The weakness of running a system...

[avid1010]

Right...and the idea that "the system" prevents Bo from getting the players is a false one.  He doesn't get the players because he doesn't really like recruiting all that much.

The thought that he could get good players if he wanted to is a joke.  Is it too hard to recruit Vander, Novak, Diener, Mathews, etc...  He can't even get the top talent in the state to play for him.  The system totally prevent Bo from getting players, and Vander clearly made that comment when deciding to go with MU.

[MarquetteDano]

The thought that he could get good players if he wanted to is a joke.  Is it too hard to recruit Vander, Novak, Diener, Mathews, etc...  He can't even get the top talent in the state to play for him.  The system totally prevent Bo from getting players, and Vander clearly made that comment when deciding to go with MU.

I don't know if I buy he just doesn't want to recruit... sounds like classic UW propaganda.  Bo cooled on recruiting!  He isn't that good of a recruiter.  He may not like it... people often don't like things they don't excel at.

I still say you cannot blame the "system" however.  Georgetown's system is not flashy but they get big time recruits.  I think UW could as well... they just don't have big time recruiters anywhere on their bench.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

LOL....to the woodshed


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dyuYom2wbg

and lavin loves the badgers.

[GGGG]

The thought that he could get good players if he wanted to is a joke.  Is it too hard to recruit Vander, Novak, Diener, Mathews, etc...  He can't even get the top talent in the state to play for him.  The system totally prevent Bo from getting players, and Vander clearly made that comment when deciding to go with MU.

1. He has gotten top Wisconsin talent...Marcus Landry, Keaton Nankivil, Tim Jarmuz and Evan Anderson come to mind.  (Ryan wasn't at UW when Diener chose MU BTW.)

2. Vander doesn't have the come to Jesus meeting with UW's academic staff, he might still be wearing red and white next year.

[avid1010]

Marcus Landry, Keaton Nankivil, Tim Jarmuz and Evan Anderson come to mind.  (Ryan wasn't at UW when Diener chose MU BTW.)

Thanks for proving my point for me. 

I had thought Diener could have been part of Bo's first class, was it a year before Bo arrived?  Either way it would be unfair to hold that against him. 

I just can't believe anyone is going to go with the belief that Bo could recruit better players if he simply wanted to.  Not to mention the importance that assistant coaches play in that process.  I don't know many assistants that believe they can move up the coaching ladder without being a strong recruiter.  Like I said, if you really believe Bo could recruit top notch players if he chose to do so, or if you believe he does, we're wasting our time debating it because I simply believe he does not and is not able to.

[MarquetteDano]

1. He has gotten top Wisconsin talent...Marcus Landry, Keaton Nankivil, Tim Jarmuz and Evan Anderson come to mind.  (Ryan wasn't at UW when Diener chose MU BTW.)

2. Vander doesn't have the come to Jesus meeting with UW's academic staff, he might still be wearing red and white next year.

C'mon Sultan... you are a knowledgable poster... getting the top Wisconsin talent isn't enough to win a National Championship.  Tell me you don't believe either of the following two statements:

• If Ryan put his mind to it, he would have a Top 10 recruiting class
• Ryan would have a Top 10 recruiting class if it wasn't for the Harvard-like academic requirements for athletes

The reality is that Ryan isn't a very good recruiter.  And I don't blame the "system" on that

[karavotsos]

Hasnt Boeheim run the same defense for 34 years? 4 final fours, 1 NC.

Hasnt Phil Jackson run the same triangle offense since he's been with the Lakers?

Every coach runs a certain "system." To say he coach doesnt make adjustment is just plain naive. He wouldnt be coaching a B10 program if he didnt adjust during timeouts or halftime. Maybe his players arent executing properly...? You would have no way of knowing unless your head is inside the timeout huddle.

Did you go to the GT games this weekend.  I don't think Paul Hewitt runs a system.  Gottlieb should have talked about the weaknesses of coaches who run no system.

[GGGG]

C'mon Sultan... you are a knowledgable poster... getting the top Wisconsin talent isn't enough to win a National Championship.

I know that.  I was just refuting avid's point that he doesn't get top Wisconsin talent.

[GGGG]

Thanks for proving my point for me. 

I had thought Diener could have been part of Bo's first class, was it a year before Bo arrived?  Either way it would be unfair to hold that against him. 

I just can't believe anyone is going to go with the belief that Bo could recruit better players if he simply wanted to.  Not to mention the importance that assistant coaches play in that process.  I don't know many assistants that believe they can move up the coaching ladder without being a strong recruiter.  Like I said, if you really believe Bo could recruit top notch players if he chose to do so, or if you believe he does, we're wasting our time debating it because I simply believe he does not and is not able to.

OK...I don't mean to say that if he put his mind to it, he could do it better.  I'm not sure he *could* do it better even if he wanted to.  But his recruiting classes are generally filled early (he already has two 2011 verbal commits) which leads me to believe that he would rather settle for a 3 star early than work to get the 4 and 5 stars.  Regardless, I don't think it is "the system" that holds him back.

And I'm sorry, but those four players that I named were all recruited by MU...with the possible exception of Jarmuz.  We went head-to-head with Bo and we lost.

Diener was part of the same HS class as Devin Harris.  I know that Bo "inherited" Harris from Bennett.

[GGGG]

Doug Gottlieb was saying this morning that two good coaches got out coached over the weekend - Bill Self and Bo Ryan.  He talked about Self's staff not having a good game plan for UNI and Bo Ryan not making adjustments to try and stop Cornell.

Here is Gottlieb's direct quote:

"I was dumbfounded by Bo Ryan's attack," Gottlieb continued. "They just basically sat back and tried to play man-to-man defense against Cornell, which had equal, and in this case, better personnel. They shot the hell out of the basketball. It was a clinic. You either had to press or trap or pick up (earlier). Do something other (than man-to-man).

"To me, when you get ready to play a team like Cornell with this great record - they were better than a 12 seed, the 12 seed was kind of a crime - wouldn't you call teams that have beaten them and say, how did you beat them?" Gottlieb said. "Because they lost to Seton Hall. Seton Hall pressed them. They lost to Penn. Penn ran a 1-3-1 the entire game.

"I understand Wisconsin said this is who we are and this is what we do. You had a limited time to prepare for it because you don't know - are you going to play Temple, are you going to play Cornell. They had to worry about Wofford, and Mike Young's team nearly beat them. They were lucky to survive Wofford. But I cannot believe that they never really changed how they were defending Cornell, and Cornell made 16 of 19 shots inside the paint."

[Mayor McCheese]

OK...I don't mean to say that if he put his mind to it, he could do it better.  I'm not sure he *could* do it better even if he wanted to.  But his recruiting classes are generally filled early (he already has two 2011 verbal commits) which leads me to believe that he would rather settle for a 3 star early than work to get the 4 and 5 stars.  Regardless, I don't think it is "the system" that holds him back.

And I'm sorry, but those four players that I named were all recruited by MU...with the possible exception of Jarmuz.  We went head-to-head with Bo and we lost.

Diener was part of the same HS class as Devin Harris.  I know that Bo "inherited" Harris from Bennett.

The reason why MU loses recruits to Wisconsin is because at a young age many kids in this state are given teh impression that Wisconsin is the holy land, and that to make it big in life (whether through athletics or academics) you need to go to Wisconsin-Madison.  Thats why I am proud of the school I teach at, which has in the last two years sent kids playing sports to MU (one in volleyball, one in Track), its a good place to be where Marquette is a highly regarded destination

Bo can recruit... lets face it, he won 4 national championships with UW-Platteville.  Being an alum of the school, it is quite amazing, because there isn't much to sell out there, especially in the 90's.  Not much to do, no girls (although recently this has changed, being a recent alum, I can attest to this), etc.  Bo can recruit, but in a system in which almost asks of you for 4 years (not many UW kids leave early), he also has many red shirts, kids don't want to do that, they also don't want to play grind it out basketball.

Even in interviews, Trevon Hughes has talked about how his freshman year it was very difficult to get used to, and the reason why he sat a ton his frosh year.

I also think and believe that Bo is pressured by alums and boosters to recruit in house (WI) players.  For some odd reason Wisconsin loves Wisconsin born talent, regardless of if there is greener pastures (which there are)

[avid1010]

I know that.  I was just refuting avid's point that he doesn't get top Wisconsin talent.

He doesn't...look at the players that MU has gotten from within the state compared to Bo.  I'll take MU's any day.  So either MU is getting better players, is better at developing player, both, etc. 

I don't get into the recruiting stuff too much, but I'd be very interested to know how hard we recruited the kids you mentioned, and I can't believe we ever looked twice at a player like Jarmuz. 

[GGGG]

He doesn't...look at the players that MU has gotten from within the state compared to Bo.  I'll take MU's any day.  So either MU is getting better players, is better at developing player, both, etc. 

Top state players recruited in the Bo Ryan era (and I had forgotten some in a previous post):

MU:  Novak, Matthews, Blue

UW:  Butch, Steimsma, Landry, Hughes, Nankivil, Jarmuz, Anderson, Gasser, and a number of others.

My recollection is we went hard after Butch, Steimsma, Landry, Hughes and Anderson.  UW went hard after Novak, Matthews and Blue.

To me, it's pretty much a toss up.  We probably don't go after them as hard, especially with the early verbals like Steimsma and Anderson gave.  However, you have a McDs All American and another NBAish player in Landry.

It's just silly to say that Bo can't recruit Wisconsin.

[Mayor McCheese]

Top state players recruited in the Bo Ryan era (and I had forgotten some in a previous post):

MU:  Novak, Matthews, Blue

UW:  Butch, Steimsma, Landry, Hughes, Nankivil, Jarmuz, Anderson, Gasser, and a number of others.

My recollection is we went hard after Butch, Steimsma, Landry, Hughes and Anderson.  UW went hard after Novak, Matthews and Blue.

To me, it's pretty much a toss up.  We probably don't go after them as hard, especially with the early verbals like Steimsma and Anderson gave.  However, you have a McDs All American and another NBAish player in Landry.

It's just silly to say that Bo can't recruit Wisconsin.

Throw in Maymon for MU... although he isn't with us anymore

Some of those players that you put with UW are questionable "top" recruits... Jarmuz... Gasser... even Anderson isn't very impressive

[GGGG]

Throw in Maymon for MU... although he isn't with us anymore

Some of those players that you put with UW are questionable "top" recruits... Jarmuz... Gasser... even Anderson isn't very impressive

Yeah...I forgot about Maymon!   

I will defend Anderson because both programs were interested.  The other two are fine to leave out.  But essentially if you look at the top 3 that each program wanted, and only one got, it is essentially a toss up (Matthews, Novak, Blue) v. (Butch, Landry, Steimsma)

[Mayor McCheese]

Yeah...I forgot about Maymon!   

I will defend Anderson because both programs were interested.  The other two are fine to leave out.  But essentially if you look at the top 3 that each program wanted, and only one got, it is essentially a toss up (Matthews, Novak, Blue) v. (Butch, Landry, Steimsma)

Yes... but is landing Steimsma and Butch really Bo recruiting.. or more of "I live in a Wisconsin city where the WHOLE TOWN wants me to go to Wisconsin so I have no other choice".. lots of times players here in Wisconsin are pressured to go to Wisconsin for athletics because.. It's Wisconsin, It's Wisconsin and really, they don't have another choice

[GGGG]

Yes... but is landing Steimsma and Butch really Bo recruiting.. or more of "I live in a Wisconsin city where the WHOLE TOWN wants me to go to Wisconsin so I have no other choice".. lots of times players here in Wisconsin are pressured to go to Wisconsin for athletics because.. It's Wisconsin, It's Wisconsin and really, they don't have another choice

What?  How many conditions are you going to put on the argument? 

First, I'm told that Bo can't recruit Wisconsin....but then I list a bunch of players that shows that he can.  Second, I'm told that MU gets better players...but then I show that this isn't really the case.  And now finally, I'm told that it has nothing to do with Bo...it's because poor little Greg Steimsma would never be able to show his face in Randolph again if he chose MU over UW.

Seriously, it would be nice if people would just admit they were wrong once in awhile.

[LON]

What?  How many conditions are you going to put on the argument? 

First, I'm told that Bo can't recruit Wisconsin....but then I list a bunch of players that shows that he can.  Second, I'm told that MU gets better players...but then I show that this isn't really the case.  And now finally, I'm told that it has nothing to do with Bo...it's because poor little Greg Steimsma would never be able to show his face in Randolph again if he chose MU over UW.

Seriously, it would be nice if people would just admit they were wrong once in awhile.

You've mentioned that you lived in Madison before, but in the smaller towns in Wisconsin this does happen.

I don't have a horse in this race, just sayin'

[GGGG]

You've mentioned that you lived in Madison before, but in the smaller towns in Wisconsin this does happen.

I have never heard about this happening once....not once.  In fact, my experience is that if the small town kid choses a different school, the town is more apt to adopt that school as the one they follow rather than shunning the kid.

That's what happened in Wausaukee with Anthony Pieper.  People on this board have told me that when Al recruited a kid from up north somewhere (Merril?  Antigo?) that the same thing happened.

[LON]

I have never heard about this happening once....not once.  In fact, my experience is that if the small town kid choses a different school, the town is more apt to adopt that school as the one they follow rather than shunning the kid.

That's what happened in Wausaukee with Anthony Pieper.  People on this board have told me that when Al recruited a kid from up north somewhere (Merril?  Antigo?) that the same thing happened.

That could be the case for those that play ball.  For those that just go to MU over UW, the backlash is surprising, to say the least.

[GGGG]

That could be the case for those that play ball.  For those that just go to MU over UW, the backlash is surprising, to say the least.

First, I do not believe that this happens on even an occasional basis.  Second, since we are talking about kids that "play ball," it is irrelevant to the discussion anyway.

[LON]

First, I do not believe that this happens on even an occasional basis.  Second, since we are talking about kids that "play ball," it is irrelevant to the discussion anyway.

That's fine.  I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

I'm convinced you didn't grow up in WI, though.  Or if you did, it certainly wasn't in a place as small as Merrill or Antigo.

EDIT:  I'm not saying the community openly shuns them.  It's more subtle than that.  But it's there.

[GGGG]

That's fine.  I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

I'm convinced you didn't grow up in WI, though.  Or if you did, it certainly wasn't in a place as small as Merrill or Antigo.

I grew up in Madison.  However, I have family all over the state...big cities and small towns...a couple of which went to MU.  I have not heard of one instance of any sort of backlash against them.  I know growing up in Madison, I got a lot of "why Marquette???" comments, but that's about it.

[LON]

I grew up in Madison.  However, I have family all over the state...big cities and small towns...a couple of which went to MU.  I have not heard of one instance of any sort of backlash against them.  I know growing up in Madison, I got a lot of "why Marquette???" comments, but that's about it.

Fair enough. 

I've got nothing more on this, as I've already went further than my original post intended.

[Litehouse]

I have to agree with Lance on this, and it's kind of absurd to think otherwise.  There's always pressure on local top athletes to go to the big State U.  In a state like WI with only one big state school, there's even more pressure on them, especially if they're from outside the Milwaukee area, and especially since UW remembered they have a basketball program a little over 10 years ago.  I remember reading stories about Butch saying random people would come up and tell him he should go to Wisconsin.  I know Diener got a lot of crap, but he was a different breed since he was heckled his entire HS career because of the redshirting issue.  UW didn't even want Maymon, and look at the reception he got when he played at the Kohl Center this year.