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Author Topic: Future of The Big East  (Read 5499 times)

Maryland Warrior

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Future of The Big East
« on: May 03, 2010, 01:37:59 PM »

In the May 3 edition of The  Washington Post Liz Clarke, who covers Georgetown but also stands quite knowledgeable in  college hoops trends , particularly BE, contributed a  thoughtful piece on the Conference' future in light of the gobble mode the Big Ten and other pigskin "swells" currently operate. Buzz,Wright and Bonhiem all contribute...they seemed concerned without being particularly worried.
Charles Currie,SJ, who leads the Association of Jesuit and Catholic Universities provides some intersting historical perspective. I'm sure its on line

Aughnanure

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“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

ManeCity83

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2010, 02:34:14 PM »
Buzz,Wright and Bonhiem all contribute...they seemed concerned without being particularly worried.

Good article, but I didn't see a Buzz reference.
Mr. Wojo Risin'

radome

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2010, 02:41:27 PM »
Concerned but not worried seems like the best way to describe this. Conf USA was pretty good until it collapsed with our and other departures. We will land in a good basketball conference. Will it be as good as the BE? Probably not, but good nonetheless.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 07:16:34 AM by radome »

goodgreatgrand

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2010, 02:51:52 PM »
Maybe. A football-less BE will be a bit underwhelming. There isnt anything great about SJU, Prov, SH or DePaul. I cant say I rush to turn on a game that includes any of those two schools. They have been irrelevant for years. Maybe a less competitive conference will help them, but I doubt it. The best players will always want to play the best.

And, yes. 'Concerned but not worried' makes sense. There is nothing basketball-only schools can do. The B10 is in the drivers seat with the BE football schools not far behind. We'll get what's left.

hoyasincebirth

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2010, 11:37:01 AM »
One issue is with A catholic only school league probably would not work for Georgetown. We have too many sports that other schools do not. Georgetown fields 27 sports teams. We need to be in a league that will allow us to continue to field these programs. I'm not saying we won't end up in that situation. But I think it's a lot worse case scenario for Georgetown than it is for some of the other Non football schools in the big east. If Georgetown was offered a spot to go with the Football schools and leave the rest of the catholic schools behind they'd do it in a second.

Clarence

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2010, 11:58:34 AM »
It seems to me that the game changer here is the Big Ten network.  The BTN is a powerhouse revenue producer and is putting teams not involved at a competitve disadvantage.  Even the always Money conscious Notre Dame squad with their one of a kind NBC contract pails in comparison to the $ coming out of the BTN.  The easy solution to me is to start a Big East network, that also broadcasts Notre Dame football.  With the Big East media markets and Notre Daem football, I would assume it will be pupming out similar revenue if not more than the BTN. I understand it takes a giant leap of faith to walk away from lucrative deals like Notre Dame's NBC contract or The Big east's basketball deal with ESPN, but didn't it take the same type of risk for Delaney and the Big Ten to launch the BTN. 

goodgreatgrand

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2010, 12:14:52 PM »
One issue is with A catholic only school league probably would not work for Georgetown. We have too many sports that other schools do not. Georgetown fields 27 sports teams. We need to be in a league that will allow us to continue to field these programs. I'm not saying we won't end up in that situation. But I think it's a lot worse case scenario for Georgetown than it is for some of the other Non football schools in the big east. If Georgetown was offered a spot to go with the Football schools and leave the rest of the catholic schools behind they'd do it in a second.

Im sure if any non-football school was offered the opportunity, they would make the jump as well. However, you are only saying that gtown has a sports program. Do those 27 teams make at least 22 MM per year to justify a B10 invitation? No. Im guessing most of those teams actually lose money and are subsidized by bball. Are all of those teams div 1-a, or are some club? I think a non-football school even with a lot of teams is further down the list of candidates than ANY schools that have football. In other words, I would put Memphis and UCF WAY ahead of Gtown in a candidate list (no matter how bad those football programs are).

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2010, 12:17:18 PM »
It seems to me that the game changer here is the Big Ten network.  The BTN is a powerhouse revenue producer and is putting teams not involved at a competitve disadvantage.  Even the always Money conscious Notre Dame squad with their one of a kind NBC contract pails in comparison to the $ coming out of the BTN.  The easy solution to me is to start a Big East network, that also broadcasts Notre Dame football.  With the Big East media markets and Notre Daem football, I would assume it will be pupming out similar revenue if not more than the BTN. I understand it takes a giant leap of faith to walk away from lucrative deals like Notre Dame's NBC contract or The Big east's basketball deal with ESPN, but didn't it take the same type of risk for Delaney and the Big Ten to launch the BTN. 

This sounds very logical.  I like watching Marquette play road games in my backyard.

I know Paul Tagliabue was hired as a Big East consultant.  Is he the one who introduced the NFL TV Network?  

hoyasincebirth

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2010, 01:13:46 PM »
Im sure if any non-football school was offered the opportunity, they would make the jump as well. However, you are only saying that gtown has a sports program. Do those 27 teams make at least 22 MM per year to justify a B10 invitation? No. Im guessing most of those teams actually lose money and are subsidized by bball. Are all of those teams div 1-a, or are some club? I think a non-football school even with a lot of teams is further down the list of candidates than ANY schools that have football. In other words, I would put Memphis and UCF WAY ahead of Gtown in a candidate list (no matter how bad those football programs are).

First of all no I was not including club sports that's just Division I NCAA sports, although it may include sailing which is not an NCAA sport, but does compete at the highest level of Collegiate competition( several national titles).

My point is there has been some discussion by the BE football schools of taking Us and Nova with them if they were to split off from the BE. I do not think any other conference like the B10 would invite us, but the former BE members might. Yes many of the sports are subsidized by basketball revenue, but several others are very high profile and many more are improving. I think another advantage Nova and Gtown have over the other non football BE schools is that they both actually do have football teams just at the IAA level. Now quite frankly Georgetown is no where close to being able to move up to real football. It's a joke of a program right now. But it exists and has infrastructure already in place.  My point about how many sports we have is the fact that we can not continue all of these sports in a catholic league.  

For example: Marquette has: Men's and women's basketball, Men's and women's soccer, Men's and women's Cross country, Men's and women's track and field, Men's and women's tennis, Men's golf and women's volleyball. Georgetown has all of those sports + women's golf, baseball, softball, men's and women's lacrosse, field hockey, Men's and women's crew, men's and women's sailing, and men's and women's swimming/diving and Football.

Georgetown very much would not want to cut any of these sports, but would be forced to if they joined a catholic only league where most of the athletic departments are like marquette's and field about half the number of sports we do.  I fully believe Georgetown will actively pursue other options before giving up and joining a catholic only league. So i think the assumption that all the remaining catholic schools will band together and all be on board for that is not necessarily true.

I do think BE needs to work to try and stay intact as is though. I think creation of a big east network would be a great step in that direction. I think a BE network would offer a lot of additional revenue for BE teams and might help reduce the desire to leave. It's pretty much too late for this round of defects, but if B10 only takes 1 it doesn't mean we're safe. I think a BE network needs to happen.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 01:16:10 PM by hoyasincebirth »

State Street Warrior

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2010, 02:03:45 PM »
One thing that will have to be considered is what kind of draw you will have for your revenue sport(s).  I think this is a big reason Marquette ended up in the Big East despite not having several of the sports or being a perfect geographic fit.  Now I am not saying putting MU on your schedule instantly makes people come to the game but it beats playing say Fairfield, Hofstra, Quinnipiac and others.  Those are a lot of the schools that you would end up putting in a conference for Lacrosse and I'm guessing field hockey and sailing.  Even someone like James Madison or Johns Hopkins would fit for sports and location but I'm guessing people buying tickets are not going to be as excited for the hoops game (although this is my assumption and local rivalries may be understated in my assumption).

Ultimately I think it could cause a team to be in multiple conferences for revenue and non revenue sports or something none of us have considered or even thought of.  Either way the breaking up of the Big East would be devastating for several schools.

goodgreatgrand

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2010, 02:37:39 PM »
I mix of schools for certain sports is intriguing. Consider LAX: The best programs in the country are Cornell, Syracuse, Johns Hopkins, Maryland, Princeton and UNC. While most of these programs were/are independent in this sport, an actual conference would make this sport much better. Currently, teams are ranked by RPI...which is a complete joke because strength of schedule varies greatly. There will be a lot of instances in which a 4 seed or lower wins the ncaa championship nowadays.

ATWizJr

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2010, 02:41:13 PM »
This sounds very logical.  I like watching Marquette play road games in my backyard.

I know Paul Tagliabue was hired as a Big East consultant.  Is he the one who introduced the NFL TV Network?  

Isn't there already a Big East Network?  Or is that only for BB?

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2010, 03:13:23 PM »
Isn't there already a Big East Network?  Or is that only for BB?

There's a Big East Network on SNY the Met's TV station but they only carry a few Saturday BE football games and Saturday/Sunday afternoon basketball games and some weeknight games.  I don't recall seeing any other Big East sports televised and I think the point being made is it's not like the Big Ten Network which carries all Big Ten sports all the time.

State Street Warrior

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2010, 03:20:17 PM »
I mix of schools for certain sports is intriguing. Consider LAX: The best programs in the country are Cornell, Syracuse, Johns Hopkins, Maryland, Princeton and UNC. While most of these programs were/are independent in this sport, an actual conference would make this sport much better. Currently, teams are ranked by RPI...which is a complete joke because strength of schedule varies greatly. There will be a lot of instances in which a 4 seed or lower wins the ncaa championship nowadays.

Teams like UNC, Maryland, Syracuse and Virginia are not going to join a confrence so they can play Lacrosse.  Also Ivy league schools won't join so you would be left with a lot of smaller schools.  Same thing with swimming and several other sports listed.  If Gtown was to join a confrence to play all the sports they participate in I think they would have to join with schools that would decrease the money raised by basketball.  That is kinda what I was trying to get at. 

goodgreatgrand

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2010, 03:36:19 PM »
My point was that it would be great if different sports could join different conferences. In the case of LAX, I outlined a ridiculously good conference which would eliminate independents.

Aughnanure

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2010, 04:16:44 PM »
My point is there has been some discussion by the BE football schools of taking Us and Nova with them if they were to split off from the BE. I do not think any other conference like the B10 would invite us, but the former BE members might. Yes many of the sports are subsidized by basketball revenue, but several others are very high profile and many more are improving. I think another advantage Nova and Gtown have over the other non football BE schools is that they both actually do have football teams just at the IAA level. Now quite frankly Georgetown is no where close to being able to move up to real football. It's a joke of a program right now. But it exists and has infrastructure already in place.  My point about how many sports we have is the fact that we can not continue all of these sports in a catholic league.  

For example: Marquette has: Men's and women's basketball, Men's and women's soccer, Men's and women's Cross country, Men's and women's track and field, Men's and women's tennis, Men's golf and women's volleyball. Georgetown has all of those sports + women's golf, baseball, softball, men's and women's lacrosse, field hockey, Men's and women's crew, men's and women's sailing, and men's and women's swimming/diving and Football.

Georgetown very much would not want to cut any of these sports, but would be forced to if they joined a catholic only league where most of the athletic departments are like marquette's and field about half the number of sports we do.  I fully believe Georgetown will actively pursue other options before giving up and joining a catholic only league. So i think the assumption that all the remaining catholic schools will band together and all be on board for that is not necessarily true.

I agree GTown and Nova are in much better situations, but with football running the show it will only marginally help, at best. And I understand your concerns about the sports programs, but I don't know why those can't exist outside of this conference (esp Lacrosse, field hockey Football already does, Baseball). I will agree that there needs to be some effort and some pressure put on schools like Marquette to invest into some other programs, especially Lacrosse and Women's Field Hockey and also Swimming/Diving and Women's golf (which really shouldnt be that much of a cost barrier). We aren't doing football, hockey is a daydream unfortunately (even in a place like Milwaukee!), and we aren't sailing.

But why do we keep thinking Catholic-only too? If the realignment is as drastic (4 conferences of 16-20 teams) as some speculate, then why would we go to such a confined number and type of teams (8-10 Catholic schools?). Why shouldn't we do a 16-20 team basketball-only league, and maybe spread out west a little more so MU isn't the furthest west school everytime (a partial reason we wouldnt add programs is the cost factor of flying the golf team and volleyball team, among others, to the east coast all the time).  Butler, Wichita St, Southern Illinois and Missouri St are never talked about here. And the same goes for the east coast schools that are never mentioned but are public schools that are basketball-only but compete in many other sports.

IF there is a VERY drastic change, I would be interested to see something like this (stressing "possible" not "should happen" or even "makes-sense"):

A conference made up of 3 divisions of 8-10 teams spanning east to west coast that could make up for its small lack of a large state fanbase by being in most major metro areas and being relevant across the country. So 1: Marquette, Creighton, DePaul, Butler, etc 2: GTown, Nova, St. John's, Xavier, etc 3. Gonzaga, St. Mary's, basically the WCC (they are very good in many other sports), etc. This would mitigate the travel demands as you would still mostly play your division, and may help alleviate the fact that many of the schools dont play the same sports at all, outside of basketball. I know this sounds crazy and probably impossible in a number of ways, but whatever we are hearing about 4 20 team conferences and BCS only basketball tournaments.
“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

hoyasincebirth

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2010, 07:08:56 PM »
I mix of schools for certain sports is intriguing. Consider LAX: The best programs in the country are Cornell, Syracuse, Johns Hopkins, Maryland, Princeton and UNC. While most of these programs were/are independent in this sport, an actual conference would make this sport much better. Currently, teams are ranked by RPI...which is a complete joke because strength of schedule varies greatly. There will be a lot of instances in which a 4 seed or lower wins the ncaa championship nowadays.

Just in regards to this only Hopkins is independent. Cuse Joined the newly formed BE lacrosse this season Princeton and cornell are of course in the ivy league and maryland and UNC are in the ACC for lacrosse( althought the ACC lacrosse only has 4 members).

I doubt a system of playing in 10 different leagues to accommodate all our sports would be preferable, but would definitely be preferable then disbanding sports.  We were in 3 different leagues last year, now were down to 2 with only football being in a different league. However I know some leagues have enacted rules about whether you can be in their league for multiple sports. We're in the patriot league for football. But I know they have a rule that you can only do this for 1 sport or join for all of them, but you couldn't be in it for 2 or 3 sports. I'm not sure how practical and feasible a multi conference affiliation would be.

I agree that if we are going to form a new league we have to look beyond just the catholic schools. Only Gtown, Nova and Marquette have the fan base size to really pull their weight and we'd have to work on incorporating big market areas and teams with large fan bases. Luckily some of our catholic brothers are perfectly positioned i.e st. john's. Basically if we're going to make a new league and survive we pretty much have to pick and choose the best options from the mid majors and put them all under one tent. Pick from the a-10, the CAA, CUSA, Mountain west, missouri valley all of them. That's the only way we could stay competitive with the BCS schools.

Assuming we don't get totally destroyed we need to work extremely hard to make the BE a desirable football conference with revenue on par with  the other leagues. I think a real BE network would help with that. The problem is most of the onus is on the football teams themselves and their fan bases. Despite being "football" schools and having large alumni bases they don't have great followings. Only WV's fans travel well at all. I'm not sure how you fix a problem like that. the NE just isn't college football territory the way the rest of the country is. They care a lot more about pro football then college football. But we need to foster a culture where teams aren't looking to leave first chance they get.

houwarrior

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Re: Future of The Big East
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2010, 07:42:38 PM »


Assuming we don't get totally destroyed we need to work extremely hard to make the BE a desirable football conference with revenue on par with  the other leagues. I think a real BE network would help with that.
I am guessing Paul Tagliabue isnt brought in JUST to put pressure on ND to totally join (incl FB) or leave BE (to stunt B10 into taking ND and leaving BE w/the rest).
He is the most powerful/successful figure in TV contract size in the last 20 years, and BE must be considering a BE TV network. The BE is already in all the top dominant TV markets in USA (except La, Hou and DFW). If ESPN wont up the $ big time, BE could launch on cable w/bigger viewer base than even B10. Good football is needed for success,too.

..but as Mark Twain said Viz the the BE' "rumors of its death are greatly exagerated" ...wait and see what Tags does
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