Crean Article on espn.com

[4everwarriors]

Rican is perceptive and dead on. Just watch this cat on the sidelines during games. It's a show in itself. Either his act is completely choreographed or he doesn't take his Ritalin on gamedays.

[NavinRJohnson]

If Josh Selby end up at IU, it saves Crean.  If he doesn't get Selby, then that PG from Indianapolis, Maquis Teague, is a must get for Crean.  If he loses out on both of those kids, then the fan base loses patience.  Until then, Crean is probably safe. 

Though I don't see Selby ending up at IU, the larger point is accurate and what its all about for Crean. If the best players in the state escape, his goose will be cooked (especially if Teague ends up at Purdue or UK). He's done 'ok' but there are some big fish out there.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Though I don't see Selby ending up at IU, the larger point is accurate and what its all about for Crean. If the best players in the state escape, his goose will be cooked (especially if Teague ends up at Purdue or UK). He's done 'ok' but there are some big fish out there.

Selby is not going to IU.  Purdue isn't going to get him either.  Just as no one in state is going to get JP Tokoto in the state of Wisconsin.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The lesson is that he's all sizzle and no steak. Yes, he served Marquette well. Yes, we did well, very well. At a certain point it was time for him to move on though, although I didn't realize it at the time, but now I think MU is better off with Buzz. I'll agree he has a long leash, but let's not forget this is IU, where patience from the community is commensurate with tournament wins.

Edit: I also thought the part in the article referencing Crean's addiction to diet coke was pretty funny.

I don't disagree that we might be better off without Crean....he did what we needed him to do and did it well at MU.  Whether we're better off with Buzz, well we'll see.  Crean's departure isn't a big deal to me, at some point it happens to everyone and the timing was about right (I thought it would be a year later).

Whether he's all sizzle and no steak, who knows.  I have to laugh at all you guys pretending to know how IU thinks.  Yeah, it's IU, but yeah....it's a devastated IU that was dragged through the mud in an epic way.  

As for Buzz lasting longer than Crean, could easily see that but could easily see it not happening, too.  Buzz has bounced around a lot of jobs in his career but he's in a spot now that might never be better for him.  

[The Lens]

Selby is not going to IU.  Purdue isn't going to get him either.  Just as no one in state is going to get JP Tokoto in the state of Wisconsin.

Thank you, you just made my point.  MU and UW are not IU.  TC was right "It's Indiana".  It's a top 5 school.  It's supposed to be able to ward off UNC, KU and Duke poachers.  Last year I give him a pass, but why didn't he have a Top 5 recruiting class full of McD's All-Americans for this season?  I know Creek was injured but they weren't special with him.  Theoretically they chould have rolled out a Fab 5 type team this season.  He was selling 4 years of PT!  TC was a very good coach for MU (though he didn't walk on water...like some...thought) but he is proving to be average for IU.  A program of that stature shouldn't aspire to the NIT in Year #3. It's Indy Freaking Ana!.

PS A lot of this is a joke b/c these "articles" were written by click driven bloggers.  Katz & Davis they're not.

[jmayer1]

Thank you, you just made my point.  MU and UW are not IU.  TC was right "It's Indiana".  It's a top 5 school.  It's supposed to be able to ward off UNC, KU and Duke poachers.  Last year I give him a pass, but why didn't he have a Top 5 recruiting class full of McD's All-Americans for this season?  I know Creek was injured but they weren't special with him.  Theoretically they chould have rolled out a Fab 5 type team this season.  He was selling 4 years of PT!  TC was a very good coach for MU (though he didn't walk on water...like some...thought) but he is proving to be average for IU.  A program of that stature shouldn't aspire to the NIT in Year #3. It's Indy Freaking Ana!.

PS A lot of this is a joke b/c these "articles" were written by click driven bloggers.  Katz & Davis they're not.

Agree with this 1000%.  IU, IU is a top 5 program all-time.  They are supposed to be able to steal stars out of other programs' backyards, not vice versa.

[HoopsMalone]

Selby is not going to IU.  Purdue isn't going to get him either.  Just as no one in state is going to get JP Tokoto in the state of Wisconsin.

I thought Selby was Maryland?   Teague is the home town kid that Crean needs to get.  I have a few relatives in Indiana (who are not IU fans, but rather ND) but there is an assumption amongst people in Indiana that they should pull their own.  Josh McRoberts to Duke and Greg Oden and Mike Conelly to OSU did not sit well with the fan base.  Crean better get Teague.  He actually did very well in getting Diener and DJ and coaching Cordell Henry at MU for talking points in his recruiting of PGs.

[HoopsMalone]

I think I would give Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, and UNC the top 4.  So IU would be battling Duke for the 5th spot and maybe Michigan State all time.

Now, though I think Duke is clearly the 5th best overall program and the top 5 elite teams. 
I would put teams like IU, MSU, UConn, and Syracuse in a second category. 
Then a team like Marquette, Illinois, Villanova, Texas, etc. in a category 3. 

These groupings are obviously debatable.  IU is still a step up from MU, but I don't know if it is elite enough to be considered in the same category as Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, UNC, and Duke.  Their elite status may have been more of a function of having a smart coach who could recruit in Bob Knight. 

[The Lens]

I think I would give Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, and UNC the top 4.  So IU would be battling Duke for the 5th spot and maybe Michigan State all time.

Now, though I think Duke is clearly the 5th best overall program and the top 5 elite teams. 
I would put teams like IU, MSU, UConn, and Syracuse in a second category. 
Then a team like Marquette, Illinois, Villanova, Texas, etc. in a category 3. 

These groupings are obviously debatable.  IU is still a step up from MU, but I don't know if it is elite enough to be considered in the same category as Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, UNC, and Duke.  Their elite status may have been more of a function of having a smart coach who could recruit in Bob Knight. 

MSU?  They had Magic and then Izzo. 
UCLA?  They did a lot of soul searcing (and some winning) between Wooden and Howland

And I would love to see you say IU's success stems from Bobby Knight to an older NBA alum like Jon McGlocklin.  He'd go crazy.  As great as Bobby Knight was, IU is bigger than Knight.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thank you, you just made my point.  MU and UW are not IU.  TC was right "It's Indiana".  It's a top 5 school.  It's supposed to be able to ward off UNC, KU and Duke poachers.  Last year I give him a pass, but why didn't he have a Top 5 recruiting class full of McD's All-Americans for this season?  I know Creek was injured but they weren't special with him.  Theoretically they chould have rolled out a Fab 5 type team this season.  He was selling 4 years of PT!  TC was a very good coach for MU (though he didn't walk on water...like some...thought) but he is proving to be average for IU.  A program of that stature shouldn't aspire to the NIT in Year #3. It's Indy Freaking Ana!.

PS A lot of this is a joke b/c these "articles" were written by click driven bloggers.  Katz & Davis they're not.

Historically, yes, but we all know that's not true right now.  He was thinking longer term, bigger picture.  There is no doubt in anyone's mind in America that if IU gets going again, it will be easier to recruit there, easier to win a national title there.  That's the reason you go there.  Right now, that's not the situation

The administration there, from all of my contacts, have been absolutely firm that ZERO short cuts be taken.  As a result, it will be a longer process than what these other schools are doing who have no standards whatsoever.

[jmayer1]

Historically, yes, but we all know that's not true right now.  He was thinking longer term, bigger picture.  There is no doubt in anyone's mind in America that if IU gets going again, it will be easier to recruit there, easier to win a national title there.  That's the reason you go there.  Right now, that's not the situation

The administration there, from all of my contacts, have been absolutely firm that ZERO short cuts be taken.  As a result, it will be a longer process than what these other schools are doing who have no standards whatsoever.

I believe you are simply making excuses.  It is IU.  It is a top 5 program all-time.  Why shouldn't they be able to pull in big recruits (especially in-state recruits) year-in and year-out without taking short cuts? 

ND has been down in football for a long time.  However, they have still managed to bring in big-time recruits year-in and year-out based on the history there, despite the ineptitude of the coaching staff and the recent struggles.  Why shouldn't IU fans expect the same?

On a side note, I think IU could have been fairly decent this year if they still had Jordan Crawford (transfer), Eli Holman (transfer), Jamarcus Ellis (kicked off, subsequently sought reinstatement and denied) and Armon Bassett (same as Ellis) around.  Unfortunately for the IU faithful, those players either didn't want to stick it out with the new coach or weren't allowed back by the coach/administration (who knows the exact reasons, may or may not have been warranted).  However, the idea that IU was completely bare of talent when the new coach was hired is a half-truth.

[Lennys Tap]

Are you devoid of facts today.

Crean's first year they returned ONE PLAYER who played 36 minutes total and averaged less than 2 points.  How is that "a LOT MORE TALENT" than Pastner had at Memphis in his first year when Pastner returned:

Doneal Mack started 32 games last year....that already blows your argument to hell

Plus Duke transfer Eliott Williams that didn't have to sit out a year due to his mom's illness.

You're reaching.  No way in hell IU in year one had more talent than Pastner's Memphis year one, it's not even close.

There was talent left at IU. (Eli Holman and Jordan Crawford for instance) Just not talent that wanted to play for Tom Crean. Guys who actually transferred not who were merely released from their LOIs. I know how insistent you were in this regard toward Buzz. Why not toward TC?

[HoopsMalone]

MSU?  They had Magic and then Izzo. 
UCLA?  They did a lot of soul searcing (and some winning) between Wooden and Howland

And I would love to see you say IU's success stems from Bobby Knight to an older NBA alum like Jon McGlocklin.  He'd go crazy.  As great as Bobby Knight was, IU is bigger than Knight.

Starting with Magic Johnson is not a trivial place to start.  Having him gives MSU's program a big bump, like Wade does for MU.  He is one of the best players to ever lace them up and having him and the winning that Izzo (with Crean's help) has done puts them into the conversation for top 10 programs.  Indiana has won a lot of titles, many under Knight, so its probably ahead of MSU but it is not insane to mention them in the same sentence as Indiana IMO, though the championships, Bob Knight, etc. probably put Indiana ahead of MSU in the end. 

Why would you question UCLA? Ranking teams are subjective, but UCLA is probably the best program of all time based on championships under Wooden, winning a championship in the 1990s, made final fours in this past decade and in 1980. 

Indiana was very good before Knight, no doubt.  He was a very big reason for their sustained success though and Davis, Sampson, and Crean are no replacements for him.  I guess to clarify my point about Knight creating success at IU is that it does not seem like kids right now look at IU and desire to go there like they would UNC or Kentucky anymore.  IU is like Illinois in the last 20 years for the most part and that is what people born after 1980 might see. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I believe you are simply making excuses.  It is IU.  It is a top 5 program all-time.  Why shouldn't they be able to pull in big recruits (especially in-state recruits) year-in and year-out without taking short cuts? 

ND has been down in football for a long time.  However, they have still managed to bring in big-time recruits year-in and year-out based on the history there, despite the ineptitude of the coaching staff and the recent struggles.  Why shouldn't IU fans expect the same?

On a side note, I think IU could have been fairly decent this year if they still had Jordan Crawford (transfer), Eli Holman (transfer), Jamarcus Ellis (kicked off, subsequently sought reinstatement and denied) and Armon Bassett (same as Ellis) around.  Unfortunately for the IU faithful, those players either didn't want to stick it out with the new coach or weren't allowed back by the coach/administration (who knows the exact reasons, may or may not have been warranted).  However, the idea that IU was completely bare of talent when the new coach was hired is a half-truth.

His first recruiting class was a very good recruiting class, top 10 in some surveys.  His second class was not.  Those guys that transferred or were kicked off did so for a clear reason.....let's just say they wouldn't have survived if they hadn't for all but one of them.   And I know many of the reasons from my contacts there.

And no, they were completely barren of talent because the direction was to clean house almost entirely.  Which is what they did, this is why there was no talent left.  Absolutely, bare bones...NONE.  1 kid, 36 total minutes logged.  That was it.  They wanted to keep a couple more kids, but that was it.  The few kids that they would have been willing to hang on to, didn't want to because of the pending NCAA infractions and it wasn't their coach.  Same reason why we had so many kids leave when Buzz was hired....he wasn't "their" coach.

These comparisons I see to other schools is hilarious and complete absurd.  Memphis had a starting senior come back and a transfer from Duke in Pastner's first year.  They also had 4 highly regarded recruits that committed to Memphis and kept their commitment.  Far different than the IU situation.   Kentucky was the same way, they were a post season team last year already, Coach Cal brought in a few great recruits that originally were going to Memphis with him, no sanctions at UK to deal with.  Totally different story.  Plus, UK by their very hiring of Coach Cal has said they are willing to take a risk.  IU, by their very hiring of TC has said, NO RISKS, NO SHORT CUTS.  Totally different scenarios, and COMPLETELY different  administrations and philosophies.

Crean's make it or break it year is his 2012 recruiting class.  That's really what it comes down to.  They may only win 1 or 2 more games this year.  Next year Creek comes back, they're all going to be sophomores and juniors, they will have played in his system for awhile.  They lose Dumas which will be addition by subtraction.

[ChicosBailBonds]

There was talent left at IU. (Eli Holman and Jordan Crawford for instance) Just not talent that wanted to play for Tom Crean. Guys who actually transferred not who were merely released from their LOIs. I know how insistent you were in this regard toward Buzz. Why not toward TC?

One of them yes, the other one was gone no matter what....the administration was saying no more soup for you.

And I did acknowledge this fact.  But you also forget that IU was going on probation, another reason to leave for the players that don't want to deal with that.  MU was not....a huge difference.

[jmayer1]

And no, they were completely barren of talent because the direction was to clean house almost entirely.  Which is what they did, this is why there was no talent left.  Absolutely, bare bones...NONE.  1 kid, 36 total minutes logged.  That was it.  They wanted to keep a couple more kids, but that was it.  The few kids that they would have been willing to hang on to, didn't want to because of the pending NCAA infractions and it wasn't their coach.  Same reason why we had so many kids leave when Buzz was hired....he wasn't "their" coach.

Please define the "many" kids that left when Buzz was hired.  Two recruits left when Buzz was hired.  That's it.  Not a single current player left due to Buzz being hired (Trevor stuck around the whole summer before leaving for who knows what reason).

Crawford and Holman could not be convinced by the new IU coach to stick around, plain and simple.  What the exact reason for that can be debated but neither wanted to stay at IU.  From most accounts Ellis and Bassett would have been able to remain academically eligble with a little work over the summer but they were refused reinstatement.  So, to say that IU was completely barren of talent when they hired the new coach is a half truth.

I heard all this from my "insiders" and "friends" at IU, MU, KU, GB, UCLA, USC, NFL, Dallas, Kentucky....etc.  I just felt I should come on here and correct the facts while making up a few of my own and interjecting my useless opinion in nearly every topic on this board.  Go figure! 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Please define the "many" kids that left when Buzz was hired.  Two recruits left when Buzz was hired.  That's it.  Not a single current player left due to Buzz being hired (Trevor stuck around the whole summer before leaving for who knows what reason).

Crawford and Holman could not be convinced by the new IU coach to stick around, plain and simple.  What the exact reason for that can be debated but neither wanted to stay at IU.  From most accounts Ellis and Bassett would have been able to remain academically eligble with a little work over the summer but they were refused reinstatement.  So, to say that IU was completely barren of talent when they hired the new coach is a half truth.

I heard all this from my "insiders" and "friends" at IU, MU, KU, GB, UCLA, USC, NFL, Dallas, Kentucky....etc.  I just felt I should come on here and correct the facts while making up a few of my own and interjecting my useless opinion in nearly every topic on this board.  Go figure! 

Nick Williams
Scott Christopherson (he was a current player, so you're wrong there)
Tyshawn Taylor (he was a current player, so you're wrong there)
Trevor Mbakwe

I'd consider that many, perhaps you don't.  I do.

I worked for the IU athletic department, know some folks there....you don't know all the facts.  I'll leave it at that.

[The Lens]

Nick Williams
Scott Christopherson (he was a current player, so you're wrong there)
Tyshawn Taylor (he was a current player, so you're wrong there)
Trevor Mbakwe

I'd consider that many, perhaps you don't.  I do.

I worked for the IU athletic department, know some folks there....you don't know all the facts.  I'll leave it at that.

So Buzz was not as effective of a recruiter as the esteemed Mike Deane who "convinced" Aaron Hutchins, Zac McCall and Richard Shaw to stay?  Or maybe that had something to do with KO telling them they were honoring their commitment to MU.  Something TC didn't.

[jmayer1]

Nick Williams
Scott Christopherson (he was a current player, so you're wrong there)
Tyshawn Taylor (he was a current player, so you're wrong there)
Trevor Mbakwe

I'd consider that many, perhaps you don't.  I do.

Forgot about Christopherson, although I don't think he was a huge loss.

Tyshawn Taylor was not a current player.  He was still in HS.  He was a recruit, just as Nick Williams was.

Mbakwe did not leave when Buzz was hired.  He left 4 months later, after going through all the summer workouts.  I believe he was gone regardless of who was coaching but who knows what was going on in his head.

So, 1 current player left due to Buzz being hired and 2 recruits decided to go elsewhere (2 also stayed committed).  No, I don't consider that "many" kids.

I worked for the IU athletic department, know some folks there....you don't know all the facts.  I'll leave it at that.

Congratulations on working in a lower-level position in the athletics department at IU a variety of years ago.  I doubt any "knowledge" your "contacts" there give you can't be found by a simple google search or perusal of the IU message boards.  If I'm wrong, why don't you divulge some of this "information"? This stuff happened nearly a year and a half ago and you're not some journalist trying to protect your sources.  I'll leave it at that.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So Buzz was not as effective of a recruiter as the esteemed Mike Deane who "convinced" Aaron Hutchins, Zac McCall and Richard Shaw to stay?  Or maybe that had something to do with KO telling them they were honoring their commitment to MU.  Something TC didn't.

He asked to name the players, I named the players.

Richard Shaw, where was he going to go...MSOE?

Cheech and Chong....Hutch & McCall....oh the stories I could tell. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Forgot about Christopherson, although I don't think he was a huge loss.

Tyshawn Taylor was not a current player.  He was still in HS.  He was a recruit, just as Nick Williams was.

Mbakwe did not leave when Buzz was hired.  He left 4 months later, after going through all the summer workouts.  I believe he was gone regardless of who was coaching but who knows what was going on in his head.

So, 1 current player left due to Buzz being hired and 2 recruits decided to go elsewhere (2 also stayed committed).  No, I don't consider that "many" kids.

Congratulations on working in a lower-level position in the athletics department at IU a variety of years ago.  I doubt any "knowledge" your "contacts" there give you can't be found by a simple google search or perusal of the IU message boards.  If I'm wrong, why don't you divulge some of this "information"? This stuff happened nearly a year and a half ago and you're not some journalist trying to protect your sources.  I'll leave it at that.

LOL.  4 players, almost 20% of our roster.  You can play semantics on whether they played here or not, the point is they didn't play here after he was hired.  Meaning they left.  They didn't want to play here any longer.  They were less than 6 weeks away from Summer school. 

And yes, you are correct I had a lower level position there at the time....and then years later we did this crazy thing like launch and own 49% of the Big Ten Network....you're right, everything is from a google search, I don't know anyone over there at IU or in the Big Ten office  .    Or dealing with the NCAA on a weekly basis.  Yes, it all comes from a Google search.   

I'm not going to post specific information on a message board.  But when I read something that is completely wrong or only displays 1/2 the story, I'm going to call it out.  There are specific reasons why Crean originally agreed to an 8 year deal and before he even coached ONE GAME was given a 2 year extension....because things were that @#$#@@#$ up over there. And the reasons, without getting too specific on a message board, are simple.  The entire program was basically to be gutted due to the enormous issues internally...academically, athletically, etc, etc.  The players you guys mentioned would come back....get serious.


I'll leave it at that....you simply don't have all the information.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Interesting how NBC's Mike Miller also says he had nothing to work with.  Go figure


http://beyondthearc.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/01/26/2185779.aspx

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Honestly, we should just lock these threads up until 2012, as Crean is probably going to get at least that long barring some sort of major issue.

In 2012, we'll know more about how evil or how great he is.

My bet? The people that don't like him now will still hate him. The people that tolerated him will still be in the middle. The people that liked him will still find reasons to like him.

[Tugg Speedman]

And yes, you are correct I had a lower level position there at the time....and then years later we did this crazy thing like launch and own 49% of the Big Ten Network....you're right, everything is from a go ogle search, I don't know anyone over there at IU or in the Big Ten office .    Or dealing with the NCAA on a weekly basis.  Yes, it all comes from a Go ogle search.   

I'm not going to post specific information on a message board.  But when I read something that is completely wrong or only displays 1/2 the story, I'm going to call it out.  There are specific reasons why Crean originally agreed to an 8 year deal and before he even coached ONE GAME was given a 2 year extension....because things were that @#$#@@#$ up over there. And the reasons, without getting too specific on a message board, are simple.  The entire program was basically to be gutted due to the enormous issues internally...academically, athletically, etc, etc.  The players you guys mentioned would come back....get serious.

CBB, the problem with "contacts" is the just give propaganda.  I work in the investment field and everyone knows you NEVER ask the company official a difficult question as the will give you spin and not "the answer."

So, do you honestly beleive your contacts would say "we screwed the pooch on this hire?"  I doubt it.  They will spin and defend all the way.  If they were willing to say to you, matter of factly, that hiring Crean was a mistake, then the Indy sports reporters would hear it too and would be pounding him in the press everyday.

I'm only impressed by "contracts say" when they admit a mistake.  That is not what is happening here.

[ChicosBailBonds]

CBB, the problem with "contacts" is the just give propaganda.  I work in the investment field and everyone knows you NEVER ask the company official a difficult question as the will give you spin and not "the answer."

So, do you honestly beleive your contacts would say "we screwed the pooch on this hire?"  I doubt it.  They will spin and defend all the way.  If they were willing to say to you, matter of factly, that hiring Crean was a mistake, then the Indy sports reporters would hear it too and would be pounding him in the press everyday.

I'm only impressed by "contracts say" when they admit a mistake.  That is not what is happening here.

Sigh...really.  You really think that program should be turned around in 18 months?  You're kidding yourself.  The reason is that you guys don't know how bad it was internally, the administration does.

Again, this is why he was given an EXTENSION before he coached one game.  That's how totally f'd up it was internally.