, if we even did that, but I remember being awfully nervous that game.

As for always saying "If Crean didn't have D-Wade", I can't say much about the other coaches, but Al's greatest accomplishment was the National Championship, but there were a lot of great years in there, including another Final Four run. I think the discrediting Crean due to the D-Wade year is that we never really got close to that level any other years. There were multiple first round exits. Our best finish outside of that year is the second round, including following up the Final Four with two NITs. I think if Crean got us to a Sweet Sixteen or two in addition to the Final Four, nobody would use any stat that started with "well outside of the 03 year." Could be wrong, but just my opinion on the matter.

I love Buzz and I think he will take us higher than Crean did more consistently. It is crazy hard to get to a Final Four so he may never reach that (many very good coaches don't), but I think Buzz can get us to being in the Sweet Sixteen once every few years with the chance for a run. Crean's tenure is over, we know what he has done. Buzz is just starting and seems to be a talented coach. People are excited about the unknown because there are the possibilities for greatness. Granted Buzz could flame out in a few years, but that potential for greatness excites people and may lead them to overvalue Buzz's contributions so far.

[brewcity77]

Flat out, it's too early to compare Crean and Williams in regards to their respective resumes. Crean did accomplish the Final Four with Wade, but he also sent four of his recruited players to the NBA (if you include Matthews, whom he did bring in). Now there was a lot of disappointment with Crean as well, most notably around March and the following months (what with the annual "where's he going" rumors) but at the end of the day, he put us back on the map. His Final Four was worth more than all the combined appearances (Sweet 16 included) since the early 1980s combined.

And then he left. And let's be honest, while we might have been a bit upset at the way he went, were we really that sad to see him go? In the two years since, we have seen Buzz take us to a top ten ranking for much of the season and a second round appearance, and a team that wasn't expected to produce much showed that it had more talent than most people gave credit for and reach the tournament.

So now we are in a position where we are on the map, and for the most part, have a coach we like and respect. So what if it took us two guys to get there? Constantly griping about Crean will get us nowhere. He came, he did some good, he left. Now Buzz is here, hopefully he will do more good, and in 5 years or so we can start to fairly compare the two of them.

EDIT: And regarding the Kentucky win, they narrowed the gap to 2 points with 24 seconds to play, but Wesley Matthews hit 8 free throws in the final minute to put the game away. The 8 point margin looks good, but it was by no means a shellacking. And UK finished the season 18-13, and only made the tourney by winning 11 of their last 14 to get in. They weren't an incredibly underrated 11 seed, and in most years, probably wouldn't have even gotten into the Big Dance.

[NersEllenson]

And none of this refutes the point that barely beating Utah State in 2009 isn't nearly as impressive as the shellacking put on Kentucky the year before.  Not to mention getting to the Final Four.

Therefore, your logic that Buzz has already accomplished more is simply not true--its wishful thinking on your part.


Your comment that single NCAA victory (over Utah State) qualifies Buzz as the 2nd best coach in Marquette history is laughable.

Lets call it what it is: You don't like Crean and wish Buzz's accomplishments were more impressive because you like Buzz better.  But wishing it to be true doesn't make it true.

By any objective basis, Buzz's level of accomplishment doesn't match Crean's yet.  Maybe someday he'll get there--but not yet.

84 once again you trying to defend TC is ridiculous when you make statements like the "shellacking we put on Kentucky," when we won by 8, but were up 2 with just 24 seconds.  And as for why Crean lucked into a Final Four with D-Wade..I say that because Wade was lightly recruited, Crean wasn't even his primary recruiter..Crean basically took a flyer on Wade.  A great one at that.  Vander Blue on the other hand was a consensus Top 30 recruit nationally..he should be good..and if he is..that won't surprise anyone nearly as much as what Wade did.  Who did Crean beat out for Wade's services?  Bradley?  When did Crean assemble back to back Top 20 rated recruiting classes?  Never.  In fact I don't think he ever assembled a Top 20 class in 9 years.  Buzz is 2 for 2.

And 84, Buzz is 2 for 2 in NCAA appearances.  Crean was what, 5 for 9.  If you want to compare Crean and Buzz fairly, lets judge their first 2 years..okay, maybe not fair.  But point is give Buzz 7 more years and he will have just as many, and quite possibly many more NCAA tourney wins than Crean had.  Crean won a total of 5 games in the NCAA tourney in 9 years as coach.  Buzz has to get 4 more wins in the next 7 years. 

Also would you address us losing to Tulsa, a 12 seed, when we had Dwayne Wade?  What about the shellacking we took from Michigan State - weren't we down 17-0 in that game...even with 3 of MU's top 10 scorers of all time?  Buzz got us past Utah State with Dominic James - why couldn't Tommy get us past Michigan State without Jerel?

[RawdogDX]

Haha, you just compared Michigan State to Utah State.  Which one goes to a final four every other year?

[Dawson Rental]

Not too excited about Gardner. If we can smear the bball with barbeque sauce, then we might have something. If he went to a big10 school, it might have made more sense since pace would be a better fit. I cant remember too many centers in the BE that couldnt run with their team (Blair, maybe). Guys this big never hold up for 4 years - knees will be shot.

For God's sake no!!  Gardner is said to possess good passing skills, but your plan could turn him into the next Kevin Willis.  Remember Jesus' words regarding Willis during Jesus' time in the NBA as chronicled by The Onion.  "Kevin Willis, why has thou forsaken me?"

[GGGG]

84 once again you trying to defend TC is ridiculous when you make statements like the "shellacking we put on Kentucky," when we won by 8, but were up 2 with just 24 seconds.  And as for why Crean lucked into a Final Four with D-Wade..I say that because Wade was lightly recruited, Crean wasn't even his primary recruiter..Crean basically took a flyer on Wade.  A great one at that.  Vander Blue on the other hand was a consensus Top 30 recruit nationally..he should be good..and if he is..that won't surprise anyone nearly as much as what Wade did.  Who did Crean beat out for Wade's services?  Bradley?  When did Crean assemble back to back Top 20 rated recruiting classes?  Never.  In fact I don't think he ever assembled a Top 20 class in 9 years.  Buzz is 2 for 2.

Recruiting isn't the end game.  On floor results are.  Crean got us further than Buzz has so far.

And that Final Four team had four, top 100 recruits.  It wasn't just Wade.

[LON]

Haha, you just compared Michigan State to Utah State.  Which one goes to a final four every other year?

Stew "The Legend" Morrill is not to be underestimated.  Ever.

[4everwarriors]

Crean's ass got schooled pretty good in that 8/9 match-up vs. Izzo. Yes, I know Jerel was out with hand surgery. There were those who insisted we were worthy of a higher seed sans the injury.

[wojosdojo]

Does anyone have an estimation on the win total for next year? I believe in October crackedsidewalks estimated 25. 25 is the number MU had with Rel DJ and Wes (also Zar) their last two seasons. Said that is 25 a longshot, reasonable, or expected? With all the questions lingering, does anyone know?

[bilsu]

Recruiting isn't the end game.  On floor results are.  Crean got us further than Buzz has so far.

And that Final Four team had four, top 100 recruits.  It wasn't just Wade.

I have a feeling that D. Wade would have loved playing in Buzz's offense. Crean's success has a lot to do with Wade when Wade was here and the after effects of the success he had with Wade. It would be interesting to see where both MU and Crean would be today, if Wade had not shown up at MU. Remember Wade was a partial qualifier and the Big East does not allow partial qualifiers.

[NersEllenson]

Recruiting isn't the end game.  On floor results are.  Crean got us further than Buzz has so far.

And that Final Four team had four, top 100 recruits.  It wasn't just Wade.

Who were the 4 Top 100 recruits on the Final Four Team?  All I can think of is Diener, Merritt, and Novak.  Wade wasn't a Top 100 kid...which is why I posted earlier, we got lucky with him..because he was severly underrated and wasn't recruited that hard by many programs.  And I think we all can agree that without d-Wade it didn't matter a bit that we had the above Top 100 kids on the roster.  Diener saved us against Holy Cross as we barely beat them..but..he also had the benefit of being set up to shoot due to all of the playmaking of D-Wade. Same held true for Novak that year.  D-Wade's NBA accomplishments speak to his greatness.

Lastly, Tom Crean had the benefit of playing in C-USA, and by virtue of that we chalked up great records, and got better seeds in the NCAA than we've gotten as a Big East member.  We were a 5 and 3 in his first two NCAA appearances as a Conference USA school. 

[GGGG]

Who were the 4 Top 100 recruits on the Final Four Team?  All I can think of is Diener, Merritt, and Novak.  Wade wasn't a Top 100 kid...which is why I posted earlier, we got lucky with him..because he was severly underrated and wasn't recruited that hard by many programs.  And I think we all can agree that without d-Wade it didn't matter a bit that we had the above Top 100 kids on the roster.  Diener saved us against Holy Cross as we barely beat them..but..he also had the benefit of being set up to shoot due to all of the playmaking of D-Wade. Same held true for Novak that year.  D-Wade's NBA accomplishments speak to his greatness.

Lastly, Tom Crean had the benefit of playing in C-USA, and by virtue of that we chalked up great records, and got better seeds in the NCAA than we've gotten as a Big East member.  We were a 5 and 3 in his first two NCAA appearances as a Conference USA school. 

Robert Jackson.

I have no idea why fans like you want to minimize MU's biggest basketball accomplishment of the last 33 years.  I've heard it all...it was only one player...Kentucky was overrated...we played in a weak conference...  All because people don't like the coach.

It's pathetic really.

[HouWarrior]

• If Jimmy Butler continues his rise and turns into Lazar (18 ppg, 7 rpg) and contends for First Team All-Big East...
  
• If Darius Johnson-Odom can take over as a dominant scorer both inside and out with consistency and average 20 ppg...
  
• If Jae Crowder is indeed the second coming of Lazar, and can average 15 ppg/6 rpg as a junior, likely being named Newcomer of the Year in the BEast...
  
• If all the hype about Chris Otule isn't just hype, and he can play 30 mpg, run the floor, defend, and rebound...
  
• If Junior Cadougan can step in to play 30 mpg with a 2.5 assist-to-turnover ratio...
  
• If two of either Joe Fulce, Erik Williams, and Jamail Jones can provide solid minutes off the bench to take the pressure off Butler and Crowder, while providing some scoring and quality defending...
  
• If one of Vander Blue, Dwight Buycks, or DJ Newbill can prove to have an efficient enough handle to play 8-10 mpg at the point...
  
• If two of either Blue, Buycks, and Newbill can provide solid minutes off the bench, including legitimate shooting depth for late game situations and not turning the ball over...
  
• If Mbao and Gardner can combine for 8-10 minutes off the bench of solid defense and rebounding...
  
  IF all of those things come to pass, then yes, I think we can start thinking about a possible Final Four run. I think we need a bench that reliably goes to 9-10 deep, we need Butler and DJO to both be candidates for First Team All-Big East, and we need two more players who will average 10 ppg, likely Crowder and someone off the bench.
  
  The other key factor is to contend for a title (which pretty much every Final Four team is doing) you generally need those three star performers, the three NBA level talents. Crean had that with Wade, Diener, and Novak. I'd say that Buzz even had that last year with Matthews, Hayward, and McNeal, though the fourth man, James, proved key when he went down with injury and the team collapsed. Could DJO morph into Ben Gordon? Could Vander Blue develop into our next Dwyane Wade? Could Butler or Crowder prove to have that necessary punch to put us over the top? The answer to all these questions, and to all of the ifs above, are yes. But unless they all come up yes this year, I think we should focus on the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 as reasonable targets.

I apologize for my separate thread/post which I put up today before reading this--I totally agree that until you have NBA level on the team, you cant consider you have a final four team.
Right now only DJO shows enough of something special(quick first step, explosiveness to basket, etc) to get attention from the NBA.
Wait until you hear NBA scouts ID at least one of our players as likely, then begin to talk final four--not before.

[NersEllenson]

Robert Jackson.

I have no idea why fans like you want to minimize MU's biggest basketball accomplishment of the last 33 years.  I've heard it all...it was only one player...Kentucky was overrated...we played in a weak conference...  All because people don't like the coach.

It's pathetic really.

This is a fair point.  Hey, I was excited as could be at the time, and went to NOLA for the Final Four, only to see the team with 3 NBA players on it - Wade, Diener, Novak + 2 Top 100 recruits in Robert Jackson and Scott Merritt, get embarrased and ran off the floor.  With that kind of talent there is ZERO reason a team should lose by 40 points, if you have a coach who has any real coaching talent.  It was a great run, but D-Wade had more to do with that than Tom Crean, and Tom Crean lucked into D-Wade.  Hell what did Travis Diener and Steve Novak accomplish together?

I appreciate what Tom Crean did while here, but also recognize that beyond lightning striking in the form of D-wade, Tom Crean was a very mediocre coach and recruiter.  there is no reason he shouldn't be landing 4 and 5 star kids at the storied Indiana prgram, considering how much playing time he has to offer...and how much talent is in Indiana...yet he can't even get a Top 20 ranked class.

[Doctor V]

This is a fair point.  Hey, I was excited as could be at the time, and went to NOLA for the Final Four, only to see the team with 3 NBA players on it - Wade, Diener, Novak + 2 Top 100 recruits in Robert Jackson and Scott Merritt, get embarrased and ran off the floor.  With that kind of talent there is ZERO reason a team should lose by 40 points, if you have a coach who has any real coaching talent.  It was a great run, but D-Wade had more to do with that than Tom Crean, and Tom Crean lucked into D-Wade.  Hell what did Travis Diener and Steve Novak accomplish together?

I appreciate what Tom Crean did while here, but also recognize that beyond lightning striking in the form of D-wade, Tom Crean was a very mediocre coach and recruiter.  there is no reason he shouldn't be landing 4 and 5 star kids at the storied Indiana prgram, considering how much playing time he has to offer...and how much talent is in Indiana...yet he can't even get a Top 20 ranked class.

This is utterly ridiculous. Its truly sad to see that some let their hatred of one man, whether right or wrong, cloud their judgement. To take the Final 4 game and use it as an example of a coach having NO coaching talent is a JOKE. Everyone knows MU got embarrassed, but I would not trade that season, or the coach that came with it, for anything

You do not talk about the Elite 8 game in Minneapolis, by far the best game I have EVER seen Marquette play. Who coached that game? No matter how much talent MU had, that Kentucky team was stacked, and everyone in that arena knew that it would take a special game from MU to win, including a well coached game.

Listen, I do not like the way the guy left and I do not think he was a great recruiter or a great in game adjustments coach. However, what he did for the University is special in MANY, MANY WAYS. I could care less if you hate his guts, I just cannot stand when people let personal hatred cloud rational judgement

[NersEllenson]

This is utterly ridiculous. Its truly sad to see that some let their hatred of one man, whether right or wrong, cloud their judgement. To take the Final 4 game and use it as an example of a coach having NO coaching talent is a JOKE. Everyone knows MU got embarrassed, but I would not trade that season, or the coach that came with it, for anything

You do not talk about the Elite 8 game in Minneapolis, by far the best game I have EVER seen Marquette play. Who coached that game? No matter how much talent MU had, that Kentucky team was stacked, and everyone in that arena knew that it would take a special game from MU to win, including a well coached game.

Listen, I do not like the way the guy left and I do not think he was a great recruiter or a great in game adjustments coach. However, what he did for the University is special in MANY, MANY WAYS. I could care less if you hate his guts, I just cannot stand when people let personal hatred cloud rational judgement

I think you should edit the "However, what he did for the University is special in MANY,MANY WAYS.  To read:  What Dwyane Wade did for the university is special in many, many ways.  It was a great season for sure, I'm not disputing that.  Just as you mentioned you do not think he was a great recruiter or great coach - that's all my point in all of this has been.  Period.  I don't really hate Tom Crean on any level and can appreciate what he did while at MU...that said, we have a better Coach here now in Buzz Williams - and I think that will be Tom crean's biggest contribution to MU basketball in the long run - hiring Buzz Williams, and then leaving MU 1-year later.

[muchalktalk]

I try to refrain from getting into these arguments, but Ners, your posts are getting ridiculous.  Are you in any way related to Buzz; he got the job by the way.

I honestly think if Buzz read your posts he would tell you to quit.  You come across as a guy trying to glorify Coach's 2 years to overcompensate for some shortcomings you see.  Coach walked into a great situation at MU, much better than the situation Crean walked into here.

I love how "fans" like you say that Wade was the only reason Crean had any success.  I am sure the rest of the players are appreciative of your support (my guess is that they don't give a rip what you say).  Another thing, how did Crean, who supposedly couldn't recruit or coach, win so many games at MU?

I did not like the way Crean left, but to minimize his accomplishments is nuts.  I hope Buzz does take MU to a higher level, but to say he is already better than Crean is reaching.  He won with Crean's players; now we will see how we do with his.

If one wanted to be the anti-Ners, one could say that the only reason we made the tourney this year is because the Big East had a down year.  One could also argue that Buzz's 2009 class was overrated, given the performance of some of our recruits (besides he already lost one of the top recruits of the group).  One could whine that Buzz got lucky that Blue fell into his lap after he had a falling out with UW, since he wanted to stay close to home.  All of this would sound like sour grapes - - good then you get my point.